SAMs not subbing NIN in pickup merit pts

[Zoolander]

What the fuck does Ruke have to do with SAM/WAR? I'm not emulating anyone, you can go SAM/WAR on birds with polearm if the setup is geared towards that. Obviously no, the average players shouldnt be subbing war, but where the hell did I ever say they should be?

Any idiot can tell that previous guy is a noob when he says he'll never sub anything but war, are you really wasting time trying to argue with that sentiment?

And jesus, get off Ruke's dick. I used him as an example because people are aware of his tests generally. Haste is haste and Jumps are Jumps, SAM/DRG is a great pure DD sub with more defensive abilities than /WAR has.

You guys need to take the training wheels off sometime. People said the same shit about lots of other things that are now the norm. I'm not saying SAM/WAR or SAM/DRG is or should be the default merit pt subs, but jeese open up a little bit.

 

[Aselus]

It sounds to me like too many people are trying to emulate rukeshin when he says he goes sam/war without realizing he has over 30%+ damage reduction macro swaps(including D ring), extremely fast reflexes, the ability to pull 30k+/H when meriting, and a damned relic weapon.

no... not trying to emulate him..uhhh...don't even know who 'Rukeshin' is lol... really this game does not require 'really fast reflexes' it's not frigin robotron or DDR on heavy(which is quite fun, and if u don't mind looking like a JP school girl, ParaParaParadise is fun too)...those required fast rexles ~_~... iono i've almost stopped caring about this thread, noone is going to convince the other in any direction so might as well just have fun w/ it XD

And for those who complain about hasso slowing down utsu... Cancel the fucking thing if it's such a problem and then put it back up right after. Is that so hard? If your nin is lv 37+ did you figure out how to cancel ni properly? It's basically the same thing only you might decide to cancel the hasso while mid cast if it's ni you're doing since ni casts so fast that the difference in time when casting NI is almost nonexistent. If my sam got to 75 subbing nin and managed fine with ichi you can do it with Ichi AND ni.

Uhh.... same statement goes the other way? pfft you could get to 75 doing sam/bst .. I digress, if you're canceling Hasso to speed up Ni, you're not in hasso, unless you're past the recast timer for it, in which case this is no different from switching to seigan... which really as /nin you should do anyways if you're going for uber safety... uhhh... Which i'm guessing since we where blabbering on how you 'should be in hasso all the time Zomg' would make this moot.... brawr?

I've tried to sneak in war when there are 2 healers in pt or whatever. it doesnt work. it just result in either a dead sam or an mp sink. After i concluded that the one pt i did sub war in was because the retarded pt ORDERED me to go /war or /thf(great idea. make a soboro sam go /thf!) when I started to run to camp as /nin. I didnt die but only cause I was lucky that the pld was competent enough for me to only tank 1/2~3/4 of the time and it ended quickly.

Multiple people on this thread have said(including myself) that we have had fine pts w/ subs that where /war... two healers? uhh...maybee at mamool? 0.o maybe one of them is DNC?... 0.o

hmm if Merited Shikikoyo and using a 5sam,1dnc setup does the dnc theoretically have endless MP for healing/hasting/debuffing? ~_~ iono

EDIT: since noone seems to have pointed it out. /drg is for the bloody 5% haste from the earring( the acc bonus and jumps are nice but you NEED the 5% haste for it to even theoretically work). if you're going to /drg at least grab the earring first. dont even bother with the drg belt. buy a life belt. If dragoons need to have acc on thier pentathrust macros then you certainly need to have some acc when doing a WS on a job that doesnt have A ranked skill in polearm.

READ ON ONLY IF INTERESTED IN /DRG CRAP...OTHERWISE IGNORE.

