Quetzalcoatl, my 2 cents!

i still think the points system is the best.... you know you get so many points for every hunt you're at and however many drops happen... each item costs X amount of points... only thing is at the beginning of a shell points are high, and that is when i feel it is acceptable to give the leader/co-leaders the right to pick up those items... because no one wants to get an item then break their own shell
 
I honestly did not post this as a Quetzalcoatl LS flame, it is my opinion and obviously the opinion of many, the problem is loyalty people are not willing to sacrifice the time and effort to better their LS; a small few will without the intent of getting any items, but that small group is not enough to create a great LS. Every LS has its faithful members and leaders know who they are so its common to see one group of people in a LS pimped out with gear and gil and 90-95% with incomplete gear and struggling financially. The double and triple dippers are usually the ones that only show if there is vested interest. To become a great LS (imo) you cannot have members with multiple LSs they need to be in the main shell 90% of the time to develop a friendship with the members. It is difficult to deal with members with a "friend" LS and a GOD/HNM/SEA LS, an analogy would be your at a party with friends having a insane time, but time is ticking, and you have to be at work in the morning… what do you do? You call in sick or with some BS excuse to continue your experience >.< (I know I have lol)

To Zoolander you are interpreting my post incorrectly, sure some LSs have killed kings but in my post the key word was “consistently” and correct I don’t know what your LS accomplishments are, but keep in mind this server is like one big high school, your LS mates have friends and their friends have even more friends, so honestly no one has to be there to witness the event.

Regarding the Ohat analogy, you are right Firestreak if you are not willing to comply with the policy “DO NOT JOIN”, but everyone is not genuine, I had people tell me yeah I can stay after I get my Ohat, and halfway through some emergency pops up out the blue. How many times have you seen a member come to events, farm 100% until they get the item they want, then afterwards they throw every excuse in the world at you why they cant participate… I promote RL > FFXI but sometimes the BS is quite obvious, I had someone give me their word to help out the LS more if they got “said” item, we all know the outcome to that scenario…

I created this to help not to flame
My apologies for not posting earlier, but I only really post here on my downtime at work
Ill check back in a few
Thank you all for you insight and comments
 
Firestreak said:
There is a balance. It's what you agree to when you join the linkshell.

When I say I expect you to come for 18 hakutaku runs if you want to join my run, you come for 18 hakutaku runs. If this is unacceptable, then...

...DO NOT JOIN.

This is not a difficult concept. You are unwilling to spend 10 hours at this event? DO NOT JOIN.

By me telling you, this event will take 10 hours, we are going to get everyone a hat, don't sign up if you can't stay til the end... by signing up, you are agreeing to that.

Now I'm not talking about people who do endgame for fun. There are those people out there. And there are events out there just done for fun. Mostly these are events done just once for the purposes of doing them.

However to get all your sky gear requires basically a week of farming for an entire linkshell. If you aren't willing to farm for people who are farming for you...

DO NOT JOIN.
Click to expand...

A leader who expects his members to devote what amounts to a full day to that one task is going to find himself out of a member base soon. In a pickup group, of course I'm not going to join - because that kind of venture is doomed to failure. And if a LS leader is demanding 10 hours of compliance under the pretext that it won't implode around hour 5 or 6 and people will walk away unhappy (which is never guaranteed not to happen) or else you're 'disloyal,' well, shit, I'd rather go pay a pickup group and not get my DKP for the day.


Let me focus on this for a minute.

First off most endgame gear is ex/rare.

Secondly, just because an item is in fact now theirs, does not excuse a person from obligation. By joining a sky shell, by accepting gear, you are agreeing that you are there for the people who were there for you. That's the point of a freaking linkshell! They help you, you help them. If a person gets what they want and doesn't furfil their end of the bargain, all they are is a thief. They stole everyone's time.

I'm not saying you're a slave forever. I'm saying... around 30 people were needed to get your gear? Your obligation is around 30 people get their sky gear that you helped farm for. I'm not saying you're a slave til the end of time... I'm saying what you get out and put in should be equal.
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How often does a fresh Sky recruit get gear of any value within the first week or 2 of joining? Not often. Maybe some castoffs that nobody in the alliance wants, or 1/18th of that V. Claw split. There's always someone who still needs a piece of gear, and when you start at the back of the line in a shell and work your way to the front - doesn't that venture that everyone else was, at the beginning, in front of you, and that means the obligation is filled? How many topics were made about people quitting LSs because 6, 9, 12 months of service still didn't mean you 'deserved' that Osode?

