Requiem for a Flameboard

[CubsWoo]

You can't honestly believe that people would bring up hateful, discriminate posts and participants wouldn't bring in personal feelings? Let's try to be reasonable. The Flameboard was getting out of control in every sense. For that matter though, please understand you are not the admin or owner of the forum. No one here is. So "instead of people making decisions for themselves, we have them made for us." These forums are not subject to the freedom of speech under USA laws. They are monitored, they are watched, they are reviewed, and they are under the sole discretion of the administrator. However, if you want a place to flame people just drive to your local high school and start picking on the kids there. Because is wasn't just jokes anymore, it was immature. Sculli wants a more mature, mannered, kind, and cooperative forum. This isn't a change of what this forum stood for. This was a group of people who play a game together, and happen to talk things out here as well. That's what I saw when I came here, and I'll stand with it.

You're missing the point. Firstly, FYAD (as I have referenced multiple times) is a prime example of people goofing off and being jerks to each other in an environment where such things are just fine, and aside from the people who flip out (and subsequently get probated/banned) everyone goes in with the advance knowledge that you post there at your own risk. Those who don't feel like getting flamed don't post there, and the FYAD stuff stays in FYAD, mostly because the mod teams are much more adamant about enforcing standards outside of FYAD. Something that would get you probated for 1-3 days becomes a month probation for FYAD regulars. It's the accepted risk.

As for the other points about it being a 'kind, cooperative' forum - once again, if this is all the board is now, what sets it apart from any of the other, larger, more content-filled boards? That you only hear the opinions of your friends and can occasionally set up a CoP mission run?

And I fully understand and accept that this is Sculli's ship, and he can run it how he wants. But that doesn't mean people are going to simply accept the decision. I, and others, feel that this was the wrong choice. And if Sculli wants to delete/lock this thread and pretend dissenting opinions don't exist, that's his choice too. I won't repost should that happen.

 

[decidence]

Leave then.

You guys are being so melodramatic.

 

[CubsWoo]

Leave then.

You guys are being so melodramatic.

Funny how 'leave then' was an unacceptable choice for those who disliked the Flameboard, but for those who miss it, it's perfectly fine.

 

[Marajade]

Funny how 'leave then' was an unacceptable choice for those who disliked the Flameboard, but for those who miss it, it's perfectly fine.

because now they're saying it?

 

[Peregrine]

Funny how 'leave then' was an unacceptable choice for those who disliked the Flameboard, but for those who miss it, it's perfectly fine.

Why on earth would admin want to keep the kind of player around who thumps the FB? That's no reputation, no matter how many posters fill your boards with useless, negative crap. Those that miss the FB don't miss the FB. They miss the false idea that it was the FB that created debates. No, the FB created flames. Flames are useless. Flamers need to find somewhere else to contribute.

 

[Sneakypants]

Leave then.

People will leave. We're just chatting about changes.

You guys are being so melodramatic.

Hard not to point out bullshit when the smell engulfs.

 

[Kotsu]

The reason this forum is prefferred over the "larger" ones is because it is just as you said it, a group of friends. I can talk to someone here, then log in and see that same person in the game. That's better for me because it's as though me and that person share something. A lot of people will have problems with Sculli's decision, and as a leader he see's that coming. As a leader you make one decision and no matter what you will deal with both sides: Acceptance and Agreement as opposed to anger and resentment. That's just what comes with the job and he accepts that.

In the end, people don't have to accept the decision. However, the decision is made and whether they accept it or not they do in fact have to live with it.

As for whomever said "Why does Sculli run a FFXI forum if he's retired?" Well, I think it's because he cares about it. He wants to see it strive, see it succeed, and see a group of people remain happy talking to eachother. It's not a matter of flaming, or playing the game or not. It's a matter of doing something for someone else. A difficult concept for some to grasp, but I completely understand him and agree with it.

And I fully understand and accept that this is Sculli's ship, and he can run it how he wants.

Like he said, it's Sculli's ship. If something is rocking his ship, he's going to throw a harpoon at it before it damages the hull. Otherwise, the ship will take on too much water and sink. That's why there are rules, why they need to be strict, and why they need to be enforced. They weren't enforced strongly before, yes. That doesn't matter, because that's changed now. Time to adapt, persevere and move forward. Tomorrow is another day, and QCDN will still be here tomorrow.

