RDM Melee - please stop

karla said:
rng from subs from /thf to /smn (smn is alright, just whm or blm sub mor usful).

I was lvling my brd in the last few weeks, and got the job to 60ish lv.
Since ballad+refresh, elegy+slow are always good for PT, I love to get a rdm to lv with me if possible.

but what suprised me is.. I was tooooo "lucky" to be able to see some 60ish lv RDM/SMNs at this lv... /sigh
I was thinking that "Oh maybe they just finished soloing" , but in fact they do not have whm or blm lvled to be sub.. one of them even told me, his whm and blm all lower then 15lv, and found many excuses for not lvling them such as no money no time...

A rdm not able to cure para, silence (whm sub)
, chainspell escape in danger, ES sleep when link (blm sub).. what's the good to sub smn at lv 60?

I don't really care if rdm melee in the pt, if he did all the buffs and refreshes. But please stop using stupid subs in xp pt.
{Common sense} {Can I have it?}
I bolded what I am responding to here. While I hate /smn sub on red mages (lol) you're incorrect in thinking that these spells are from whm only sub. Red mages get cure spells up to Cure IV, we are also given silence, paralyze, and slow. It would be stupid to not give red mages silence, paralyzem and slow considering they are indeed, enfeebling magic spells :P A rdm/smn will still have these abilities and will certainly have more MP than a rdm/whm or rdm/blm, but that MP bonus is the -only- benefit to subbing smn for red mage imho.
 
Auto-Refresh is pretty nice and shiney as well. I use SMN as subjob for my WHM as i get MP and Auto-Refresh. but i only use it when i have a BLM in pt for D2 usually...i generally use BLM sub when no BLM for escape and Warp. (mainly warp...i am a selfish WHM). anyway...sorry for thread hijack just figured i would point out that Auto-Refresh is also a nice bonus for subbing SMN.
 
Eilistrae, I'm pretty sure by 'cure para, silence' he meant cure the status effects paralyze and slow, ie. have the spells paralyna and silena.
 
silvereyes said:
Neche said:
PS. Just to clarify "If you have MP, you don't need refresh"

I mean, if your just starting up and everyone is full. DEAR GOD, don't <call> for refresh, there is nothing a RDM hates more than people using <calls> to get refresh. You will get refresh, don't panic.

Correction: the one thing good rdms hate the most is when the mob has not done anything to dispel and a melee calls for dispel simply because he's not hitting. Buy some friggin +acc gear :P
yeah, I've never had anyone really have to ask me for refresh, I keep my cycle up during downtime too. But the dispel thing is what really annoys me lol I remember when a thief by the name of Smg was xping with me in Cape Terrigan, he kept calling for dispel, I'd do it and what do I see? "Eilistrae's dispel has no effect on the <t>" after the second time he did it I flipped out and what does he say? Well I dont' see what it does, I have filters on, I just know I was hitting for 0 >.>
 
Galaika said:
Eilistrae, I'm pretty sure by 'cure para, silence' he meant cure the status effects paralyze and slow, ie. have the spells paralyna and silena.
but he didn't say.. paralyna, silena, etc. He made it sound like cure, paralyze, and silence were given to red mage from whm sub only. That's what I was responding to.
 
Yeah...until you said it, it didn't occur to me he was refering to silena etc...i honestly thought he meant cure, silence and paralyze lmao. can't blame death for not understanding it when it was phrased unusually.
 
What do we do about RDMs who don't melee but still don't do their job correctly? I was pting my 55 whm and we had a rdm in the pt. The ONLY three spells they ever casted were Refresh, Dispel, and Cures. We had to shout and scream to get those Dispels too, haha. I finally got annoyed after a handful of fights and sent him a tell asking why he wouldn't enfeeble and he replied something like "Well, they don't always stick so why waste the mp?" :roll:

Finally after both me and the blm got on his case in /p, he left the pt, saying that he was sorry but that he wanted to be a main healer and not an enfeebler. WTF? :?:
 
Neche said:
I had full JSE... Waste of 3mil if you ask me. The head and body are good for the +Magic Accuraccy against Gods, but really useless other wise.

