Someone's got a superiority complex

[Vilurum]

No, I didn't mean to imply that you suddenly concocted it as a retroactive justification. What I meant to imply was that it would've been much more useful to mention it in the first place. Since yes, you *were* mentioning it in comparison to *other ToAU camps* the whole time. Which is why so many people popped in to point out the validity of non-ToAU camps to you. Because usually the reason for ToAU-or-bust is ignorance, rather than a deliberate intent to get ISP.

All those responses that have annoyed you so much, are an unintended result of your omitting that rather pointed fact of ISP-saving factoring into your *own* motivation. So it's really not very sensible to get annoyed at their responses based on your own incomplete original information.

Not to mention you had a bit of a double standard going, as you were *more* than willing to suggest to the other party that they go to CP areas. Who's to say they didn't have ISP of their own to save up for? Fact remains, as I mentioned a page or two ago, that yes you were there first and that is that. But it still strikes me as a little silly to have ISP be such a strong motivation for yourself, but be quite willing to direct other people off to CP areas as if they couldn't possibly have the exact same motivation.

 

[Zyndara]

Not to mention you had a bit of a double standard going, as you were *more* than willing to suggest to the other party that they go to CP areas. Who's to say they didn't have ISP of their own to save up for? Fact remains, as I mentioned a page or two ago, that yes you were there first and that is that. But it still strikes me as a little silly to have ISP be such a strong motivation for yourself, but be quite willing to direct other people off to CP areas as if they couldn't possibly have the exact same motivation.

There is no double standard involved at all. The fact is, we picked a perfectly reasonable place to merit considering that we were looking for both the chance to get exp and isp. WE WERE THERE FIRST. We didn't camp on top of someone, we didn't go to an overcrowded area and screw up other people's exp. We were doing fine and bothering no one until this whole event occurred. I suggested CP areas to them because i knew, having /sea'd the other areas, that ToAU was pretty croded other than Mt. Z.

You're acting like I would refuse to merit in CP areas or like the Mire was crowded and we pushed in there regardless, refusing to go to CP spots, or worse, that this lower level party was there and we intruded on their party. I have in the past and will continue to party in CP areas for meriting. What I will not do is get pushed out of an area by a party who comes in long after me because they feel they are somehow more entitled to that space. Yes, ISP was part of the reason we chose ToAU. It was our right to do that, since we were not infringing upon anyone. We did what should have been done to assure we would not be negatively affecting anyone. Some other party wants to not /sea and not scout and tell me to move? Bullshit. And it's ridiculous that people are trying to dump on our party like we did something wrong.

If we had searched and it was crowded, we likely would have gone to a CP spot despite our desire to exp in an IS area. But that was not the case. And no one should be telling us we were obligated to move after we had started and had been undisturbed for over an hour.

 

[Vilurum]

To repeat myself for the third or fourth time, and in fact you just quoted me saying it, you had valid reasons for picking where you went to, you were there first, and that was that. Don't argue back to me as if I'm suggesting that you should've moved when they came.

What I'm pointing out is that you were previously chewing out people for suggesting non-ToAU camps to you and thereby implying you were ignorant and didn't know about them, and only *after* that did you bother mentioning the reason why in this case you factored non-ToAU camps out of the equation. It's just illogical to get upset at the people giving alternate camp suggestions with the events coming in that sequence.

If you were assuming people would have assumed that ISP was part of your motivation, you need to work on your perspective. Sorry, but most people aren't going to assume that someone there for ToAU-or-bust is there for ISP. Most people have all the ISP they could possibly want - back in the early days of ToAU, yeah, going there *for ISP* could have been arguable, but it's been out a year now, so that's not a big motivation for most people any more.

 

[Zyndara]

What I'm pointing out is that you were previously chewing out people for suggesting non-ToAU camps to you and thereby implying you were ignorant and didn't know about them, and only *after* that did you bother mentioning the reason why in this case you factored non-ToAU camps out of the equation. It's just illogical to get upset at the people giving alternate camp suggestions with the events coming in that sequence.

I read everything you've said. I "chewed them out" because I said in the first post in this thread that almost all other ToAU areas were crowded. When we saw there was space in the Mire, we went there... Some of the reasons being A) we were all in whitegate at the time we decided to merit, B) there was plenty of space for us at the time we scouted (and even more so since a party told us they were leaving as we came in), and C) it was a chaince to get some isp toward perdu items (since, god forbid, some of us don't have oodles of isp saved like the rest of the world apparently). I didn't feel I needed to give a full resume of those to all the readers since the argument was never "are there any other places to merit than the mire." I can't control what other people want to argue about in this thread. The main point was arguing the audacity of someone coming in after another party was already there and telling them to move, not whether we as a merit party were justified in choosing a CP area over a ToAU spot.

 

[Zyndara]

The main point was arguing the audacity of someone coming in after another party was already there and telling them to move, not whether we as a merit party were justified in choosing a CP area over a ToAU spot.[/QUOTE]

Damn edit... strike that, reverse it: ToAU spot over a CP spot.