I mentioned it, few times.... yes the 5% haste is there, just remember to swap something in for WSing. And yes prolly w/o this earring the sub wouldn't be worth it. (Side note on this: w/ usukane set +haste belt u almost hit EQ haste cap[and you do hit it w/ av belt...but..uhm...yeah ignore that statement] and have a 5hit build w/ 480 weapons easily[polearms, very few gk], as well as an easy 6hitter w/ 450gk, possibly w/ some wiggle room.. i did the math on this a while ago, don't have it at work, I think there was a way to 5hit the 450s as well, w/o sacreficing haste/too much haste, if anyone is interested pm me i'll dig it up)

Free 10 acc isn't bad...yeah.. that's up to a 5% chance to hit ;-P
And of course there are jumps... Also if using GK, if done right, can let ya do a self Light chain w/o 2hr.. always nice for speeding a kill(long as it's done in a good prt of the mobs HP), and you won't have HJ to shave hate if you do it, since you used it to build TP.(i don't have soboro, but w/ soboro this is retarded easy to do, in my practice i've only been able to hit it maybe 1/20 times... i either need more practice at knowing exactly when to hit my macros...or, just thought of this, need to make a giant macro with /waits just for this... will attempt.w^^..anyways...offrail

Only bummer is an extra set of some VIT swaps for jump/hj, right now i'm still building up STR items, so i haven't invested into these much, but was thinking of getting warwolf... anyone else /drg and has good gear recommendations for jumps?

HJ is awesome to save for if ThirdEye drops w/ too much time remaining.. Hj and lose hate "most of the time"(tm) ;-P 33% is more then ppl think.

I'd say the Polebelt is competent if u want to penta in it.. it's really 10acc vs +4.5acc(floored) and 5attack at 75... hmm depends on how often you're hitting and if you eating sushi or meat?^_^, i was eating sushi.. ugh expensive on colibri.w Not sure maybee potent would be better, if the 3str pushes you into another dmg point.... mmm need to math it. Anyone know if WSkill is used in anything aside from ACC and ATT calculations? I would use potent belt/life belt if i wasn't eating or eating meat, def tho.

ugh... don't want to get into the /drg discussion here.w

 

[Aselus]

Stopped reading there. This post isn't about pting with people you know, it's about pickup merit pts. If you're pting with friends you're welcome to do whatever the hell you want to because you're friends and you know each other's playing styles.

this post is about merits in general.. pick up or otherwise.

meh at least people are talking this forum was dry as the Atacama

 

[Zyndara]

this post is about merits in general.. pick up or otherwise.

Since Rappa started the thread, I'd assume he knows what information he was wanting to discuss. Merit parties with pals and meriting in general are totally different. When you're partying with friends, it's a lot more casual than in a normal, random party.

 

[Phraust]

Subbing Nin is dumb.

Subbing War, you'll need shadows because you will pull hate.
Subbing Nin you wont need shadows because you won't pull hate.

The answer is to sub Drg. When you pull hate, and you will, but you can jump it off.

Anyway you cut it, if you pull hate even subbing War AND that is a problem, then the fact is the rest of your group is gimp as shit if the mob stays alive long enough to be an issue.

If you're severely concerned about people taking damage, have everyone just come Rdm/Whm and just bore the mobs to death... Sure it will take 5 min a mob to kill but you get stoneskin, phalanx, pro, shell, spikes, heals, blind, para, slow, Sleeps and bind when shit gets crazy...

 

[Khajit]

this post is about merits in general.. pick up or otherwise.

meh at least people are talking this forum was dry as the Atacama

No. This thread is about you either being too gimp to pull hate with your sam, too stubborn to realize you're hindering the party, or or a just plain crappy player.
EDIT: and yeah. i couldnt fulltime hasso pre 74 and had to use siegan to mitigate damage back then. If anything that fact that it took BOTH seigan and utsu to even try and stand a decent chance of living also stands as proof that seigan alone is not a good enough method of reducing damage taken.
EDIT again: er it's about what rappa said. my bad. aselus simply made it seem like that's what the entire thing was about.

 

[Rappa]

this post is about merits in general.. pick up or otherwise.

No. I made the topic, I know what it's about, lol. I wouldn't make a topic to complain about what my friends do in merit pts. If I had a problem with what a friend did in-game I'd just talk to them about it. This is about the general public and my observations in pickup merit pts that end up being failure pts that don't chain above 30 or so.

Phraust, High Jump's on a 3 minute timer. Either /drg is doing something amazing to your damage and thus making you pull hate more than once every 3 minutes or it's doing nothing particularly useful and you might as well be subbing /nin so on the offchance you pull hate you aren't an mp sink.