I once went out to kill Mindgazers for haku eyes, with a 75 THF friend, he subbed WHM for this cause i never had a WHM sub. He was hitting the mob for 35-50 DMG with a dagger, and i was duel weilding with enhancing magic up i was hitting all together around 45+45+18+18 to 60+60+18+18 DMG. Point is i was doing more DMG and he still had all the hate, this is only with 2 peices of JSE, and -enmity showed face. Because it would cost less MP for the two of us i had to put the JSE away. Sure it isn't cheap, but it's a must have the the RDM enthuiest. Don't get me wrong RDM AF1 is by far better.

Neche said:
Errant gives you a large boost of INT and MND, along with some MP(which I don't like personally because it screws with my HP/MP ratio.)
With decent food I can have +65(or so) INT and +30-40 MND. That is much better than Have + 13accuracy and some -Enmity.(Which Errant gives enough of anyway)

Errant is excellent armor if you want to beef up the DMG, i use it for soloing Typhoon Wyverns, i don't think the Errant Hat can replace the RDMs AF1 hat though.

Neche said:
JSE is pretty much. If your a taru, and want to look badass. Go spend it. But once I bought it all, I just sold it right back....


No. Everyone thinks the JSE looks ugly, I never bought it to look bad ass.


Neche said:
As far as melee'ing as a RDM 41+ Don't. You have far better things to be doing than Melee, the DMG you do isn't worth it.

Refresh, and enfeeb, that's all you should be doing. When your not, you rest. In most parties You will have a RDM, WHM, BLM, PLD, sometimes a DRK. That means you have 5 people to your refresh order.

The DMG is very low yes, but Meleeing is better than doing nothing, It's ok to cast Dia II or poision the mob, Melee RDMs will build TP and drop it. Again i'll say, if a RDM cannot Melee and do his job correctly, then they should not Melee if it's gonna distract them from playing to their fullest.

Neche said:
I enfeeb first, refresh later. You have MP you don't need refresh. I would do my standard, Blind, Para, Slow, Gravity, Bio Dia(Depending on what the BLM wants) then Focus on my refresh.

I usually start the Refresh as soon as we reach the camp, it prevents people from asking for it, and yes if they are not using enoug MP they will get served later

Neche said:
REFRESHING

/ma "Refresh" <st>
/wait 19
/echo ~~~*~*~*REFRESH READY*~*~*~~~

/ma "Refresh" <st>
/wait 19
/echo ~~~*~*~*REFRESH READY*~*~*~~~

ETC.

Do this 5 times. By the time you are 70+, you should know how long your refreshs last!

Mine was like this

/ma "Refresh" <t>
/Wait 18
/Tell Anttaru Refresh Ready.

I got tired of reminding myself and your right, by 70+ i took out the macro and i can just feel when the Refresh recast clock hits 0.

Neche said:
Between the time when you cast your last refresh on who-ever, you should restick enfeebs if the fight isnt over, cure, and HEAL. Doing 4-5 refreshs' a fight is 200mp! Go get that back!

If you refresh yourself, it adds up to 110mp extra for RDM rounding off to 90 MP instead in the refresh department.

After awhile you SHOULD know how long a normal Refresh last. I'm not saying time it, but you should just know. Start casting on yourself before it Wears, that means by the time refresh is Ready for the next person, you should already be casting by the time theirs wears too![/quote]

If you refresh yourself, it adds up to 110mp extra for RDM rounding off to 90 MP instead in the refresh department. I know all this and do it while i melee.

Neche said:
If your party has a constant refresh the only one who should be without MP is YOU. That's why we get convert. You SHOULD be out of MP by the time you hit chain 5! If your not, then you should be casting more.

After time yes, c'mon man don't assume i never knew this. I already mentioned the convert clock in relation to converting and MP casting.

Neche said:
If you can manage to do all of this and keep MP tip top, then Good! Do that somemore.

But i have been doing so and meleeing, any damage is good damage cause it builds TP. In Bibiki Bay AOE does not stop the chain and they will use it, It also does alot of DMG on the mob.

