Outflux Of People Lately?

[hellstorm]

well let me repharse that yes ads would help it, but it not the only there not only reason the game is not big as it once was.

 

[Nifal]

I would previously would have thought that FFXI's problem was its obvious stagnent nature. I was gone from the game for roughly 2 years. I came back to find that the gear that was "good" gear when I left, was STILL good gear. Its like the game hadn't progressed at all. Sure, some new gear had been introduced, but it wasn't monumental by any means at all. FFXI's player base has however remained pretty consistent. The numbers arent really down, not all that significant at least.
Now, lets take a lesson from WoW. Lets say you've got a lvl 60 toon, all decked out in 'epic' gear. The best of the best. WoW released an expansion upping the lvl cap to 70. All the sudden, your PIMP lvl 60 gear is mediocre compared to the average lvl 62 gear, not to mention how obserdly pathetic compared to the new 'epic' lvl 70 gear.
Since the release of WoW's expansion, their numbers have dropped DRAMATICALLY.

Who knows, maybe SE sorta half-way knows what they're doing.

One thing I do have to say is completely retarded of them however, is that they dont actually release expansions as expansions. They release something for you to buy......but you dont actually get what you paid for until a year or more after the fact. That is completely retarded and needs to change...if they ever make another expansion.

I've decided my problem isn't with FFXI specifically, but with MMO's in general. Its pretty much impossible to walk away saying that i "beat" that game. End game is and forever will be disgustingly monotonous and with out true 'end'. I'll keep playing FFXI for now cause of the RL friends i have that also play, but i doubt i'll ever really get into another. (unless by some miracle they make an MMO based in the world of FF7, i'd be all over that, haha)

:slightly off topic, isn't SE's new MMO gonna be based in the world of FF12? wow that game sucked. leave it up to SE to take a shity solo game that felt like an MMO and acted like an MMO, make it work as an MMO and sell it:
sorry for being all long-winded, peace.

QFT.... Never again after this.

 

[Mishaela]

WoW's problem is their release of crap so much better that it makes all the time/effort put into old stuff a 100% waste of time with every new expansion.

Getting that out of the way, FFXI's big problem is their release of crap is always not even remotely close (or once in a blue moon, very barely better) than things that have already been out for a long time and/or aren't all that difficult to get. The best they typically do is raise the quality of their mediocre gear rather than really ever adding gear that's actually debatably better than old bests.

I love FFXI and I miss playing out, though I do wish they'd fix the drop rates and maybe add gear that makes for some kind of competition towards other gear.

 

[Ruffyreborn]

WoW's problem is their release of crap so much better that it makes all the time/effort put into old stuff a 100% waste of time with every new expansion.

Getting that out of the way, FFXI's big problem is their release of crap is always not even remotely close (or once in a blue moon, very barely better) than things that have already been out for a long time and/or aren't all that difficult to get. The best they typically do is raise the quality of their mediocre gear rather than really ever adding gear that's actually debatably better than old bests.

I love FFXI and I miss playing out, though I do wish they'd fix the drop rates and maybe add gear that makes for some kind of competition towards other gear.

or make the JSE gear ACTUALLY good by dramatically increasing the jobs ability instead of making it act like 6 other jobs.

Thats what kinda puts me off... So many different job choices, but all in all... You may as well have like, 6 different jobs because the rest nearly function the same...

 

[K. Ishitar]

QFT.... Never again after this.

heh yeah, only if i know a few rl friends and good ones at that will i ever play another after ffxi...seriously too much of a sink.

 

[hellstorm]

heh yeah, only if i know a few rl friends and good ones at that will i ever play another after ffxi...seriously too much of a sink.

Well all mmorpg are time sinks, some more then others. Though you do have to remember this is SE first MMO if they made a second I'm sure they would correct the little flaws they have. FFXI is still a pioneer in it style. Yet what sets them apart is also there flaw. FFXI is the only multi console mmo in fact might be the only multi console server game period. However with doing that they have to keep compatible with there lowest quality machine (the ps2.) The way the game design it would be near impossible to raise the lvl cap without destroying certain jobs and making mobs that was challenging, child's play.. Again you are looking at this game the wrong way. It was never the game play that changed, it was the story. I'm sorry, but if you here for just the gear you picked the wrong game. Final Fanasy was always about the story. At times yes they been a bit slow, and yes the gear don't evolve much, but it kind of hard to do that if you can not go past level 75.

 

[Tristam Green]

1.) Yes, I remember seeing FFXI ads, prior to US release. Never with expansions, though. On that same "advertising would help" note, I never once saw advertisements (TV spots in particular) for Guild Wars, and they had 1 million unique accounts by the fifth month of its release.