Gear should be a reward, not a way to keep a member hostage.

If the general community felt what you think is acceptable should be the standard, all our linkshells would need to operate very differently. Abjurations would have to be thrown out as opposed to given to people in order to keep them in the shell until they already paid all their dues. Osodes would have to be stored on mules until people worked off all the linkshell demands of the recipiant. Perhaps all Osodes would be sold at Batallia and people would have to make enough gil to buy their own osode there.(not a bad idea)
Click to expand...

Rare/ex is another problem. I'd much rather spend, let's say 40 hours farming/crafting and buy myself an Abjuration or an Osode instead of taking those 40 hours (likely 3 or 4 times that) running around Sky or Sea or sitting in Aery stressed out about pops and drops.
 
How about the time and effort to fight things that they have never fought before? I can give a shit about drops or items or gear or whatever. Give me some badass mobs to fight that aren't the same things over and over. Isn't that incentive enough to camp HNMs or go fight Jailers. Isn't that the incentive for new people in sky to fight Gods and Kirin?
I refuse to believe that everyone is in it just to obtain gear. Gear is nice to aid you in killing these things but this is still a videogame and regardless of what treasure the mob drops I want to kill every freaking monster in this game and am pretty damn close save for Wyrms and Sea shit.
Anyone want a ninja to go kill something just look me up, I am only in it for the kill - this is Foomania!
 
CubsWoo said:
A leader who expects his members to devote what amounts to a full day to that one task is going to find himself out of a member base soon. In a pickup group, of course I'm not going to join - because that kind of venture is doomed to failure. And if a LS leader is demanding 10 hours of compliance under the pretext that it won't implode around hour 5 or 6 and people will walk away unhappy (which is never guaranteed not to happen) or else you're 'disloyal,' well, shit, I'd rather go pay a pickup group and not get my DKP for the day.
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Don't focus on the 10 hours being condensed into 1 day on my example. It could just as easily be 5 hours saturday and then 5 hours sunday.

If you'd rather pay people to help you get your gear than exchange help for help, then go ahead. Yet again, you're not agreeing to the terms of the alliance in the first place. No one is saying you are required to join an 18 man Hakutaku alliance nor are they saying you're wrong to get it another way or not at all.

What's wrong is agreeing to those terms and then not holding your end of the bargain once there is no way to make you. Stealing from people is a big "no no" but casually taking off with endgame items from LSs when you agreed beforehand to stay has become almost a standard.

CubsWoo said:
How often does a fresh Sky recruit get gear of any value within the first week or 2 of joining? Not often. Maybe some castoffs that nobody in the alliance wants, or 1/18th of that V. Claw split. There's always someone who still needs a piece of gear, and when you start at the back of the line in a shell and work your way to the front - doesn't that venture that everyone else was, at the beginning, in front of you, and that means the obligation is filled? How many topics were made about people quitting LSs because 6, 9, 12 months of service still didn't mean you 'deserved' that Osode?

Gear should be a reward, not a way to keep a member hostage.
Click to expand...

It depends what point the LS is at. You wait 6 months to get your osode because you are put in the back of the line. However when the LS just formed there were people who started out in front. There was a "first" osode. Now instead of a LS as intended towards stronger and stronger prey, it is static... let me explain.

Let's just take this 18 man hakutaku run. Once all 18 have their hats(sky), we are now strong enough to do 18 for example Swift Belt.

(Imagine for the purposes of this comparison you can use Opitcal Hat in lvl 50 cap area, that swift belt NMs are a bit harder than hakutaku,ext.)

I want to get my swift belt and optical hat. So to do so i must be in an alliance with all optical hats.

So we start to do optical hats. Now there are 2 extremes here.

1, nobody leaves until we are all done.

10 hours, we do optical hats, it's over.

This would be an LS done with sky in 6 months, no longer have to ever go there again.

Next, after every person gets their hat, they immediately leave. Someone new joins to replace the old one.

This will continue until you can't find a new person to replace the last one that just left. Then 17 people get no hat. 17 people get no hat, because the first 17 members left after getting theirs. Or maybe they can only get 5 replacements to come. The first 5 get their hat. The next 13 get no hat, the 5 replacements get no hat.

