PCC vs Chiv. Chain

Then all parsing is completely meaningless, because you will NEVER achieve even close to controlled conditions to make the data accurate. Total damage is the easiest to throw off and therefore the least accurate, because there's so much that could throw off the results. Hell, all of the problems you listed with using per fight damage also applies to total damage, but at an even greater rate since you also have to factor in down time. Per fight damage has some of the same source problems, but it's still superior because it has less factors that can throw-off the results.

Please re-read the manner in which I said the parser should be used. Your post shows that you didn't read it or didn't understand it. You are exactly wrong by 180 degrees. Forgive me, I'm not trying to be an ass, no one is correct 100% of the time. However, scientific methodology is only debatable to those who do not understand it.

My opinions on the PCC vs. CC are just that, opinions. However, the scientific method has been around for hundreds of years and is not open for debate. All parsed data in this game is questionable due to the fact that you cannot control all the variables. However, my system allows for the least variance (of anything I've see posted) because you compare your damage against yourself, it completely removes down-time and the damage dealt by others.

Allow me to try to explain it again:

There is no down time in the equation, because you do not count the time between fights.

You compare your own damage in one set of gear against vs your own damage in another set of gear. This avoids the mistake of comparison to a non-standardized measure (ie, another player).

You avoid the pitfall of looking at Hit%, Crits, damage spikes, etc. These are all a means to an end, and that end is damage. If they don't generate more damage, then they are meaningless. Obviously they will generate damage, but sometimes one gets over-blown at the expense the others. This can potentially hurt total DoT, which is the ultimate goal.

You are freed from the limit of the mobs' HP, both actual and relative HP (ie, the HP's left after the other pt members' damage). Comparing damage per fight is totally skewed by the actual and relative HP's.

If you still don't see these benefits, then go smack your high school science teacher.
 
Total damage IS the only worth of looking at a parser. If you look at damage per fight and are solo, you have the false ceiling of the mob's HP. And if you are in a pt and look at damage per fight, you are still competeing with the uncontrolled variables of 5 other party members. Who gets hasted? Who's not using Berserk every time it's available? You have no idea, or at least no control. Any time you look at parser data and do not look at strictly DoT (true damage/second of actual combat), you are fooling yourself. Plus, downtime is sometimes minimal and consistent in a good pt, but more often than not people will get up to use the bathroom, get a drink, etc. It's just another uncontrolled variable.

Scientific principle calls for one variable that is altered in a controlled manner, and all other factors are constant. Now, the nature of the game does not allow for control over all the variables, but why would you sabotage your study by not controlling the variables that you can?
The same applies to you since some mages just dont consistently haste players all the time. I've had fights where I'm never hasted but the mnk is 50% of the time in some of the less favourable pickups i've been stuck in. The same inconsitency with haste or march/minuet can happen to you.

Not only that but how fast are you clicking the stopwatch? If you're too slow you are negating the purpose of the stopwatch but if you have it in your hands then you obviously arent playing to the best of your ability. Human timing in races is only accurate to within 0.8-0.2 seconds max(guestimate from this one time I noticed that if I timed the same event on a stopwatch repeatedly reaction times weren't very consitent back in high school that happens to be somewhat generous) using the very same stopwatch method you are descibing hence computers are used for timing now.
By using the stopwatch you are subjecting your test to human error which is the very variable you are trying to eliminate.
Even assuming you are the most accurate human in existence there are still human variables that can mess with that like another party moving in and forcing you to hit the more squishy or higher defense/vit mobs or dia being cast a second slower ect ect the list goes on.
Back to the pcc debate.

Judging from your overall aguments you are a sushi based DD. of course you're gonna have too much acc if you stack on pure acc gear while eating sushi. You also comment on how much acuracy gear is availiable. With so much accuracy availiable why cant you put the acc in one of the only slots that doesnt have a different alternative availiable while using a meat build?

Yes a PCC wont make or break a meat build but no one peice makes a players gear execptional either. It's stacking the various peices of gear together in a fashion for your tasks as a player. PCC is simply in the most efficient slot to add in the acc since any other slot has either a signifigant atk+ or haste boosting alternative and it is generally smarter to add in the acc in the place that least affects other stats you want to keep boosted up.
If you try to add in +acc in other slots then you are generally losing out on alot more for that acc. That is the issue. You are losing out on some or more +atk/+str,haste,+kick,storetp ect every time you add in acc in a different slot using acc gear in another slot over just using the PCC and having the acc in there or snipers to a lesser degree.