Edit: A lot of melee like to flex their e-peen in merit pts. This may or may not come as a surprise to you, but mages also take a lot of pride in what they do. When I'm healing a merit pt where the melee know what they are doing, I can keep Haste on every member literally 100% of the time so the "effect of Haste has worn off" or whatever message never comes up. If I'm having to constantly blow mp on fucktards who want to do 300 more damage on their weapon skill, it screws with that process. So melee please remember, your mages are trying to do the best job they can as well, so don't be a dick to them.

 

[mdkuser]

phraust remember that not every gimp can manage a relic. so its /nin for the commoners.

 

[Phraust]

phraust remember that not every gimp can manage a relic. so its /nin for the commoners.

Actually, its not even that, its about having a balanced group. I am not throwing my relic in peoples' faces, and I know what I am getting into when I merit (Which is why its rare I even bother lol).

But when you all have the same gear tier/level and all have the same relative configuration, bouncing hate becomes easy. If you're the Sam/War in a merit pt and the other's are Sam/Nin or whatever, the Sam/War is going to be ripped ot shreds and yelled at; had the other sams come /war as well, hate would be balanced etc, and one person would not be taking the brunt of the damage, by dealing the lion's share of the damage at the same time.

When you have a balanced group, and you're bouncing hate around, Mobs die faster. Sure you may have to cure a little more, but there is a tactical difference between Peking flurry or firespit going off once versus twice in a battle.

If you look at Damage taken in relation to EXP given, I'd bet that a Sam/<non-Nin> and a War/Sam party while taking more damage over all, on paper takes less damage on a Damage to EXP ratio.

 

[mdkuser]

I sub war in einherjar cause pulling hate isn't an isuue. Hell I even voke mobs, not that he does anythin lol. Just not in meripo.

 

[ds083roadkill]

When you have a balanced group, and you're bouncing hate around, Mobs die faster. Sure you may have to cure a little more, but there is a tactical difference between Peking flurry or firespit going off once versus twice in a battle.

If you look at Damage taken in relation to EXP given, I'd bet that a Sam/<non-Nin> and a War/Sam party while taking more damage over all, on paper takes less damage on a Damage to EXP ratio.

this is correct sir.

Debate over.

 

[Rappa]

But when you all have the same gear tier/level and all have the same relative configuration, bouncing hate becomes easy.

Which as we know, always happens in pickup group merit pts.

Edit: Renamed topic since people are oblivious.

 

[Lyall]

Subbing Nin is dumb.


Subbing Nin you wont need shadows because you won't pull hate.

Anyone else have a problem with this? In all my life as a DD I've always had issues with big weaponskills taking hate, /nin or not.

 

[Langly]

And for those who complain about hasso slowing down utsu... Cancel the fucking thing if it's such a problem and then put it back up right after. Is that so hard?

This has been a pet peeve of mine since the beginning of playing Ninja. When will SE let us cancel shadows/statii (w/e) from the command line?

/cancel blink or /cancel protect or /cancel utsusemi or /cancel Hasso

Happens just enough to tork you off. You'll cancel protect, you won't time it right, you'll be futzin around in your menus and + won't always get you to the upper status bar in time. Man I would LOVE a command to cancel a status.

 

[Grandphoenix]

This has been a pet peeve of mine since the beginning of playing Ninja. When will SE let us cancel shadows/statii (w/e) from the command line?

/cancel blink or /cancel protect or /cancel utsusemi or /cancel Hasso

Happens just enough to tork you off. You'll cancel protect, you won't time it right, you'll be futzin around in your menus and + won't always get you to the upper status bar in time. Man I would LOVE a command to cancel a status.

what?

 

[Langly]

I fucking love you right now Grandphoenix.

Edit: You don't know how awesome that is for me. You've honestly made my week. Sorry for the derail.

 

[kisada]

skimmed most of the thread, but it seems like a lot of people are killing aselus for doing something that's widely accepted by the majority of top-geared and game-educated sams for quite a long time.