Neche said:
As you reach higher levels there is just no time for Melee. A mage depends on MP. Refresh gives you 3 mp a tick, THAT IS NOT THAT MUCH. When your low on MP, you don't refresh yourself then just keep refreshing until your full, that's a waste of time!

You don't think i would do such a thing do you stranger ?

3 MP per tick until it hits 150 not bad, it's the best we can do for now, and it does make a big difference when it's kept active. "Using Refresh to recover to full MP is impossible to do in an active party."

Neche said:
Melee before Refresh, I don't think that's a problem, hell you can do more than the PLD. But once you get refresh, switch to a MAGE subjob, MAGE gear, and start being a MAGE.

For RDM Melee in parties is empty space.

RDM Melee is not powerful, but in the end of the session the Melee RDM would have a higher DMG readout.



Neche said:
PS. Just to clarify "If you have MP, you don't need refresh"

I mean, if your just starting up and everyone is full. DEAR GOD, don't <call> for refresh, there is nothing a RDM hates more than people using <calls> to get refresh. You will get refresh, don't panic.

There are those that ask for Refresh as soon as the shit hits the fan. I just tell them to wait their turn, and i don't have time to explain why they are 3rd or 4th in line, they can easily take this the wrong way, and in other cases it feels like people are asking for it to spite me. I once was in a JP PT and only one of the Japanese players spoke english, he was the tank and i was doing a haste cycle for him, he demanded that i cast haste on him before it ran out, and i casted haste on myself to help keep track of his, i discovered he was cancelling out his haste and asking for it several times while i'm casting one refresh, this really pissed me fuck off. Asking a highe level RDM for Refresh is obserd if you're MP gauge is still loaded.

In closing i would like to say when i am in parties, no one can pin me for doing something wrong or out of place while i melee, I refresh, enfeebles are up and i put them back up if it wears off, i MB and i'll cut the mob with TP attacks. People can complain, but they cannot tell me what i am not doing.

I even set my camera to look where links would come about when i actually do glance at the action. Melee RDM should never look at the DMG output, that is what distracts, all you gotta know is DMG is happening. they should never Melee mobs that would stop or slow down their casting habbits either.

Yes RDM Melee sucks, but if you can do it without it costing the PT time and enfeebling magic, and 2nd MB's then Melee makes for a better performance and more DMG plain and simple the TP will come.
 
I once was in a JP PT and only one of the Japanese players spoke english, he was the tank and i was doing a haste cycle for him, he demanded that i cast haste on him before it ran out, and i casted haste on myself to help keep track of his, i discovered he was cancelling out his haste and asking for it several times while i'm casting one refresh, this really pissed me fuck off. Asking a highe level RDM for Refresh is obserd if you're MP gauge is still loaded.

in-game clock is your friend in these situations. Refresh, Haste, En-spells etc. all last about 1 hour and 7 min in-game time. So if you want to keep a haste cycle up, simply remember the time you cast the first haste, and recast it about 1 in-game hour later. That way you'll start a new cycle a couple of sec before it wears off. An example would be;

first spell @ 17:27
recast @ 18:27
recast @ 19:27

and keep doing that. Also works with Refresh if you have a problem "feeling" when it should be recast.
 
I once went out to kill Mindgazers for haku eyes, with a 75 THF friend, he subbed WHM for this cause i never had a WHM sub. He was hitting the mob for 35-50 DMG with a dagger, and i was duel weilding with enhancing magic up i was hitting all together around 45+45+18+18 to 60+60+18+18 DMG. Point is i was doing more DMG and he still had all the hate, this is only with 2 peices of JSE, and -enmity showed face.
Wow, you outdamaged a thf in melee hits, like it's something to brag about. Against an IT mob, you're going to barely hit and if you do hit you'll do barely any damage. While you keep saying "any damage is better than none," a single spell could do more than you do a whole fight, or even a single melee hit.

I get to play healer and melee in skillup parties, and I am no where near as good at my job when I'm also trying to melee. Because of that, I find it VERY hard to believe that you can keep up with everything you have to do and still have time to even swing. Even another rdm admitted they saw a definite drop in their performance when they melee'd.