Your rebuttal of the just wear an str ring and PCC argument is flawed for this reason because they are the only slots left where it wouldnt be retarded to swap out stuff. Do you know anyone that will swap out a turban/hauby/kote/duskpeice/Byakko's haidate/haste peice of gear in exchange for 5 accuracy instead of just changing snipers? Snipers rings dont have haste/atk/ect bonuses attached to them. They are the only real chioces for maintaining the same level of acuracy when changing chiv chan and pcc. Where are you going to lose an extra 5 acc in your gear besides the snipers while boosting str/anything else?

I personally find people that arent war, mnk, or rng using str rings just sad because those 3 jobs have signifigant accuracy bonuses availiable to them that allow them to not need as much acc for certain duration if the other slots are maxed on much other things.
another point. All of your arguments seem to assume people are wearing str rings over snipers in a sushi build as well.
so the acc+5 ppc gives over cc is tiny in a sushi build eh?
By that same token I can comment that the damage per hit your str rings give in a meat built is tiny vs if you have just hit an extra time or two. The acc+5 is tiny huh? So is the str+3 you are proclaiming is better. If anything the str+3 you are saying will be needed when you reach the atk cap is even less needed than the +5acc because to reach that cap you will have to forfeit much acc gear/get a brd/eat meat. In those 3 situations you will need to either get more acc snuck in with minimum detriment(hello PCC,snipers), change the songs to march, or add more acc in since if your atk is so high you dont wanna miss since 90~95% acc AND hitting the atk cap at the same time is unlikley to say the least in full atk gear(there an echo in here?).
 
Please re-read the manner in which I said the parser should be used. Your post shows that you didn't read it or didn't understand it. You are exactly wrong by 180 degrees. Forgive me, I'm not trying to be an ass, no one is correct 100% of the time. However, scientific methodology is only debatable to those who do not understand it.

My opinions on the PCC vs. CC are just that, opinions. However, the scientific method has been around for hundreds of years and is not open for debate. All parsed data in this game is questionable due to the fact that you cannot control all the variables. However, my system allows for the least variance (of anything I've see posted) because you compare your damage against yourself, it completely removes down-time and the damage dealt by others.

Allow me to try to explain it again:

There is no down time in the equation, because you do not count the time between fights.

You compare your own damage in one set of gear against vs your own damage in another set of gear. This avoids the mistake of comparison to a non-standardized measure (ie, another player).

You avoid the pitfall of looking at Hit%, Crits, damage spikes, etc. These are all a means to an end, and that end is damage. If they don't generate more damage, then they are meaningless. Obviously they will generate damage, but sometimes one gets over-blown at the expense the others. This can potentially hurt total DoT, which is the ultimate goal.

You are freed from the limit of the mobs' HP, both actual and relative HP (ie, the HP's left after the other pt members' damage). Comparing damage per fight is totally skewed by the actual and relative HP's.

If you still don't see these benefits, then go smack your high school science teacher.
The flaw with your method is that you might have to stop your timer in the middle of a fight to ensure "accurate" results, whereas by looking to damage per fight you can look to the same number of fights. They should take about the same amount of time fighting.

The mobs do not have hugely different hp levels, I don't know why you'd think that it would massively change results. Plus you have to deal with the differing hp in total damage too, if they have less hp it would mean you will do less total. All of the "problems" with looking to damage per fight also occur when looking to total damage.

After you get your results, namely which did more damage, you SHOULD have your accuracy, crit rate, and hit damages listed; because that is what you are going to look at to see why one parse is higher than the other. If you're sacrificing one stat for another, that is where the differences would show up and that is where the judgments would come into play.

Your method in no way removes the effect of the damage caused by others. They're still hitting the mob, still lowering it's hp and effecting how much damage you could do in a single fight and in total. You're foolish to think that just because you're not looking at the damage dealt by the other people in the party that they have absolutely no effect on your results at all. You can do the exact same thing with a parser, just only look at your damage, or if that's too hard just filter the damage values for your party so that only yours show up.

