ProTip: /nin sucks for most jobs

[Angeloxi]

You mean the ones where you're a WHM healing WAR/NIN NIN/WAR and MNK/NINs (ie jamal, deci, neophytal - it's public knowledge that you've WHMed for them)

You mean WHM/NIN with the WHM hauby thing ? i tink thats a good move but I may be wrong.

 

[Rappa]

You mean the ones where you're a WHM healing WAR/NIN NIN/WAR and MNK/NINs (ie jamal, deci, neophytal - it's public knowledge that you've WHMed for them)

Yup, those would be the ones. I don't merit on drk because no one invites drks, rofl, unless it's be special request, then as I've mentioned before I go drk/nin with a scythe.

 

[Tagrineth]

You mean WHM/NIN with the WHM hauby thing ? i tink thats a good move but I may be wrong.

No, I mean where the WHM frigging stands back and casts varying levels of "Cure" along with "Haste" and "Regen". -_-


Oh and rappa, you owned yourself by pointing out your high exp TP burns.

 

[Angeloxi]

No, I mean where the WHM frigging stands back and casts varying levels of "Cure" along with "Haste" and "Regen". -_-

lol at least haste is casted to cancel slow...zomg i hated that as NIN i almost booted the WHM i got in crawler's nest a few weeks back until he got his act together.

 

[Rappa]

lol at least haste is casted to cancel slow...zomg i hated that as NIN i almost booted the WHM i got in crawler's nest a few weeks back until he got his act together.

What on earth are you talking about? And what does any of this have to do with subbing /nin in non-cannon pts? rofl

 

[Firestreak]

If I'm trying to Stun a bomb toss or something yes. If I'm trying to stun a mob after a weaponskill, no. Unlike shadows, which you have to time to ensure they get back up between mob attacks. You never know when your macros are going to lag, why do you think even the best nins get hit sometimes?

Here's a little trick, it's helpful for decreasing hits since you obviously get one shotted every time you pull hate. You probably know how you want to cast your Utsusemi just as the mob is hitting you so that it won't get interupted. Well stun works the opposite way. You want to stun just as the mob is ABOUT to get around round off you, so it can carry over as much as possible.

If you're surpassing my 20-25k xp/hr cannon pts then more power to ya, enjoy your manaburns. Though this is of course irrelevant to the topic.

If you're passing 15k/hour you're subbing ninja or being completely carried by 5 people who could be doing better with someone else besides you. Or better yet, you aren't even on you're DRK you're playing WHM.

This is exactly what I'm saying. I'm curious, when you sub nin do you intentionally try to steal hate off the tank just because you can? If so, that's rather silly. No one should ever be trying to take hate, you should be trying not to. You shouldn't have to rely on those shadow crutches that got you thru the jungles.

When you're subbing nin you're trying to kill the mob as quickly as possible so that you can get the experience points and pull the next mob. Hate is irrelevant once you pass the damage threshold that you're killing them faster than your shadows are falling. It's the same reason my BLM starts his fights off with a big nuke. I pull hate but I kill it before I die. The mob's dead, we pull another.

No. Why you keep comparing mages to melee is beyond me since they are two different things completely.

When I'm my BLM I am a damage dealer before I'm anything else. Therefore when you are critical of damage dealers for lowering their offensive ability for increase defensive ability in a capacity that they are pulling hate ANYWAY in their defensive state I have to wonder what's going on in that cranium of yours.

Until I see otherwise, nothing will convince me that a DD subbing nin is better than a DD subbing war, blus included. Do /war and parse or something, rofl.

And no one on this topic is flaming BLU/THFs. You're the one attacking /NIN and you're the one demanding proof, a little funny maybe?

 

[Angeloxi]

What on earth are you talking about? And what does any of this have to do with subbing /nin in non-cannon pts? rofl

you're right it doesnt unless you go WHM/NIN and keep up haste/erase/curing...oh wait that's a melee RDM/NIN thing 24-75, don't you just love them

 

[Firestreak]

Yup, those would be the ones. I don't merit on drk because no one invites drks, rofl, unless it's be special request, then as I've mentioned before I go drk/nin with a scythe.

My point is that my BLM going offensive is going to outdamage your DRK who's holding back to not pull hate even in the kind of party where people don't invite BLMs - because your damage is the limit of what you can before pulling hate, my limit is how much I can output while subbin RDM instead of SMN.

It's the same god damn thing for BLUs.

The BLU/WAR's limit is however much damage it can do while not pulling hate off the tank. The BLU/NIN's limit is however much damage it can do with /NIN sub. Considering 66% of the BLU's damage has nothing to do with SJ at all, and that he's pulling hate in epic proportions... it's a pretty good idea to sub NIN if you ask me.