 

[Sneakypants]

Why on earth would admin want to keep the kind of player around who thumps the FB? That's no reputation, no matter how many posters fill your boards with useless, negative crap. Those that miss the FB don't miss the FB. They miss the false idea that it was the FB that created debates. No, the FB created flames. Flames are useless. Flamers need to find somewhere else to contribute.

Yes I have taken you off of ignore, just to see what your take is on this...

What then is your excuse for flaming time and time again?
Not that I am asking you anything but a rhetorical question.

 

[CubsWoo]

The reason this forum is prefferred over the "larger" ones is because it is just as you said it, a group of friends. I can talk to someone here, then log in and see that same person in the game. That's better for me because it's as though me and that person share something. A lot of people will have problems with Sculli's decision, and as a leader he see's that coming. As a leader you make one decision and no matter what you will deal with both sides: Acceptance and Agreement as opposed to anger and resentment. That's just what comes with the job and he accepts that.

In the end, people don't have to accept the decision. However, the decision is made and whether they accept it or not they do in fact have to live with it.

As for whomever said "Why does Sculli run a FFXI forum if he's retired?" Well, I think it's because he cares about it. He wants to see it strive, see it succeed, and see a group of people remain happy talking to eachother. It's not a matter of flaming, or playing the game or not. It's a matter of doing something for someone else. A difficult concept for some to grasp, but I completely understand him and agree with it.

Why does a 'community of friends' and having a Flameboard have to be mutually exclusive? Just because I call someone out for being a terrible player, on a board created for that purpose, doesn't mean I can't give worthwhile information on jobs, or crafting, or show players respect for in-game accomplishments.

Many of the people who wanted the Flameboard gone were, as Sculli and Sneaky have said, the so-called 'silent majority.' They contributed to various portions of the site, and for the most part stayed far, far away from the Flameboard. The only difference for them from last week to this week is that they'll have a few less spammy posts in their GD thread about something that's already been discussed to death on KI/Alla, and there'll be fewer people around to answer their question.

 

[Peregrine]

Yes I have taken you off of ignore, just to see what your take is on this...

What then is your excuse for flaming time and time again?
Not that I am asking you anything but a rhetorical question.

The thing about rhetorical questions is that they aren't answered. Everybody just pauses and says, "Huh. Yeah how 'bout that." Then they move on.

Did you want an answer, or was that just to inform me that you already had one in mind? I knew that. Still doesn't change that I think flamers should be shown the door. I can change, because flaming was never me. Mocking what QCDN has become, which is/was a den of no-content flamers, was too fun. If people want to use the thanks button as a means to tell me they don't like me, as they have in this thread already, that's just giving admin more encouragement that he's right and they've got to go. And if I go with them, so be it, but they've got to go.

 

[Lavi]

Actually, I think the FB served it's purpose, it's just that a lot of the posts were useless filler. There was actually debates and sometimes good comments or suggestions that made the FB worth reading. The problem was too many people with either useless comments or people creating threads trying to drum up some sympathy when they deserved none. The 50+ page threads full of PC+1 posts killed any sort of debate and although at one point when Cubswoo and Asiamise started as mods on the board, it did stop for a little bit, it still resumed no less than a week later.

The real problem with the board was the posters of a majority of the threads. I don't have a personal problem with people posting about a specific RDM who didn't know how to make a refresh cycle or a melee who can't SC, but what I do care about is if the poster tried to even bother to help the player improve before going off on a possibly unneeded tyrade. Or perhaps the OP brought the problem on his/her self (of course they don't tell you that) when they tried to do soemthing good but couldn't do it in a nice way. "OMG! What the fuck do you mean you don't know what a fucking refresh cycle is, dumbass?" Comments like this don't exactly go over well when trying to teach someone game basics and is the reason why 90% of the server hates getting advice when in reality they aren't getting advice,they are being treated as an idiot. I honestly think if people had taken the time to try to explain things civily and discussed before ever bring the matter to public, half the FB threads would be gone.