Yes RDM Melee sucks, but if you can do it without it costing the PT time and enfeebling magic, and 2nd MB's then Melee makes for a better performance and more DMG plain and simple the TP will come.
I'm glad that you're admitting it, but again, if you're the only one who can manage to keep up with everything a rdm's supposed to do, fine. Just don't get offended when people tell you to stop meleeing in parties and for the love of god please don't encourage any other rdm's to follow in your footsteps. The last thing we need is a bunch of idiot rdm's saying "But this rdm can do it, so why can't I?"
 
actually, meleeing in exp-parties are not hard to do. IT's almost like being in the back-line simply casting spells if you learn to ignore the fact that you *gasp* hold a sword!

I meleed sometimes for fun in my static when I was extremely bored. But its not something I would do, ever, outside a static/friends (as in, a pick up party) for the simple fact that the party benefits more from a RDM actually changing weapons and resting.
 
I was partying in Valley of Sorrows with a melee RDM. He wasn't enfeebling at all, and when I asked him why in /tell he said it was because his enfeebling was already capped. :roll:

He said he usually hands off enfeebling to the WHM in his static so they can cap theirs, but I pointed out he wasn't in his static and I needed help keeping the party alive, and one way he could do that was to at the very least Paralyze and Slow the raptors.

I gave him some slack for having static habits that don't translate to pickup parties, but still... wow.
 
Re: Umm dispel...

Villarel said:
_Neosquall_ said:
There aren't any Evasion enhancing spells in the game besides blink, if that even qualifies.

Beetles have Rhino guard which enhances their evasion.

Moev was talking about when a monster comes in in from the pull, and Rhino Guard is a tp move not a spell, along with with the the crawler move, and wyvern move, and the move the Peryton type mob uses, but I know what you're talking about.
 
He said he usually hands off enfeebling to the WHM in his static so they can cap theirs, but I pointed out he wasn't in his static and I needed help keeping the party alive, and one way he could do that was to at the very least Paralyze and Slow the raptors.

Good thing his enhancing was not caped, or maybe he would not refresh.

No. Everyone thinks the JSE looks ugly, I never bought it to look bad ass.

It IS ugly, who wants to wear a condom hat. (no offence whms, lol)

Dose the
/wait
/echo .....message

work? cause once you hit another macro it stops the last macro you hit, so you will never see the message that timer is up. Just go like this.

/ma "Refresh" <t>
/echo /recast Refresh

RDM Melee is not powerful, but in the end of the session the Melee RDM would have a higher DMG readout.

I guess, after one battle rng/drk/blm could have 750 damage and RDm have 100. after 100 battles rng/drk/blm would be 75000 and Rdm 10000. The more you kill, the more damage you do. lol

If you see a RDM meleeing then go melee yourselves if you are a mage! BLM get your daggers and WHM get your clubs!

I had a party were all 3 meleed. Whm stoped after pld died a second time. Yelled at rdm to just plain stop and refresh and enfeeble. Blm stoped after that.
 
Bajaratt said:
I once went out to kill Mindgazers for haku eyes, with a 75 THF friend, he subbed WHM for this cause i never had a WHM sub. He was hitting the mob for 35-50 DMG with a dagger, and i was duel weilding with enhancing magic up i was hitting all together around 45+45+18+18 to 60+60+18+18 DMG. Point is i was doing more DMG and he still had all the hate, this is only with 2 peices of JSE, and -enmity showed face.
Wow, you outdamaged a thf in melee hits, like it's something to brag about. Against an IT mob, you're going to barely hit and if you do hit you'll do barely any damage. While you keep saying "any damage is better than none," a single spell could do more than you do a whole fight, or even a single melee hit.

I was not bragging about out damaging a THF, he had a dagger and a sheild and i was duil weilding Gold Swords ( this was just the two of us not in a PT) and even though he was hitting for 35-50 DMG and i was hitting with a combined 126 to 156 DMG, he still had the hate. I was mearly using this as an example on how -Enmity showed face. Only under this condition can i outdamage a THF, THF's really are strong.