 

[Rappa]

Here's a little trick, it's helpful for decreasing hits since you obviously get one shotted every time you pull hate. You probably know how you want to cast your Utsusemi just as the mob is hitting you so that it won't get interupted. Well stun works the opposite way. You want to stun just as the mob is ABOUT to get around round off you, so it can carry over as much as possible.

I know how utsusemi and stun both work, k? It's called an example, never said it has or ever will happen. Actually I seem to recall saying it wasn't likely.

If you're passing 15k/hour you're subbing ninja or being completely carried by 5 people who could be doing better with someone else besides you. Or better yet, you aren't even on you're DRK you're playing WHM.

What part of "/nin is great for a cannon" are you not fucking reading? I've said it at least 20 times in this topic. I'm referring to typical xp grind pts, not cannon pts.

When you're subbing nin you're trying to kill the mob as quickly as possible so that you can get the experience points and pull the next mob. Hate is irrelevant once you pass the damage threshold that you're killing them faster than your shadows are falling. It's the same reason my BLM starts his fights off with a big nuke. I pull hate but I kill it before I die. The mob's dead, we pull another.

Hello, this is called a cannon pt. I believe we just went there a sec ago so we can move on....

When I'm my BLM I am a damage dealer before I'm anything else. Therefore when you are critical of damage dealers for lowering their offensive ability for increase defensive ability in a capacity that they are pulling hate ANYWAY in their defensive state I have to wonder what's going on in that cranium of yours.

That doesn't even make sense, rofl. And it doesn't cover the point that mages aren't melee.

And no one on this topic is flaming BLU/THFs. You're the one attacking /NIN and you're the one demanding proof, a little funny maybe?

I see nothing funny about that. If you want to defend /nin, you should be willing to defend it. ZOMG IT'S FUNNY.

 

[jamal]

OMG I've said that for cannons you should be subbing nin. Why are you even bringing this up? Plus what the hell else would war sub, they can't sub war, rofl.

This is the only reason i sub nin. SE had to be jackasses and not let me sub war D: Berserkx2 go!

Eulore / Celventes -- PLD/NIN only works if you have ALL the gear for it, all the merits for it, AND are fighting mobs you can eat attack food on, AND there is no one else to invite. The loss of berserk makes a joyeuse lolblowmorethenitalready does. Company sword won't guarantee you high ws's, your attack will still peak at very low numbers. Attack Bonus + Zerk does wonders. I kept up with a party on pld/nin, even beat a (lolgimpedashell)WAR...but my numbers were not even remotely close to the dmg potential of other jobs.

To the thfs who kept talking about tp gain earlier, stfu. If you're hitting the mob for 2,3,2,2,1,4,Crit for 9, 3 dmg cycles, I don't want the mob scoring a ton of tp so you can gain tp slightly faster to ws, especially since you won't ws till SATA are ready (pre-cannon). Read the KI THF job forums. I sure have. All the top parsing thfs sub WAR (Phraust this isn't aimed at you and ridill lol)

 

[Rappa]

The BLU/WAR's limit is however much damage it can do while not pulling hate off the tank. The BLU/NIN's limit is however much damage it can do with /NIN sub. Considering 66% of the BLU's damage has nothing to do with SJ at all, and that he's pulling hate in epic proportions... it's a pretty good idea to sub NIN if you ask me.

Where is "pulling hate in epic proprotions" coming from? I seem to recall Uzor saying he "occasionally tanks a little" which is pretty different. If you're "pulling hate in epic proportions" in a non-cannon setup, you suck. I'll stick by that statement anytime.

 

[neville]

I'm a little surprised to see people saying NOT to sub /NIN as RNG.
If I'm in a TP burn party, or a party with a NIN and not a THF, I have two options:

1. Damage incredibly slowly
2. Damage slowly, but blow it away at the end and have shadows up to eat the few hits before it dies.

I have no problem with #1, but I'm built for damage. If I can open up more b/c of /NIN why not go for it? And for the record, the reason I levelled NIN is because people kept saying "RNG/WAR? Why dont you level NIN"

It happened in so many parties that I decided to do it to shut people up. I'm more than happy to come RNG/WAR... and, in fact, would prefer to do so.

 

[Sneakypants]

To the thfs who kept talking about tp gain earlier, stfu. If you're hitting the mob for 2,3,2,2,1,4,Crit for 9, 3 dmg cycles, I don't want the mob scoring a ton of tp so you can gain tp slightly faster to ws, especially since you won't ws till SATA are ready (pre-cannon). Read the KI THF job forums. I sure have. All the top parsing thfs sub WAR (Phraust this isn't aimed at you and ridill lol)

Speaking to Mercurial Kris?