Your method is in no way superior to mine, every "problem" in my method is a problem in your own. If you're so hellbent on thinking that total damage is the only thing to look at, just take the damage dealt per fight and multiply by the number of fights. Boom, your total damage.
 
First of all, I'd like to let people know that Khajit has given me advice about THF before, and it was all good info. I do respect his opinion on the job.

That being said, I still disagree about the PCC. I stated that it is more often than not the best choice, but not always. I typically xp as THF/WAR with more str and attack gear than most THF's. We all get into parties with bards from time to time. Despite that, even with Berserk up I've never hit the attack cap on THF. THF just doesn't have any inherent ability to raise it's attack rating, it's completely dependent upon it's sub job and items. Now, if I did eat meat dishes more often, I might reach that cap with a BRD in the party and with WAR subbed. But then that would be a reason to eat sushi, something that will continue to benefit you. Despite that, my understanding is that as you raise STR, the attack cap increases, which makes STR a valuable asset.

Regarding +5 ACC, yes it is tiny. Miniscule. Sushi gives +15% to Acc without a cap. Assuming 2 skill points = 1 base accuracy (what I've heard, not anything I've tested) then a naked DD with just his preferred weapon will have a base Acc of about 125 and get +19 Acc. If the game factors in Acc from gear into the sushi bonus, then it's considerably more. But then add in the gear as is (let's say most DD'ers have about +30 Acc for the sake of arguement) and you are up to +49 Acc. Now you are at 174 Acc. Another +5 Acc adds almost 2.9%.

However, +2.9% more Acc rating does not necessarily equal 2.9% more hits. There are diminishing returns on Acc as you increase the stat. I don't know as anyone has solid numbers on the subject, so let's be very generous and say you'll get +2.5% more hits, TP and damage out of it. Now if you had +3 Str, you'll do about 3 more damage per hit someone said. (It was Necrosis and I'll take his word for it as far as the THF job goes. It might be different for weapons with a higher base damage, IDK). If you're a THF that 3 damage is anywhere from a 6-10% damage increase... without giving the mob more TP (one of the big complaints detractors of the job have). So, if you choose to eat sushi, you really don't need a PCC. If you eat meat, that +5 Acc is a 3.2% increase, and maybe 3% more hits/TP/damage. Add in the +1% tp from the CC, and the 2.5-3% TP increase is even less. 1% is about 33-40% of the "huge TP gain" of the PCC.

This is all assuming lv 72+. At low levels that +5 Acc will seem like God, but I already mentioned that.

Finally, regarding parsing method. You mention a lot of factors common to all methods of parsing that simply cannot be avoided due to the nature of the game. If it can't be controlled, so be it, but it's an equal problem. As for the crap about the stopwatch, you can't really be serious. Who parses every xp party they are in? So you won't ruin all your xp parties. Any awkwardness of the procedure is a parametric error (a constant) that will influence each portion of the testing equally. And bitching about less than one second of lag every time you start the stopwatch (that is likely to be balanced out by a less than one second delay in stopping it)? Out of at least 18,000 seconds, it might throw off your numbers by about 0.3% (60/18,000) at the very most. To a 0.3% margin of error, you'd prefer a method that has 0% relevance? I doubt it. You're just begging the question.
 
The flaw with your method is that you might have to stop your timer in the middle of a fight to ensure "accurate" results, whereas by looking to damage per fight you can look to the same number of fights. They should take about the same amount of time fighting.

The mobs do not have hugely different hp levels, I don't know why you'd think that it would massively change results. Plus you have to deal with the differing hp in total damage too, if they have less hp it would mean you will do less total. All of the "problems" with looking to damage per fight also occur when looking to total damage.

After you get your results, namely which did more damage, you SHOULD have your accuracy, crit rate, and hit damages listed; because that is what you are going to look at to see why one parse is higher than the other. If you're sacrificing one stat for another, that is where the differences would show up and that is where the judgments would come into play.

Your method in no way removes the effect of the damage caused by others. They're still hitting the mob, still lowering it's hp and effecting how much damage you could do in a single fight and in total. You're foolish to think that just because you're not looking at the damage dealt by the other people in the party that they have absolutely no effect on your results at all. You can do the exact same thing with a parser, just only look at your damage, or if that's too hard just filter the damage values for your party so that only yours show up.