This is what makes sky hellish. You don't have to get optical hats until the alliance ends, just stay at least for the people in the alliance who were there when you got your hat. The realitiy is there is a huge mixed bag. There are people who..

1) Will stay til the alliance is over. They want to finish up on optical hats and move on to swift belts.

2) Will put out around what they got. If they got an optical hat, they will stay around 18 fights, more or less.

3) People who will leave the second they get their hat.

In the case of an already established linkshell, where you can expect the 6 month wait.

Now you're getting your hat quicker as a new member, instead of waiting 6 months in 4, because of people in catagory 1, who have done 18 hats already and stay and keep helping new people in hopes everyone getting finished so you can move on to swift belts. Most established linkshells have a few people who have all their sky gear, everyone who was there when they got their sky gear then has their sky gear or quit. Yet those people still farm sky.

People who come in, do their 6 months and then leave having earned there gear don't really help or hurt the situation. Of course if you have people in that shell who sped it up from however long it would have taken cause they are there just to help, that means to be "even" you have to go a bit past when you have your gear.

CubsWoo said:
Rare/ex is another problem. I'd much rather spend, let's say 40 hours farming/crafting and buy myself an Abjuration or an Osode instead of taking those 40 hours (likely 3 or 4 times that) running around Sky or Sea or sitting in Aery stressed out about pops and drops.
Click to expand...

That's fine, if you prefer to get your gear that way. I'm not judging it in the slightest. Endgame shells aren't for everyone, and for the most part they aren't even terribly efficient based on reward/time.

The point I'm arguing is that when you DO join the linkshell you ARE agreeing to the time sink if you want to get items out of it. If 1 hakutaku takes 10 combined hours by adding up the time spent of each individual member, you are indebted 10 hours to the group.

Maybe in Den of Rancor you can find people willing to just help cause they're your friend. You aren't going to find people willing to farm your god gear just cause they like you. Not enough to make up a linkshell. If you are willing to pay some linkshell and they are willing to sell you abjurations, sure.

I'd say any linkshell that's doing sky or camping HNM just to sell abjurations or Osodes or pretty stupid. I can make better gil doing just about anything. The fact that you see it easier to make gil to hire someone else than do the chore yourself shows that they are either incredibly stupid, giving you scraps when they're after something better, or they are just addicted to killing whatever you want and they're doing it for fun.

That or you're just so much better at making gil than everyone else that doing anything except making gil all day long while youi're on FF is a waste of your time.
 
Ji the Great said:
This is not a rant it’s just an eye opener,
It is very obvious that only one NA LS kills Wyrms consistently on our server, anyone ever ask themselves why? The reason: NA LSs on our server never grow strong enough, mainly due to the following:

Greed: We all have been in or witnessed many examples of this within LSs on our server. It is the fault of both Ldrs and members, mostly Ldrs in my opinion; I think the mentality of many NAs is “I want to be the first to do/have [agenda/item here]”, this mentality completely disregards strengthening the LS and puts an emphasis on individuality. An example of this is Relic weapons, if everyone in a In-house/Outside Dynamis LS is trying to upgrade their weapon at the same time it will take forever to see one NA relic (Congrats Kisada btw)

Loyalty: Most NAs just don’t have it; they are not willing to stick around and help develop a shell. Players would rather leave and go to an established shell with a large wait line on items, the end result of that scenario is bitterness (70% of the time) and in the long run that person will become disgruntle and opt to form their own LS.

The FFXI linkshell model could be improved, but the bottom line is if things are not fair members will leave and when they leave, your shell is down one member… sure you can recruit and train someone new, but more will leave. This process stagnates your shell’s evolution and eventually diminishes all hope and faith, making the experience in your LS mundane and lifeless. This cycle will continue until things change, people will keep getting burnt and eventually leaving.

Thanks for reading; hopefully this sheds some light on our server’s imbalance
My apologies for the rant (I didn’t mean to I swear >.<)
Click to expand...
1 reason why NA ls's get o w n e d over and over again.And that is leaders thinking they have the right to own everything n then bail on people just because they are leaders.On the other hand jp ls's work on a ls as a whole.Big difference!!.
 