2.) The only MMO I will ever play again once finished with FFXI is Guild Wars II. I will never again plop down $12.95+/month for a game, when I can get my thirst quenched with a free-play game.

 

[Vilurum]

I would previously would have thought that FFXI's problem was its obvious stagnent nature. I was gone from the game for roughly 2 years. I came back to find that the gear that was "good" gear when I left, was STILL good gear. Its like the game hadn't progressed at all. Sure, some new gear had been introduced, but it wasn't monumental by any means at all. FFXI's player base has however remained pretty consistent. The numbers arent really down, not all that significant at least.
Now, lets take a lesson from WoW. Lets say you've got a lvl 60 toon, all decked out in 'epic' gear. The best of the best. WoW released an expansion upping the lvl cap to 70. All the sudden, your PIMP lvl 60 gear is mediocre compared to the average lvl 62 gear, not to mention how obserdly pathetic compared to the new 'epic' lvl 70 gear.
Since the release of WoW's expansion, their numbers have dropped DRAMATICALLY.

Who knows, maybe SE sorta half-way knows what they're doing.

It's two sides of the same coin. There's no one solution that solves both problems. Big long wordy explanation:

Spoiler:

WoW method: Allow older stuff to become worthless.

Pro: Allows for gear *upgrades*. Actual sense of progression in equipping yourself, not to mention (while sidegrades and situational gear most certainly do exist) *vastly* less inventory clutter. Furthermore allows endgame events to be hierarchical and progressive in a certain order, and actually *need* gear to do them. Allows for raising level caps and flexibility in new abilities.

Con: The issue of pointlessness when an expansion hits every (so far) two years or so. Of course, the gear wasn't pointless when you were actually using it and it was top notch, but you can't just coast on your laurels. (For similar FFXI example, see Thief Knife.) This is, of course, the exact same thing that happens when you outgear a raid instance and move on to the next one, namely you ditch your older stuff for newer stuff. The only difference is that an "I can look down on all you unaccomplished scrubs" ego has to deal with an equalizing factor as the gear field is temporarily levelled for *everyone*, with a new level cap. But raiders don't take very long to outgear casuals again, so this is really only a concern for the short-sighted and insecure.

Both pro and con: Previous endgame events (even within the same expansion, and definitely in regards to stuff from earlier expansions) stop being done as your group's gear progresses on to the next tier. Frees up the time spent on them, so that if you're the sort of person who focuses entirely on cutting edge endgame stuff, you don't have to juggle a gazillion things. And if they were hatefully annoying, then you're glad to be rid of them (hi2u MC/SSC/TK). However, if you enjoyed them, or simply wanted to see the content once, it's difficult to impossible to do them any more.

FFXI method: Refuse to allow older stuff to become worthless.

Pro: The Item XYZ that you worked So Very Hard to obtain is (almost) never going to make you regret the time and effort put into it. Because it'll be just as awesome five expansions down the road as it is now, and you'll still be using it.

Con: You very rarely get anything appreciably *new* or *better*. Minor differences here, sidegrades there, macro piece the other place. Painful inventory clutter, and not made any better by PS2 limitations, inventory/equipment system, or limited (official) equip macro lines. True upgrades only come once in a blue moon, and are earthshaking events. Game encounters stay fairly constant in difficulty, since with lack of significant (or any) level cap, ability, or equipment changes, the player base's potential is pretty much static, so enemy potential also has to remain about the same, or else it's practically or entirely unbeatable.

Both: Same endgame event argument in WoW, just flipped on its head. All past endgame encounters are still worth doing (because, after all, the things that come from them haven't become outdated), and are still done. If you enjoy it or want to see content, you can. On the other hand, there are quite a lot of ways (and ever more ways) to get up to the "gear plateau", and new and seemingly (or actually) annoying endgame events aren't perceived as worth the hassle if they don't offer anything particularly impressive for doing them. See CoP Dynamis. Also, many times you'll need to do this endgame event for that item for that slot, and the other endgame event for the other item for *this* slot, and the time commitments needed to do all of those to gear up everywhere can be very painful.

In summary: (TLDR section)

1. FFXI becomes stagnant. WoW ultimately wastes your effort. Getting anything in either game is ultimately pointless.

2. An accomplishment in FFXI will always stick with you. An accomplishment in WoW actually lets you do new things. Getting anything in either game is beneficial, and (unless we're talking WoW right before an expansion release) will last you quite long enough to get that benefit.

To avoid stagnation, you have to let older accomplishments go to waste. And to keep older accomplishments valuable, you can't allow for upgrades, and thus you stagnate. Can't have your cake and eat it too, so look at whatever game(s) you play in terms of their up side *and* their down side, rather than just whining about the down sides without really thinking about the big picture.