 

[Firestreak]

I know how utsusemi and stun both work, k? It's called an example, never said it has or ever will happen. Actually I seem to recall saying it wasn't likely.



What part of "/nin is great for a cannon" are you not fucking reading? I've said it at least 20 times in this topic. I'm referring to typical xp grind pts, not cannon pts.



Hello, this is called a cannon pt. I believe we just went there a sec ago so we can move on....



That doesn't even make sense, rofl. And it doesn't cover the point that mages aren't melee.



I see nothing funny about that. If you want to defend /nin, you should be willing to defend it. ZOMG IT'S FUNNY.

Sure your argument holds if any situation where it doesn't is then referred to as a cannon and therefore excluded? But you'll have to define cannon very loosely, namely to be, "any party that doesn't suck".

 

[Firestreak]

Where is "pulling hate in epic proprotions" coming from? I seem to recall Uzor saying he "occasionally tanks a little" which is pretty different. If you're "pulling hate in epic proportions" in a non-cannon setup, you suck. I'll stick by that statement anytime.

So when you see someone /NIN pulling hate constantly by pumping out massive damage, you think they should lower their damage output to the point they aren't even pulling hate with WAR sub, is that the summary?

 

[Rappa]

Sure your argument holds if any situation where it doesn't is then referred to as a cannon and therefore excluded? But you'll have to define cannon very loosely, namely to be, "any party that doesn't suck".

Cannon pt: 4-5 melee TP burning to kill things really fast. 1x brd, 1x whm or rdm if only 4 melee. Pretty sure this is a standard definition, and not something you see often at lower levels, which is honestly what I was intending to target this topic towards. 70+ is a whole different video game, honestly, and I covered that in my opening paragraph.

Non cannon pt is made up of melee, a healer, a refresher, and sometimes a blm for magic bursting or whatever. These pts setup skillchains usually, and have downtimes between chains. These are more likely what you're going to have from that 20-60 range where everyone subs nin for no reason. Of course, non cannon pts seem to be a dying breed, yet everyone wants things like plds for dynamis and hnm fights but won't do a normal pt involving them. Oh wells.

 

[Rappa]

So when you see someone /NIN pulling hate constantly by pumping out massive damage, you think they should lower their damage output to the point they aren't even pulling hate with WAR sub, is that the summary?

No, but nice try. Honestly, why do I have to explain how hate control works to someone with multiple lvl 75 jobs? Get into a normal xp pt sometime so you remember how the damn game works. Early spike damage that pulls hate is not better than consistantly higher damage throughout the fight. This is what /war gives you. Every hit does more damage than with /nin. You don't lose out on tp gain due to Double Attack. You can easily to that spike damage at the midpoint of the fight where the tank has cemented hate, or can easily snatch it back with another voke after you get it. WTF is so hard to understand here?

 

[Stouter]

BRD/NIN. This is probably the most selfish sub, mainly used in cannons and completely unnecessary. Assuming that your melee voke incoming mobs after you sleep them (yes, I know that's asking a lot but pt with competant people please), you shouldn't be getting hit much anyway. If you're subbing /WHM, you get Stoneskin and Blink, which should get you to camp just fine. Better yet if you're /RDM you get Phalanx too, and not to mention the Fast Cast benefit you get on all of your songs. Also from either sub you can cure yourself so you don't have to waste mage mp everytime your shadows go down. You get it now?

Stoneskin and blink combined take almost 30 seconds to cast. For me to have that kind of time, I need to pull 2-3 mobs at once, taking more damage in the process than stoneskin and blink absorb. Brd/whm gives status cures and curaga, period. Stoneskin and Blink are as useful as en-spells from /rdm. On the subject of /rdm, it's useful for cast cast only. No status cures, Cure III only, you're not doing any kind of backup healing with that.

As a brd in a cannon, I spend more than 95% of my time pulling, sleeping, and buffing. I often have so little available time that the healer in a cannon gets Ballad 2 only. I often take as much MP being cured as I save by backup healing. As brd/nin I take almost no damage outside of AoE, and all of a sudden have time to slip in Ballad 1 on occasion.

Are you shitting your pants? Thf's arn't out there to get good damage for every hit. Only thing that will ever do good enough damage for a thf is Ws's TP is what a THF needs to do good damage. The basis of your case should be directed at DARK KNIGHTS NOT THIEFS. WS's is the only time a THF does good damage that's it. And if you go well the thf's ws will be higher I don't care no /war out there will ever do more DoT then my THF I guarntee that. I will be doing 2 ws's for his 1. Say my WS is 1200 his is 1600 I did 2 for a total of 2400 I win /war fails. Seriously this is about the dumbest thing I've heard.