I think the main problem is the ambitions of leaders. It ties in with all the other factors, greed, etc, to keep a shell from ever developing. You bring in floods of new people, regardless of issues current members have with them, set mandatory HNM camps, mandatory sky farming, mandatory 3-6 hours 4-7 days a week. This is nice for getting people gear, but it's not nice for developing a shell. People get burnt out, quit the shell, and you get a new wave of people.

What it would take to have a solid linkshell is to start one with a small, solid base of members, and passively recruit. No active recruitment, no "we need 5 smn so we can take on so and so." Slowly bring in members, and take down what you can, and want to.. Don't recruit based on goals, recruit based on people. Bring in people that mesh well with your current member base, and your time schedule. There's enough people with multiple 75 jobs that you can mix things up a bit and bring in someone of a job you aren't "in need of." Handing out 20 pearls in a week is only setting yourself up to have 10 of them tossed in less than a month, as well as 5 pearls from current members. Loyalty is not a given, it must be earned.
 
Meh, some LS' have been around for a long time and have very loyal members but just choose not to do wyrms. Instead opting for Sea and Sky.
 
Firestreak said:
Don't focus on the 10 hours being condensed into 1 day on my example. It could just as easily be 5 hours saturday and then 5 hours sunday.

If you'd rather pay people to help you get your gear than exchange help for help, then go ahead. Yet again, you're not agreeing to the terms of the alliance in the first place. No one is saying you are required to join an 18 man Hakutaku alliance nor are they saying you're wrong to get it another way or not at all.

What's wrong is agreeing to those terms and then not holding your end of the bargain once there is no way to make you. Stealing from people is a big "no no" but casually taking off with endgame items from LSs when you agreed beforehand to stay has become almost a standard.
Click to expand...

The problem comes in when the terms change midstream. Multiple people I've known have been told one thing when they enter an endgame shell and then, when their turn comes, get told the system or the plans have shifted and now they've got to wait another month. If you're going to have people agree to the terms, make sure those terms stay solid. I'll spend 10 hours down in DoR if I'm going to absolutely get a chance for a hat. But if hour 6 comes and the leader calls it short (regardless of reason) it's the leader who should eat the blame. Having problems with members getting items and leaving? Recruit better.



People who come in, do their 6 months and then leave having earned there gear don't really help or hurt the situation. Of course if you have people in that shell who sped it up from however long it would have taken cause they are there just to help, that means to be "even" you have to go a bit past when you have your gear.
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The problem here is: What benefit does 'improving the situation' do for the average player? If your Sky LS can beat Kirin, all you're going to 'improve' is your Kirin time. Sure, given enough time/gear upgrades, that LS might move on to bigger things, but how many do? How many LSs out there stick to Sky instead of Wyrms and Sea because the Sky loot is better?

I'm not saying it's wrong to stick around a LS and help out. A lot of people don't mind. But can you blame someone for not wanting to do the same 13 Sky NMs week-in, week-out, when their only reward is a cut of the gil drop?



The fact that you see it easier to make gil to hire someone else than do the chore yourself shows that they are either incredibly stupid, giving you scraps when they're after something better, or they are just addicted to killing whatever you want and they're doing it for fun.

That or you're just so much better at making gil than everyone else that doing anything except making gil all day long while youi're on FF is a waste of your time.
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It's not that. Since day 1 I've found camping in general terribly boring. I can think, just off the top of my head, two dozen ways to go out and do something I find fun and make gil at the same time. I can take my other account out with my girlfriend and have fun plus make XP and gil. In Sky, there's X pop mobs, X gods, 1 Kirin, and pretty much the same tactics every time. And I'd do it without her, since she's pretty much the same as I am when it comes to camping.

I've accepted that I'll probably never get an Osode. Never see a Ridill for my upstart WAR. And I'm ok with that. It's not that I don't think I could work past my dislike of running Sky/3 Kings for 6-9 months to get that gear - it's just that I don't want to.
 
CubsWoo said:
The problem here is: What benefit does 'improving the situation' do for the average player? If your Sky LS can beat Kirin, all you're going to 'improve' is your Kirin time. Sure, given enough time/gear upgrades, that LS might move on to bigger things, but how many do? How many LSs out there stick to Sky instead of Wyrms and Sea because the Sky loot is better?
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Actually, the reason why they don't move past sky is mainly because of people getting gear and leaving or getting gear and quitting the game. It's because they can't leave sky because they're in a perpetual "state of gear." They get to a certain level and the flow of gear into the members of the LS is the same as the gear leaving when people jump ship/quit. They don't have the gear or the teamwork to do other things, so they're pidgeon-holed into doing sky until the shell breaks. That can lead to frustration in the older members, who want to do something new, but can't because so many people have quit and they have to bring the newer members up to the level of gear as the people who left.
 