 

[Vilurum]

The argument was, yes, originally the stuff you brought up. It was also established several pages ago that a. no, the other party did not have the authority to tell you to leave and b. the other guy's intent (which didn't come across clearly) wasn't to tell your party to leave so much as to pick on his friends.

In other words, case closed on that subject, and has been for some time, it had even started moving into the usual flameboard derails. The more recent discussion that this topic has evolved to, is the more general concept of good choices of merit camps, to which all that info irrelevant to the original topic (such as *why* you picked that camp), is suddenly much more relevant.

I'm not discussing the first topic. I'm discussing the second. I fully agree that why you were there is irrelevant to the subject of another party wanting you out. (Well unless you were there for no good reason at all, but that wasn't the case.) Why you were there is, however, relevant to the subject of why someone would choose to go to Caedarva and deal with the unpleasant TP moves, general overcrowding, and low exp per kill, is it not?

Oh and regarding ISP... there are exactly two reasons why someone wouldn't have a ton of ISP at this point over a year after ToAU release:

1. The character is relatively new, or has been busy and playing infrequently, or just plain hasn't been exping or meriting much. In other words, they never had the ISP to begin with.

2. The character has been around fairly consistently and exping/meriting in ToAU areas fairly consistently for a good long while, and thus has accumulated a fairly large amount of ISP. They have, however, spent it all on this or that - perhaps ISNMs, perhaps turning it into imperial gold pieces for gil, perhaps something else. In other words, they could have had the ISP, but they short-sightedly spent it on other stuff without waiting to see what else it could be useful for.

This isn't an entirely bad idea - after all, imperial gold pieces aren't worth nearly as much as they used to be, and turning ISP into coins was exceptionally profitable right when the Walahra Turban was discovered - but all the same, it kinda exempts anyone in this category from deserving sympathy for "oh noez, I can't afford my Perduz". Because they did have the ISP and they still benefited from it - they just lacked the foresight to keep a fair amount of ISP (predictable amounts too, it mirrors CP costs) in "savings" until finding out what *all* of the rank-buyable ISP gear was.

Either way, point being, if someone insists on ToAU areas, I don't think the first thought in most people's minds is "oh, they must want ISP" - it's far more likely to be "oh, yet another sheep following the crowd, who can't go anywhere unpopular or remember any older spots". So it's definitely not a remotely safe assumption to go "ok, I was specifying ToAU areas, so *obviously* people would come to the conclusion that we wanted ISP".

 

[Davion]

Not to derail or has ToAU just sucked the fun once had in EXP/Merit parties?

 

[Raesvelg]

Oh and regarding ISP... there are exactly two reasons why someone wouldn't have a ton of ISP at this point over a year after ToAU release:

1. The character is relatively new, or has been busy and playing infrequently, or just plain hasn't been exping or meriting much. In other words, they never had the ISP to begin with.

2. The character has been around fairly consistently and exping/meriting in ToAU areas fairly consistently for a good long while, and thus has accumulated a fairly large amount of ISP. They have, however, spent it all on this or that - perhaps ISNMs, perhaps turning it into imperial gold pieces for gil, perhaps something else. In other words, they could have had the ISP, but they short-sightedly spent it on other stuff without waiting to see what else it could be useful for.

Actually, you left out a very important THIRD option as to why a given individual might in fact be running low on IS.

They spent it on something useful that they wanted.

I myself am down to about 6-7k at the moment after buying my Perdu Sickle. It's not shortsighted, it was in fact quite purposeful and entirely my intent. I even saved up some extra so that I wouldn't find myself unable to use the various IS driven options we have in ToAU.

But, to be honest, there are more pieces I would like to acquire eventually, and as such if given the option of roughly equal xp between a CoP zone and a ToAU zone, I'll almost invariably choose ToAU.

 

[Zyndara]

Either way, point being, if someone insists on ToAU areas, I don't think the first thought in most people's minds is "oh, they must want ISP" - it's far more likely to be "oh, yet another sheep following the crowd, who can't go anywhere unpopular or remember any older spots". So it's definitely not a remotely safe assumption to go "ok, I was specifying ToAU areas, so *obviously* people would come to the conclusion that we wanted ISP".

It is also not a safe assumption that because someone opts to party in a reasonable, non-crowded camp in a ToAU spot that they are somehow ignorant that other options exist. Maybe it's just me but I don't speak to others as to where they should camp unless asked, especially in regard to players I am aware have been in this game long enough to know. I find it pretty condescending.

 

[Icewolf]

I'm saying when everywhere else ToAU was crowded, and you're interested in meriting where you can also accrue ISP (some of us are saving it), the Mire is not as abyssmal as so many of you are trying to make it out to be unless you or your party is inept. [/B]

I see what your saying. Personally, when I make a pt, BEFORE I invite a single person I do three things. Make sure I have a bard, a red mage, and the area's for real camps arnt crowded. I don't form the pt then say "HAY, looks like all good camps are taken, lets go fuck over some 66-74 parties, sound good guys?"