 

[K. Ishitar]

Well all mmorpg are time sinks, some more then others. Though you do have to remember this is SE first MMO if they made a second I'm sure they would correct the little flaws they have. FFXI is still a pioneer in it style. Yet what sets them apart is also there flaw. FFXI is the only multi console mmo in fact might be the only multi console server game period. However with doing that they have to keep compatible with there lowest quality machine (the ps2.) The way the game design it would be near impossible to raise the lvl cap without destroying certain jobs and making mobs that was challenging, child's play.. Again you are looking at this game the wrong way. It was never the game play that changed, it was the story. I'm sorry, but if you here for just the gear you picked the wrong game. Final Fanasy was always about the story. At times yes they been a bit slow, and yes the gear don't evolve much, but it kind of hard to do that if you can not go past level 75.

I didn't really pick it for gear, I picked because I thought it would be fun. Friends make FFXI more fun when most of them leave then you tend to have less fun. If I wanted to play by myself I wouldn't have bought a game to put 14.95 into every month and just bought a regular game.

 

[Trindel]

1. FFXI becomes stagnant. WoW ultimately wastes your effort. Getting anything in either game is ultimately pointless.

Why not just make certain gear thats r/e upgradable? ie. you need to have Zenith Mitts (or whatever) first and use it as part of a recipe to make something better? You would still have to get said gear from gods, hnm, Sea, whatever first, then upgrade it. Maybe lower the lvl to use said gear a smidge (2-5 levels)and then make the upgraded gear lvl 75 only? This could do away with the de-valuation (yes a new word, I should copyright it asap) of already standing gear, couldnt it? Tack in some new quests or NMS to kill to get the other items needed to upgrade and Viola', FFXI has become fresh and new again. Couldnt this work in theory?

 

[Khajit]

It sounds suspiciously like SE tried that with AF+1
that in turn sounds like SE has been trying to unstagnate us but thanks to them not knowing how the game is played they failed horribly for some jobs and unsheathed massive win for others.

 

[Vilurum]

Why not just make certain gear thats r/e upgradable? ie. you need to have Zenith Mitts (or whatever) first and use it as part of a recipe to make something better? You would still have to get said gear from gods, hnm, Sea, whatever first, then upgrade it. Maybe lower the lvl to use said gear a smidge (2-5 levels)and then make the upgraded gear lvl 75 only? This could do away with the de-valuation (yes a new word, I should copyright it asap) of already standing gear, couldnt it? Tack in some new quests or NMS to kill to get the other items needed to upgrade and Viola', FFXI has become fresh and new again. Couldnt this work in theory?

In theory, yes. In fact, it's even been executed in practice. Take existing endgame gear called AF2. Jump through some hoops of an awesome new challenge called CoP Dynamis (and don't forget the million gil price tag and the fact that it shuts you out of other Dynamis areas for 3 days) to have a very slim chance at your almighty souped-up upgrades... with maybe 1 more on one or two stats, and not necessarily the more useful stats on the item. And that's assuming the AF2 had good stat distribution to begin with.

(They did a better job of it - at least, for some jobs - with Limbus and AF to AF+1 upgrades. But that was because they were actually willing to re-itemize some mid-level gear to be endgame gear and thus actually make the upgraded thing have good stats.)

So yes, in theory it's a perfectly sound idea. In practice, SE has yet to demonstrate a very good understanding of good itemization or of benefit vs. time investment. If you can get a good item in X hours, or you can upgrade a not so good item to a still not so good item in 5X hours, which of those two events are you actually going to do?

 

[Whimsey]

Isn't this also sort of how the Salvage gear works? I haven't done Salvage yet, though it looks like a blast.

 

[hellstorm]

I didn't really pick it for gear, I picked because I thought it would be fun. Friends make FFXI more fun when most of them leave then you tend to have less fun. If I wanted to play by myself I wouldn't have bought a game to put 14.95 into every month and just bought a regular game.

Well yes fun is the ultimate goal. However while old friends may leave there always a lot more that stay.
As for the 14.95 it actually one the reason I join this game. A new game will cost you 40-50 bucks. that roughly 2-3 months worth of game, and I don't know about you but back in the ps2 era you could beat a new game in less then a month(some times the same day). So in the long term 14.95 is a pretty sound investment.

It sounds suspiciously like SE tried that with AF+1
that in turn sounds like SE has been trying to unstagnate us but thanks to them not knowing how the game is played they failed horribly for some jobs and unsheathed massive win for others.