So we have an unbreakable circle - the old players blame the new players for leaving after they get their gear, the new players blame the old players for not doing anything new.
 
CubsWoo said:
The problem comes in when the terms change midstream. Multiple people I've known have been told one thing when they enter an endgame shell and then, when their turn comes, get told the system or the plans have shifted and now they've got to wait another month. If you're going to have people agree to the terms, make sure those terms stay solid. I'll spend 10 hours down in DoR if I'm going to absolutely get a chance for a hat. But if hour 6 comes and the leader calls it short (regardless of reason) it's the leader who should eat the blame. Having problems with members getting items and leaving? Recruit better.





The problem here is: What benefit does 'improving the situation' do for the average player? If your Sky LS can beat Kirin, all you're going to 'improve' is your Kirin time. Sure, given enough time/gear upgrades, that LS might move on to bigger things, but how many do? How many LSs out there stick to Sky instead of Wyrms and Sea because the Sky loot is better?

I'm not saying it's wrong to stick around a LS and help out. A lot of people don't mind. But can you blame someone for not wanting to do the same 13 Sky NMs week-in, week-out, when their only reward is a cut of the gil drop?





It's not that. Since day 1 I've found camping in general terribly boring. I can think, just off the top of my head, two dozen ways to go out and do something I find fun and make gil at the same time. I can take my other account out with my girlfriend and have fun plus make XP and gil. In Sky, there's X pop mobs, X gods, 1 Kirin, and pretty much the same tactics every time. And I'd do it without her, since she's pretty much the same as I am when it comes to camping.

I've accepted that I'll probably never get an Osode. Never see a Ridill for my upstart WAR. And I'm ok with that. It's not that I don't think I could work past my dislike of running Sky/3 Kings for 6-9 months to get that gear - it's just that I don't want to.
Click to expand...

There's no way to promise someone how fast they'll get their gear. You could get an Osode in 2 months and you could wind up getting it in 10. It depends on a few things...

1) How efficient your LS is.
2) How many hours/week your LS spends farming sky.
3) How many people need Osode.
4) How lucky you are on Osode drops.
5) How much you participate versus others who need it.
6) Average member participation in general.

No leader can accurately predict many of these things. You can recruit the best more dedicated member in the game, 1 month later, they may get a new job and their schedule is screwed up. They may come every day before they get Haidates, and come once a month after. All you can know is how many hours you put into the shell and how many hours were spent combined in an effort to get your gear by all the member's.

You can read Stouter's view that you should base a linkshell like a social shell, but I don't think that can actually work in a shell you intend to accomplish objectives in. Not an insult, but you got your sky gear where? In your social shell or in a shell you're expressing how it doesn't work?


Also, it's funny how people talk about Japanese shells and how the think they are so much more fair than NA. They have people doing multiple limbus runs simultaneously so that their leaders can get a full set of Homan immediately before anyone can even get another piece. But hell... at least they stay in the shell.
 
CubsWoo said:
So we have an unbreakable circle - the old players blame the new players for leaving after they get their gear, the new players blame the old players for not doing anything new.
Click to expand...

The new players don't want to do anything new. They want to get their sky gear. Older players who have already done sky want to avoid it like a plague. They put up with it in hopes to strengthen their linkshell.
 
Bajaratt said:
Actually, the reason why they don't move past sky is mainly because of people getting gear and leaving or getting gear and quitting the game. It's because they can't leave sky because they're in a perpetual "state of gear." They get to a certain level and the flow of gear into the members of the LS is the same as the gear leaving when people jump ship/quit. They don't have the gear or the teamwork to do other things, so they're pidgeon-holed into doing sky until the shell breaks. That can lead to frustration in the older members, who want to do something new, but can't because so many people have quit and they have to bring the newer members up to the level of gear as the people who left.
Click to expand...

Yep, and that's why nobody gets anywhere if they arn't already there, like Kaizen. It'll take a long (probably infinite) time for another shell to get up to doing wyrms and whatnot, because all the other shells get stuck in the same gear loop. Well, unless said shell just completely ignores its members need for other gear and fights wyrms anyway, at which point they'll probably lose a lot and their members will leave because the leaders are idiots.
 