Your method is in no way superior to mine, every "problem" in my method is a problem in your own. If you're so hellbent on thinking that total damage is the only thing to look at, just take the damage dealt per fight and multiply by the number of fights. Boom, your total damage.

No. No. And, no. Baja, you're a great person in game from the limited time I've spent with you. But science and math just aren't for everyone. I know people with PhD's and Doctorates that still can't do a research project properly, (they rely on statictical software and just plug in the numbers trying to make sense of it) so no shame in it.
 
No. No. And, no. Baja, you're a great person in game from the limited time I've spent with you. But science and math just aren't for everyone. I know people with PhD's and Doctorates that still can't do a research project properly, (they rely on statictical software and just plug in the numbers trying to make sense of it) so no shame in it.
You're flat-out ignoring all of the flaws with your approach and assuming it's correct. Is my method perfect? No, but it's no less perfect than your own approach because all of the problems with my method still effect your results. You haven't shown how using a stopwatch and only looking at maximum damage removes the effect of other people beating on a monster or removes how a monster of a different level will have different hp than the previous one, or any of the other problems with my method.
 
Total damage delt is just all the per-fight results added together. So if one method is incorrect, they both are.
 
Despite that, my understanding is that as you raise STR, the attack cap increases, which makes STR a valuable asset...

Now if you had +3 Str, you'll do about 3 more damage per hit someone said.

lol what
 
Who doesn't TP in a swift belt? Seriously, who? (other than monks, duh)
any person who don't have a swift belt or anyone who uses a str build over haste build.
 
anyone who uses a str build over haste build.

Str build huh? never even heard of it, i've seen some good true-acc meat/curry builds that do decent dps, but using str over haste?

mara is a big talker about small amounts of haste meaning nothing, having stated things like swift belt not being worth using if it's the only haste you have. I always wondered about that... attacking 3% faster should still increase your dps by 3% right?

I know some jobs like sam have viable builds that don't use haste to tp
 
Str build huh? never even heard of it, i've seen some good true-acc meat/curry builds that do decent dps, but using str over haste?

mara is a big talker about small amounts of haste meaning nothing, having stated things like swift belt not being worth using if it's the only haste you have. I always wondered about that... attacking 3% faster should still increase your dps by 3% right?

I know some jobs like sam have viable builds that don't use haste to tp
well str/attack be more exact, making each hit count over trying get 100 tp fast as can. In my case it just that stupid belt wont drop so I use life/ww belt till got potent. Really wish they would add more macro slots
 
meleeing in full hecatomb adds a lot of str/attack!
 
I know some jobs like sam have viable builds that don't use haste to tp

SAM is the only job i believe, because they TP Fast enough as it is, haste offers less of an advantage than it does other jobs. There's more overall return for SAM using +attack/accuracy builds for TP to in crease per-hit numbers.

DRG might too, but they have acess to homam so i'm not sure.
 
i dont use haste set up as drk ... i dont care if i get 100% TP faster or not .. i just be happy drk when i do 420+ crit hit :D
 
If the Store TP+1 for some reason gets you to 100% TP one hit earlier then wear it instead of the Peacock Charm for TP. You aren't going to miss 5 Accuracy when you've more than likely got ~50 Accuracy in gear already.

EDIT: Honestly, the chances of this happening are really slim, and there's a good chance of your gear not being all that great if that's what's going to put you at 100% TP in one less hit. I'm not saying that CC is better than PCC.
 
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pretty much we go round and round of which one is better, in the end it depends on your gear need acc get pcc need str get cc. Only the player can decide if he/she has to much acc.
 
if you actually need to use PCC in an exp pt... Well, you SHOULDNT need to. Not after level 60. With capped combat skill alone, you should have a good amount of accuracy...

If you actually use PCC after the ability to get several better stat enhancing equips, youre really wasting an equipment slot. Honestly people.
 
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if you actually need to use PCC in an exp pt... Well, you SHOULDNT need to. Not before level 60. With capped combat skill alone, you should have a good amount of accuracy...

If you actually use PCC after the ability to get several better stat enhancing equips, youre really wasting an equipment slot. Honestly people.

I guess you're content with your 75-80% accuracy, but I'm sure not.
 
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