Then there was the baseless accusations. I can point the finger at anyone in the game and say they are a moron, gimp, noob, cheater, gil seller, or <insert cliched phrase> without any viable proof and because I said it (not me personally, but just the action of saying it), 50% of people are going to believe me no questions asked. Take the last FB made by the Shaw imposter and maybe 1-2 people even bothered to question if Shaw posted it. Even his close friends didn't even question it which still puzzles me. Everyone and I mean everyone was so quick to jump on him and it was dare I say it, disgusting to say the least.

Then there are rarely any good resolutions made. People come to the boards expecting some resolution or someone to help them and there are none. Often times there are no possible resolutions to be made but avoid certain people. Take Blaze's recent post where Penut stole his account and sold most of his stuff. Nothing I or anyone else can do will ever replace all his stuff. All I can hope to do is offer some condolence and refuse to aid that person in the future. Or perhaps we could look at any of the MPK attempts at HNMs in the past couple of years. Nothing came of any of it. The items were never returned, the players were never reprimanded, nothing. And nothing will change.

But what are people expecting? Really? It is human nature for people to look at the negative before even thinking of the positive. Ullikummi. I bet 90% of the people recall Valkyrs stealing claim or the BoL MPK at the mere mention of his name and probably a very small few of you are thinking of the new pair of haidates your LS aquired because you got Ulli this week while beating out the competition. But is that the fault of qcdn? The forum only spread the word, it wasn't involved in any of the actions nor does it create the problems as far as I can tell. Germany. Now I can bet people recall WWII and Nazi Germany probably more than anything. How many really thought of anything besides that? Do I blame the history books? Do I tell the history books to write happy stories and neglect any possible negative images?

Don't get me wrong, I am both sad and happy at the removal of the FB, but I don't agree with removing the FB. I would have at the most fixed it. Or perhaps made seperate FBs, one for actual FB type discussions and the other for the nonsensical crap. Nothing good ever really came of the FB, but now where do I have to go when I want someone's unadulterated opinion without having to worry that I went too far?

 

[Kyrial]

Event Scheduling? Perhaps the only real server-based thread left, with (in my experience using the board) poor results compared to simply using the /shout feature in Jeuno.

Event Scheduling is the biggest reason I come to this board, honestly, and always has been. I've gotten more use out of it than I can say. If not for that board, there are so many missions and quests I would never have gotten completed.

Crafter's Corner? Aside from perhaps 10 or so members of this forum with some pretty experienced and unique views on crafting, there's nothing on that board that isn't found better/more in-depth on multiple other forums.

Honestly, to me this board has been sorta like Event Scheduling for crafting. The only time I go in there is if I'm looking for someone with the skills to craft something for me. In that, it's served its purpose quite well.

Traveller's Tavern? 73 threads in two+ years kind of speaks for itself. (I actually went back and edited this thread in, as I had honestly forgotten it existed.)

I'll admit, until Kikona started posting TheNameless Collections (which freaking rock ^^), I never went there either. The role-playing community on our server tends to prefer posting their RPs on their own private boards. This board hasn't really served any purpose other than taking up space.

LS Recruiting? See Auctionhouse, but with linkpearls instead of items.

Well, when I left my old LS to join an endgame one, I got my Nameless and lolDynamis pearls by posting here, so I'd say the board has been a success for me, at least.

In the end, I will say this. I was talking about this issue in my LS last night, and Bajaratt brought up a good point: it seems like the only people who are happy to see the FB go or even support its deletion at all are either people who didn't use it and don't care about it, or bad players/morons who have been revealed to be such in the FB. And I'll admit, I fall in the first group. I never liked the FB, and avoided it like the plague unless someone pointed me to a specific post/thread and wanted me to read it. But even though I didn't use it and honestly hated it, I'm still starting to think that deleting it wasn't the best idea. However, I'm of the opinion that as long as this is Sculli's board that he pays for and maintains, it's his decision. If so many people want it back, why doesn't anyone step up and make their own board for it? If someone who doesn't even play the game can do it, why not a dedicated player?

 

[CubsWoo]

Then there are rarely any good resolutions made. People come to the boards expecting some resolution or someone to help them and there are none. Often times there are no possible resolutions to be made but avoid certain people. Take Blaze's recent post where Penut stole his account and sold most of his stuff. Nothing I or anyone else can do will ever replace all his stuff. All I can hope to do is offer some condolence and refuse to aid that person in the future. Or perhaps we could look at any of the MPK attempts at HNMs in the past couple of years. Nothing came of any of it. The items were never returned, the players were never reprimanded, nothing. And nothing will change.