Firestreak said:
Also, it's funny how people talk about Japanese shells and how the think they are so much more fair than NA. They have people doing multiple limbus runs simultaneously so that their leaders can get a full set of Homan immediately before anyone can even get another piece. But hell... at least they stay in the shell.
Click to expand...

I've been in a JP Dynamis Shell for 4 months, and there's been no hoarding of anything by the leaders (and the leader is a JP player who a lot of NAs don't regard particularly highly..). Everything is handled by points, everything is completely open, and everyone knows exactly where they stand with regards to earning what they want to from the shell, whether it be AF2 or Gil.

I also belong to an NA Endgame Shell. Again, everything is handled by points, everything is completely open, and again everyone knows exactly what they need to do to work towards getting the items they want.

Another thing they have in common is that by helping others achieve their goals, you get closer to achieving yours. Even if I get no gear for months on end, I know without any doubt, that the more I contribute, the better my chances of getting any gear that I want, whether it takes a week, a month or a year.

It isn't an NA way of doing things vs a JP way of doing things (and I'm neither NA or JP so maybe I'm more objective) that people should be looking at. Loyalty is a big part of it though, and if the JP shells have an easier time of things because their members show more loyalty, then they deserve the rewards.
 
Not all NA or JP are one way or the other. One JP shell or NA shell being fair doesn't mean all and the same as reverse.

I'll just point out throwing all Homan right at the leader of a shell seems a bit wrong. So anyone saying all JPs are fair and righteous and we should learn to follow their example should be more specific as to which JP they talking about. (Not that most of the people actually distinguish.)
 
Elemmire said:
I've known this, said it, and seen it not changing. I don't expect it to change anytime soon. There's a reason so many people wanna leave this server to another.
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I didn´t read the entire thread yet, only got to Ele´s post, but here´s the long and short of it:

Be the change you want to see in the game world.

Running away (changing severs) won´t solve anything.
The grass is always greener over the septic tank, or however the saying goes. There is no inherent reason that prevents this server from succeeding, the players are all the same (generally speaking). What´s different is attitude, and attitude can change.

More later ..., gotta run, my internet cafe surf time is up. :(
 
Sculli said:
Be the change you want to see in the game world.
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You're starting to remind me of those inspirational speakers that told us back in 4th grade that we could cure AIDS, global warming and end world conflict if we just believed in ourselves and tried really hard.
 
CubsWoo said:
You're starting to remind me of those inspirational speakers that told us back in 4th grade that we could cure AIDS, global warming and end world conflict if we just believed in ourselves and tried really hard.
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Well, I don´t know about AIDS, Global Warming I know a little bit about as they actually pay me to work on things that pertain to it, and I can say that Amerians could indeed try harder to make a change. How much of a change it would make I don´t know, but imho even a little less warming would be worth the effort. World conflict, again, I am no expert by any means, so no clue.

I do know though that "Quetz end game sucks" is a function of the attitude of Quetz end game players, there is no escaping that logic. No one is held hostage by circumstances in this game, circumstances can be changed almost at will, though that does require someone to put forward "good faith" and likely getting burned in the process. There is no shame in failing on the 1st try, or the 10,000th, there is only shame in giving up.

Which brings me to a somewhat different topic, who are the people, people, not in-game characters, who are in the end game? This is as value-free a question as it can be. Seriously though, who are they?
Once you find out who they are in real life, not by name, but by real life character, then it will perhaps become easier to rally them around a common goal.

For example, there is no way that someone who needs a constant audience to feel good about him or herself is going to follow another person who is an equal attention whore. It´s too much conflict. The attention seeker will follow someone who is a "good listener" though, because that person will give the attention seeker all the attention he or she needs. This of course is an overlz simplified approach, but I do believe that many in the end game, not only in FFXI but in other MMOs as well, play the game for themselves.

While there is nothing wrong about doing that, someone like that can not lead, or unify, people will simply not follow someone who primarily cares about him- or herself.

Find out what those in the end-game want, and give it to them, or offer a way on how they can get it if they follow you. Loot is just a proxy, loot doesn´t affect the real person, that what loot stands for can, but that can also be gained without actual loot.
 
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