RDM is not designed to blow away MP on nuking in parties, a RDM healing too much will need to rest if the convert clock is high. BLM and WHM cannot go 10 minutes without rest. Remember it's never ok for a RDM to have next to no MP, and if they cannot convert, the refresh cycles will break and debufs will either be late or not happen. MBing is ok, but not if the tides made you heal too much within the 10 minutes. You gotta understand a well ballanced RDM works off of what time they have in the convert clock.

Bajaratt said:
I get to play healer and melee in skillup parties, and I am no where near as good at my job when I'm also trying to melee. Because of that, I find it VERY hard to believe that you can keep up with everything you have to do and still have time to even swing. Even another rdm admitted they saw a definite drop in their performance when they melee'd.

Believe it, there is time to swing cause when all debufs are up i'm scanning for what needs to be done next either it be time to put back up the refresh or do an MB. Also you are not a RDM, your spells cost you more MP, and you cannot convert, when RDM are skilling up weapons, they can go without rest. You ? When you skill up you play healer as you said, so you will Rest.

Yes RDM Melee sucks, but if you can do it without it costing the PT time and enfeebling magic, and 2nd MB's then Melee makes for a better performance and more DMG plain and simple the TP will come.
Bajaratt said:
I'm glad that you're admitting it, but again, if you're the only one who can manage to keep up with everything a rdm's supposed to do, fine. Just don't get offended when people tell you to stop meleeing in parties and for the love of god please don't encourage any other rdm's to follow in your footsteps. The last thing we need is a bunch of idiot rdm's saying "But this rdm can do it, so why can't I?"

In my first post i wrote how i was not angry. What makes you think i'm offended ? I also said if a PT askes me to stop meleeing, i simply put away my blade and cast only. No doubt i will take the time to rest, and if a debuf wears off, i will get up and put it back, even though RDMs rest recovery is very slow. Also remember RDM should only nuke for MB when maintaining their prouductive enhancing and enfeebling.

I also have no desire to advertize myself as someone who can do things most people can't. Only reason why any exsperienced RDM would tell you Melee is bad is because of distractions. Uzor himself said he does it when he's bored and to him it's a simple task. Only in his static, maybe for reasons he dosn't want to cross any outsiders that resent RDM, i don't know.

I support other RDM's the best i can, cause the learning curves for it is mentally painful. Like getting yelled at for not reconizing a buff the first time you ever seen it, and with so much to do, once an hour an enemy buff might slip past your radar. I do not encourage other RDMs to bend backwards or struggle to face dissapointment. I don't want to sound arrogant either. But there are alot of crappy RDMs out there, and a crappy Melee RDM damns all Melee RDM by reputation, and it's not fair to me i think.
 
The big issue I've always had with RDM mellee is that the RDM's that do mellee usually don't understand what they are losing.

At a minimum, if you cast with a sword in hand (and if you are relying on TP to deal damage, you have to cast with your weapon in hand), you're missing either the effects of an elemental staff which will mean your enfeeebles fail far more often, or +9INT/MND from a wand which means you're variable effect enfeebles will be weaker. This isn't such an issue at 75, because exp parties are usually only fighting T-VT mobs. Before L73 though, it's important to have as many enfeebles on as much as possible, and for these enfeebles to be as strong as possible...

Unfortunately, they usually don't stop there. To make their melleing more efficient they use +Accuracy and +STR gear, and so are effectively casting at about -35INT/MND for a huge drop in effectiveness...

That combined with the fact that for every 100TP you get, you're giving the mob ~140TP (based on standard sword) generally means you're doing more harm than good...
 
I used Hume RSE boots for 3INT, 12MP, pretty much till errant for parties... they're aren't many decent boots for a RDM prior to errant... and I think all the Taru RSE is based around STR and HP... Mannequin Pumps from a CoP quest may be an option (INT, MND and MP), but otherwise a Taru would probably stick with AF boots until 70...

Again with the pants there really isn't anything prior to Errant that really stands out, although the AF pants really aren't too bad...
 
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