But what are people expecting? Really? It is human nature for people to look at the negative before even thinking of the positive. Ullikummi. I bet 90% of the people recall Valkyrs stealing claim or the BoL MPK at the mere mention of his name and probably a very small few of you are thinking of the new pair of haidates your LS aquired because you got Ulli this week while beating out the competition. But is that the fault of qcdn? The forum only spread the word, it wasn't involved in any of the actions nor does it create the problems as far as I can tell. Germany. Now I can bet people recall WWII and Nazi Germany probably more than anything. How many really thought of anything besides that? Do I blame the history books? Do I tell the history books to write happy stories and neglect any possible negative images?

Don't get me wrong, I am both sad and happy at the removal of the FB, but I don't agree with removing the FB. I would have at the most fixed it. Or perhaps made seperate FBs, one for actual FB type discussions and the other for the nonsensical crap. Nothing good ever really came of the FB, but now where do I have to go when I want someone's unadulterated opinion without having to worry that I went too far?

This is another case of the Flameboard being taken too seriously. When someone complains that a RDM isn't Refreshing everyone, was it posted so that RDM will read the thread, go "Golly gee gosh, I best hitch up me britches and lern2refresh or else!" and everyone would hold hands and sing that song from Grinch Who Stole Christmas and we'd all live in happy candy clouds?

No. It was a place to be pissed off, let it out, and enjoy the ensuing back-and-forth crap that sometimes took place.

The Flameboard was never the place to go for 'resolution.' I'm suprised so many people saw it that way.

 

[dedalius]

This is another case of the Flameboard being taken too seriously. When someone complains that a RDM isn't Refreshing everyone, was it posted so that RDM will read the thread, go "Golly gee gosh, I best hitch up me britches and lern2refresh or else!" and everyone would hold hands and sing that song from Grinch Who Stole Christmas and we'd all live in happy candy clouds?

No. It was a place to be pissed off, let it out, and enjoy the ensuing back-and-forth crap that sometimes took place.

The Flameboard was never the place to go for 'resolution.' I'm suprised so many people saw it that way.

I agree with this post completely. Flames were way too heated for that kind of an environment.

To Peregrine,
I have been reading threads all over QCDN for a while, and in almost every one that you get flamed in you say you can stop, but you never do. You are no better than the others, except that they don't preach something different from what they do.

 

[Lavi]

This is another case of the Flameboard being taken too seriously. When someone complains that a RDM isn't Refreshing everyone, was it posted so that RDM will read the thread, go "Golly gee gosh, I best hitch up me britches and lern2refresh or else!" and everyone would hold hands and sing that song from Grinch Who Stole Christmas and we'd all live in happy candy clouds?

No. It was a place to be pissed off, let it out, and enjoy the ensuing back-and-forth crap that sometimes took place.

The Flameboard was never the place to go for 'resolution.' I'm suprised so many people saw it that way.

I understand that, but the FB was filled with this. How is reading 90% of the threads, which could have been avoided had the OP been kind enough to help the "offender" instead of berating him/her for their short comings, worth reading? When the bulk of FB threads are RDM suck threads or <insert bad player> with no evidence or effort to help the player, there is a problem. If I have a problem with a bad player, instead of running to QCDN and posting, I either do something about it or deal with the consequences. Had I been like 90% of the community, I could have made 100 more threads and countless more posts since becoming a members, but I wisely chose not to.

 

[Marajade]

You take it that way, because you get flamed for saying really assinine things all the time. I don't flame people that don't adamantly deserve it.


And you still try to turn it around...Itsk, you don't need to realize that all you have ever done here is flame. Everyone else knows this, even if you don't.

His own post rings true in this situation, interestingly enough.

 

[CubsWoo]

I understand that, but the FB was filled with this. How is reading 90% of the threads, which could have been avoided had the OP been kind enough to help the "offender" instead of berating him/her for their short comings, worth reading? When the bulk of FB threads are RDM suck threads or <insert bad player> with no evidence or effort to help the player, there is a problem. If I have a problem with a bad player, instead of running to QCDN and posting, I either do something about it or deal with the consequences. Had I been like 90% of the community, I could have made 100 more threads and countless more posts since becoming a members, but I wisely chose not to.