Thf/War will get TP faster from double attack than thf/nin will get from dual wield. Dual Wield gives you more swings but less TP per hit. Double attack gives more swings, period. You do get an extra hit on your ws's, a 4-hit ws means 4 hits with the main hand weapon, and a bonus hit with the offhand weapon if you dual wield.

Easy. Doing 1200 damage in 10 sec will surely make you pull hate. Utsusemi is for not being a MP sponge.

Reason most believe BLU/NIN sucks is because mots BLU's suck. That's a fact. Our main source of damage is from spells. As BLU/NIN, I could easily pull out over 1,200+ damage per fight from only 1 spell and a a Vorpal Blade, and I almost always get over 100% TP every fight. Added to this is around 50-60 damage per sword, and remember that with Dual Wield you'll attack faster, but still get the same TP. Doing 1200+ per fight will most likely pull hate.

The reason I see most Blu/Nin crapping on Blu/Thf is because they don't understand the potential of /thf. SA and TA are seperate job abilities, there is no SATA. You can open a fight with a TA-multi-hit-physical-spell onto the tank, then whip around and SA a single hit one like cannonball or w/e you BLU's use. If your fights are going long enough for you to get 100 TP per fight, you should have TA back up by the start of the next fight.

.btw, THF/DRK is real nice since souleater stacks with DE...or whatever, but we choose THF/NIN because we are too lazy to level shielding also I guess.

Yes it stacks, but /drk souleater is gimped. Souleater for Drk main is 10% off your current HP added to your hit. /Drk souleater is 10% off your HP, with half of that lost HP adding to your damage. You're losing 500 HP doing that DE to get an extra 250 damage on it.

The new dynamis zones area a small percentage of total dynamsi completed.

Yagudo have that annoying AoE stun move, Goblins have frypan, Orcs have that spinning whatever move. Glacier has all of those mobs. Xarc has DL, and a bunch of dragons. That basically leaves bastok as the lone dynamis zone where utsu won't prevent aoe moves that will suck down MP fast.

 

[Stouter]

Company Sword + Joyeuse
Ifrit's Bow
Optical Hat
Fortitude Torque
Suppanomimi
Brutal Earring
Homam Corazza >>> Hecatomb Harness for WS
Homam Manopolas >>> Hecatomb Mittens for WS
Flame Ring x2
Amement Mantle +1
Potent Belt
Valor Breeches
Homam Gambieras >>> Hecatomb Leggings for WS

Accuracy: +43 (+28 for Vorpal Blade)
Strength: +23 (+48 for Vorpal Blade)
Attack: +15
Sword: +12
Enmity: +6 (holding hate through damage, maybe?)
Haste: +6%
Enhanced Dual Wield
Enhanced Double Attack (+ Joyeuse effect)
Enhanced Triple Attack
Store TP +1

Godly gear yes, but you can drop off the WS gear swap and still have good stats with more realistic gear on the normal setup:

Justice Torque >>> Chivalrous Chain
Homam Corazza >>> Haubergeron
Brutal Earring >>> Ethereal Earring
Homam Manopolas >>> Dusk Gloves
Valor Breeches >>> Sipahi Zerehs
Homam Gambieras >>> Marine Boots/Rutter Sabatons

Either way, I'd love to try out a PLD/NIN DD setup like the first one in a TP burn party.

Any point in listing dream gear?

btw...

Ifrit's bow is only active when a party member has Ifrit out
Justice Sword > Joyeuse
I laugh every time a pld/nin invites me to exp as brd, I laugh long and hard

 

[Firestreak]

Cannon pt: 4-5 melee TP burning to kill things really fast. 1x brd, 1x whm or rdm if only 4 melee. Pretty sure this is a standard definition, and not something you see often at lower levels, which is honestly what I was intending to target this topic towards. 70+ is a whole different video game, honestly, and I covered that in my opening paragraph.

Non cannon pt is made up of melee, a healer, a refresher, and sometimes a blm for magic bursting or whatever. These pts setup skillchains usually, and have downtimes between chains. These are more likely what you're going to have from that 20-60 range where everyone subs nin for no reason. Of course, non cannon pts seem to be a dying breed, yet everyone wants things like plds for dynamis and hnm fights but won't do a normal pt involving them. Oh wells.

So then 4 melees, a brd and a healer is a cannon party but at the same time is a non cannon party?