If your sam is well geared, you're a smart player, and you understand how to properly utilize sam's job abilities, then subbing war is the optimal choice not just in merit pts, but most events as well (exception is drg sub for some stuff like meriting).


Knowing how to properly use seigan/third eye is what matters the most, and i'm sure there are quite a few people who, intent on criticizing aselus as someone with insane ideas, don't understand how it really works. I leveled the job myself till about 70ish until i educated myself on exactly how to use it, and the knowledge truly makes all the difference. I think there is a lot of short-sightedness when it comes to this discussion just because people haven't seen it used properly.

For those who don't understand, seigan and third eye work like this: third eye can absorb multiple hits depending on how new it is. So if you put it up and start taking hits right away, there's a much bigger chance for you to absorb those multiple hits right away. Sometimes several things will be chasing me and if i put a new 3rd eye up i'll absorb 7+ hits right there. However, if you put 3rd eye up and then take a hit after it's been up for 15-20 seconds, it's most likely gonna die right there after one hit. So what a lot of people do is they just stick 3rd eye up long before a fight starts, use a ws when the fight does begin, and then get beat down because they lost their only shadow and have to wait on the new timer. This is exactly what i used to do and it's the worst way to do it.


I should add that gear matters most when you're actively trying to tank some really tough things that hit hard, so stuff like HQ tanking gear and jelly ring, etc. are important. Other than that, it's really about knowing how to effectively use seigan and third eye. Add it all up and you can comfortably tank quite a few things in this game on sam.


My ls does pretty much all the events there are in the game and the majority of the time i set up parties and jobs as well. Off the top of my head, there's only two events i'd ask people to sub nin for: einherjar cause some of the aoes are extremely nasty, and dynamis windurst. Other than that, maybe a couple random znm mobs, but that's about it.

For everything else: other dynamises, most znm's, salvage, pretty much just about whatever you can name, there's not really much chance i'd ask a sam to sub nin. And of course merits.



Anyway. I'm not really interested in preaching about which sub is best, as i'm sure quite a few of you guys won't be willing to change how you do things nor are you interested in accepting the mechanics of a highly effective job. However, there seems to be quite a bit of misinformation about sam/war, and maybe someone will read this thread and consider a more optimal way to play the job than what's "acceptable" by most of you folks. Believe me, i'm very stubborn about things like jobs/subjobs, and what's most efficient at events, but accepting outside views, trying them out myself, and discussing them with other people was one of the most important things i've ever done, both as a player and as a leader.

It's unfortunate that a lot of people are piling on someone because he's proposing a subjob choice that goes against what many of you guys think is the only appropriate sub.

 

[Rappa]

I don't think /war is a bad subjob, Kisada. I actually think that in situations where all members are well-geared and know what they are doing, it's optimal. However, for the nth time, this topic is about PICKUP MERIT PARTIES. You cannot go into a pickup merit party assuming that everyone else in your party is going to be able to support your subjob. Now if a sam joined a party I made and asked if war would be okay and I saw his gear and knew the other players, I would probably say yes. Of course in an end-game linkshell where everyone has gear that most fledgling 75s only see in their dreams at night, you can get away with subbing /war. However, in a pickup party, and in particular when you don't have end-game gear yet, you should be subbing /nin. I don't know how to make the "pickup group" part any more clear than I have in every post I've made in this topic along with the new topic title.

Also yes, I know exactly how Seigan works. On my drk/sam macro set (yes, I DO sub sam on drk when the situation is appropriate!), I have my seigan/third eye macros.

 

[Xzerper]

I was in a merit PT on colibri yesterday as /drg w/ pole belt and haste earring(usualy don't do polearm but for colibri hard not to)

Sorry, here I have to 'lol' If your accuracy is fine, you can use Swift Belt, and some random Acc Belt for WS. And by your comments I can safely assume you was full timing this Pole Belt too.

We also had a sam/war Tanking

Everyone /NIN and a DD tanks. Whoever has hate tanks. Less Heals means more Hastes on the melee, less heals on melee means longer you can kill without resting. Providing the haster is not a DNC, then only the TP ramming out the butt is applied.

and a sam/nin in the pt as well.