Have you ever tried to 'help' someone in this game unsolicited? I have. Most of the time, if a person is poor enough at their job to require unsolicited help, they either

a) Blacklist you immediately

b) Ignore everything you say

c) Tell you to STFU because they have 8 level 77 jobs

d) Post a flame about you because you're a busybody and you have no right to tell them how to play.

You're right in the sense that a lot of the flames had poor/any direction. But sometimes the alternatives simply aren't there. And now, there are none.

 

[Sabia]

The major problem with the flameboard was it became the board. I'm not talking about little flames and stuff popping up in GD and Good Times, I'm talking about the overall aura of the board. In the last year this board has become a breeding ground for negativity - to the point that people in this thread think Good Times is useless. It was a beast that got out of control and was destroying the rest of QCDN.

I know great players who stopped posting, great players who were scared to post in other sections of the board because of what QCDN was known for. The "If you don't like the flameboard stay out of it" attitude doesn't work because even people/shells who want nothing to do with it got dragged into it. Good people who say "I don't visit QCDN, too much drama."

There was a time where I really enjoyed the content on the flameboard but as I mentioned before it's been well over a year since that happened. I've watched the QCDN community grow and evolve since April 6th, 2004 and I'm not one of those people some of you refer to who either A) is not an active member or B) does not read the flameboard. I do read the flameboard, it helps me keep track of the other boards I watch - After reading a flame on the flameboard I knew there was something wrong in Good times.

I do beleive there is a place and a time for heated discussion and yes, even flames but frankly what I'm seeing done here is an up-rooting of an out of control board, with efforts to return it to what it once was and find a way to better manage it so it doesn't ruin everything else.

EDIT: What I mean to say is, there was a time when the Flameboard was full of great, entertaining conflict with a very small bit of crap. It wasn't difficult to find the gold content because it wasn't being mired by a never ending flood of useless PC +1s and the "No you're stupid, no you're stupid" conversations. Up until it was deleted it was the exact opposite of what I've said in the previous sentance.

 

[Lavi]

Actually, I get more success rate than failure with people. Although most of the time I help people I HELP people. I take the bribery route which works wonders. I mostly refer to newer players teaching them basics but I give them a little starting money or maybe some gear and they listen attentively after that. A little kindness goes a long way. I don't mean to say you should farm your gil and expect to give it away, but you have to show some kindness before someone is willing to work with you.

I agree there are some people who are not willing to listen and will do everything except what you tell them and by all means, flame those people, but making hundreds of flame threads like this just diminishes the value of the board. If this is what you really need the FB for, then get a blog and have your own personal flame board.

 

[Lavi]

The major problem with the flameboard was it became the board. I'm not talking about little flames and stuff popping up in GD and Good Times, I'm talking about the overall aura of the board. In the last year this board has become a breeding ground for negativity - to the point that people in this thread think Good Times is useless. It was a beast that got out of control and was destroying the rest of QCDN.

I know great players who stopped posting, great players who were scared to post in other sections of the board because of what QCDN was known for. The "If you don't like the flameboard stay out of it" attitude doesn't work because even people/shells who want nothing to do with it got dragged into it. Good people who say "I don't visit QCDN, too much drama."

There was a time where I really enjoyed the content on the flameboard but as I mentioned before it's been well over a year since that happened. I've watched the QCDN community grow and evolve since April 6th, 2004 and I'm not one of those people some of you refer to who either A) is not an active member or B) does not read the flameboard. I do read the flameboard, it helps me keep track of the other boards I watch - After reading a flame on the flameboard I knew there was something wrong in Good times.

I do beleive there is a place and a time for heated discussion and yes, even flames but frankly what I'm seeing done here is an up-rooting of an out of control board, with efforts to return it to what it once was and find a way to better manage it so it doesn't ruin everything else.

Exactly. The FB has a place in my opinion, but the fact that it overshadowed everything else about the forums was becoming a problem. QCDN should be a welcoming place for everyone and when the FB starts having a negative effect and scaring people away, there is a problem. Again, I don't agree with closing it; I do, however, agree with fixing it. Get rid of the PC+1. Get rid of the trolls who add nothing. Get rid of the junk. Just fix it, don't remove it.