I agree with that is some token. SE is still trying to there version of this game. The problem is the player base don't know what the vision is. SE needs to start letting some the cats out of the bag, and stop talking in riddle like that world turning AV video.

Isn't this also sort of how the Salvage gear works? I haven't done Salvage yet, though it looks like a blast.

Salvage can be fun if you have a group that knows what they are doing. There alot times where you will go into a battle and will come out with nothing. Yet like limbus it much shorter then most endgame and the reward can are good, just a bit pricey.

 

[neophytal]

You as a player, are forced to take breaks from this game/server. Be it a few days, weeks or months. Or you won't survive to see the end.

so very true. I've been on break mode some lately with RL stuff.

 

[Valandil]

Why not just make certain gear thats r/e upgradable? ie. you need to have Zenith Mitts (or whatever) first and use it as part of a recipe to make something better? You would still have to get said gear from gods, hnm, Sea, whatever first, then upgrade it. Maybe lower the lvl to use said gear a smidge (2-5 levels)and then make the upgraded gear lvl 75 only? This could do away with the de-valuation (yes a new word, I should copyright it asap) of already standing gear, couldnt it? Tack in some new quests or NMS to kill to get the other items needed to upgrade and Viola', FFXI has become fresh and new again. Couldnt this work in theory?

I was pretty much going to say the same thing in response to Vil's post, which was going to be:

Read most of your post and agree with it. Even though I have never played WoW, I have heard that WoW and LotRO (which I do play) are virtually identical, especially with regards to the release of new gear. However, there is one solution that could reconciel the WoW method of dramatic gear improvement and the FFXI method of keeping old gear useful, and it's very simple. Instead of releasing entirely new items that replace old items, just make it so that you can upgrade the old items into new items. This would make it so that all the time and effort you put into getting a (Joyeuse for example--just from personal experience) is not lost when a new expansion is released because you can take that Joyeuse, along with some new crafting material from the expansion, to an NPC and essentially make it into a Joyeuse+1, etc. Also, we shouldn't look at SE's implementation of this kind of method as the paradigm example of how to do it. In fact, most of what SE has done with FFXI is how NOT to do things.


p.s.- Trindel, devaluation is already a word, sorry.

 

[Trindel]

p.s.- Trindel, devaluation is already a word, sorry.

Damnit!!:banghead3:

 

[Sirelrohir]

I dont post often here anymore, but this post caught my eye. There are definatly marked differences between the two games, one of which is play style. If people feel as thought one game has lost its luster, it might be worthwhile to check out the other.

In my personal experience, I have found that I enjoy wow over ff in a number of catagories. First the leveling is faster, and not dependant on other people. You can always team up with others of course, but you are not at the mercy of tanks or healers. Secondly, quests and missions in final fantasy, while challenging, dont offer much in terms of monetary rewards or experience. In wow, you finish a quest, get a decent amount of xp, and usually get an item that will help you level even quicker to get to end game. In final fantasy, you usually have to be pretty far progressed to get nice gear from missions/quests(such as Cop rings, or ZA earrings).

My biggest reason for not coming back to ff is basically the state of end game. As though leveling wasn't tedious enough, camping a mob for 8+ hours was even worse. One reason is the fact that you dont have a 100% chance of claim due to various reasons (both legal and illegal). Another reason was that you are at the mercy of the ToD. It is a much more efficient use of my time to know I am going to be raiding for 3-4 hours on a given night, then have to wait upwards of 8 hours on a possible claim.

As for the gear...I understand vil's point of it being a achievement to get that gear. But land kings gear has been out for how long now? 4 years? And it's still pretty much the best you can get? Thats not stagnation... thats rigor mortis. Anyway, I digress. There are flaws in both games, people have to just find the one that they have more fun with.

 

[Legomyeggo]

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html

Googled that shit up. Laffo at WoW dominating everything. YOU'RE ALMOST THERE RUNESCAPE. JUST ANOTHER 8,750,000 OR SO TO GO. Look at that stagnant 500,000 for FFXI. That shows some true dedicated weeaboos at work. STACKIN DAT PAPER. FARMIN SKY FOR ANOTHA YEAR OR TWO MORE. WADDUP BROTHA.

 

[Tyrath]

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html

Googled that shit up. Laffo at WoW dominating everything. YOU'RE ALMOST THERE RUNESCAPE. JUST ANOTHER 8,750,000 OR SO TO GO. Look at that stagnant 500,000 for FFXI. That shows some true dedicated weeaboos at work. STACKIN DAT PAPER. FARMIN SKY FOR ANOTHA YEAR OR TWO MORE. WADDUP BROTHA.

I don't think stagnant is the right term when its been constant for years.