Someone is doing it right.

A) you slow yourself down from casting shadows INCREDIBLY slow while under seigan/hasso,

Cancel Hasso/Seigan > Cast Shadows > Recast the JA since its like what, a minute recast almost? SAMs who do not cancel Seigan or Hasso while casting Shadows are just plain incompetent. But you don't sub /NIN so Idk what to call you.

B) really... things die too fast

Then why do you need to use /Melee sub and try to DMG it more, and jsut be a bigger MP sink when the mob already dies too fast? Your /melee going to make it die maybe 1-2 sec faster? Lolz.

and your healer should be able to keep up if you get damaged...

Your healer shouldn't have to heal someone who doesn't have the common sense to least try to mitate damage. We are healers, not your Biotch.

if healers are going to be lazy,

Its not lazy, its being excessive.

or be 'haste' bots,

Haste faster attacks mroe dmg less timers on shadows Wut?

then use a dnc healer in ur merit pt, or a brd,

Not to lol@this, as myself have had some SUPER awesome DNC Burns with 5 melee and have 0 problems keeping it going. BRD Main healer? Yeah...no.

whm on colibri can't rest... how is he keeping his mp up anyways? /smn and refresh gear is not always enough.

/SCH and Dark Arts on WHM, even as WHM/SCH, I've seen some WHMs sub it up and get 200~MP frm Sublimination, and get 100-150 MP Aspirs every 60seconds. Don't barely need to rest, and /SMN suffices, good HMP gear and cookies suffice easily for a Melee BURN. RDM not always needed.

C) honestly... Seigan/Third eye is amazing

Indeed it is, not not in a Merit PT, where you can fulltime Hasso and make up for the loss in Haste/STR+10 for TPing/WS while you're stuck always using seigan because you being a MP sponge.

instant and usualy will last more then enough time to equal out to/compensate for that Sam/nin in the pt that turns around to cast shadows and lose hate(while getting hit in the proccess and half the time interupted)

It's called Proper Shadowblinking, without Hasso or Seigan on. Easy to do. Not hard, less the mob is don't have Elegy on them or it wore.

D) subbing a job for ONE ability, that casts slow, reduces the usefullness of your main job and does not complement it in ANY way shape or form, is a weak easy way out.

No, it makes merit PTs go exceptionally smooth and constant making a better overall EXP per hour, instead of EXP per minute.

I understand there are some end game situations where you can't get hit and all and it might be an utter life saver(though form my research i have yet to find one realistic case where this is true)

If you never get hate in endgame or get hit you must have some uber skillz! AoE wut?

i'm sorry for the 'perfectionist' look of most people who seem to wet themselves at /nin, but really it's not that great.. especially for a job that has something that can be better. As i said, if you REALLY want survivability /dnc u get erase, debuffs, heals and if there's no other DNC in the PT a whole-party slow heal benefit w/ drain samba II or aspir samba (if you have a PT of drks or something)

Bold #1: Lol
Bold #2: CAN be better, but not in Merit PT.
Bold #3: Any SAM who sub DNC in merit PT should go die.

one of these days do the math on the 'ever loved' and 'perfect' utsusemi vs someone that can switch to seigan/third eye at the right time. or even just stay in it and STILL be more effective w/o the hasso bonus.

Why you even suggesting this? Of course SAM/WAR or SAM/DRG will always do more damage than /NIN on a SAM will. But I promise you, that you will not get as much EXP as those /NINs will let alone be able to stay in a party long(If the party is smart) as another subjob class. Less you're a GOOD SAM/DRG that knows when to Jump to erase hate.

Melees that don't sub nin in a merit pt are selfish idiots that prefer do good dmg vs getting the pt good exp.

QFT.

My 2-cents.

 

[Icewolf]

completely useless subjobs in merit pts.

I don't think /war is a bad subjob

>.>

Also in your original post you never mentioned pick up parties at all, prolly why everyone is confused.

But I promise you, that you will not get as much EXP as those /NINs

That sir, is a broken promise. The best exp/hr possible requires /war, /sam, or /drg subs. The first voke subbing nin is helpful though.