You ruining multiple parties exp for your own. But, differance of opinion I guess.

 

[Lavi]

What I think is that you're a real asshole for trying to make this some linkshell based bullshit. I haven't thought much of you and your pissy attitude for a long time and I think even less of you now. How dare you talk about Fury like you have any right to say anything about it. Who the fuck are you?

I don't know who you think you're talking to but I'm not a rookie at this game and I couldn't give a good goddamn about what you think about exp. It wasn't chosen from some website, I know from my own personal experience what kind of exp I can get and where I can get it, as well as trust the experience and judgement of people a lot less needlessly argumentative, and more reputable than yourself. And I know that people like you who think you know everything and that everyone else is wrong are usually narrow-minded drones who are so sure they're 100% correct 100% of the time that they don't want to listen to anything anyone has to say.

Again, and try actually getting this, because after this I'm done with your garbage: It was excellent exp and I have 5 other people who can attest to it. If you have gotten "mediocre exp" there perhaps it's because of your lack of skill or the lack of skills of your party and not because that area has to suck for anyone else who merits there. If all the hot spots ie: the best merit spots are occupied, you're apparently one of those idiots who would cram into an overpopulated area so you could get your merits and piss on what it did to other people's exp and chains. I'm not like that. I'd choose an almost empty mire over ganking my own and other's exp merely so I could get the stamp of approval from people like you.

A LS thing? I am guessing, but I am probably right that most of the people in that party are in fact Fury members. The reason I brought it up was because it's hypocritical to say you can lay claim to a camp because you're there first when a lot of your LS members, including some who were in this very same exp party, run into the mire while it's already over crowded and run others out. I don't need to name names, but I can if you like. It's not exactly a solid reasoning when you can't hold your own group to the same standard.

So next time don't spout "first come, first serve" when I know full well, a week from now, you'll be trying to run someone out of their own camp. It has nothing to do with me, it has to do with your own ignorance and the fact that I know how a majority of those older Fury, ex-Affinity members act. I was around the Mire experiencing when they did it to me several times and I've never seen anyone outside of JP groups do that. And I am positive they are very same members you were experiencing with are the same ones who were meritting then too. So forgive me if I find your words extremely hyprocritical given your present company.

As for the experience, you can call it excellent, I can call it mediocre. What it really was is debateable and probably the very same reason you went on 9 pages without giving any solid numbers. But whatever, I don't need to justify getting better experience, it's your own perogative to waste your time and possibly others, not mine.

 

[Zyndara]

I see what your saying. Personally, when I make a pt, BEFORE I invite a single person I do three things. Make sure I have a bard, a red mage, and the area's for real camps arnt crowded. I don't form the pt then say "HAY, looks like all good camps are taken, lets go fuck over some 66-74 parties, sound good guys?"

You ruining multiple parties exp for your own. But, differance of opinion I guess.

And I'll say it for the final time: we /sea the area, it was pretty empty. We scouted the area and confirmed that, in fact a party told our leader they were leaving when they saw some pf us come in. We weren't wrecking anything for anyone. We went to a relatively empty area specifically to not infringe on other people's exp or gank our own. The party who suggested we leave came in after us. We weren't fucking anyone over. If they can't /sea and scout like we did, that is not our problem. People better learn to do it if they want to get good exp. It's expected of merit parties, how is a lower level party suddenly exempt? How come you're justifying some party coming in after us and telling us to leave when we were there not bothering anyone for over an hour before them. What you are saying makes zero sense. It's not a difference of opinion, it's you not grasping the facts.

 

[Vilurum]

It is also not a safe assumption that because someone opts to party in a reasonable, non-crowded camp in a ToAU spot that they are somehow ignorant that other options exist. Maybe it's just me but I don't speak to others as to where they should camp unless asked, especially in regard to players I am aware have been in this game long enough to know. I find it pretty condescending.

I believe the point of contention in this case is that to the majority of people, Caedarva doesn't really fall under the category of "reasonable" (and it's also relatively rare that it falls under the category of "non-crowded").

Like it or not, imps have stupidly annoying TP moves (which depending on jobs, range from a mild inconvenience to a serious hamper on their damage output) and give relatively low exp per kill, which means it has to be not only non-crowded but practically *empty* in order to qualify as "reasonable" exp, and even then the TP moves are still annoying.

That was the point being made in the first place - that from a purely merit standpoint, there are lots and lots of better options than Caedarva. For someone to stubbornly go "z0mg it's awesome you're nub or incompetent to write it off" even in the face of objective arguments about base exp, mob supply, and mob TP moves ... well, yeah, someone likes that *does* get talked down to, because honestly they come across as kinda thickheaded.

And even factoring in a desire for ISP, sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too. While ideally you could get effective merits *and* get ISP at the same time, sometimes you have to settle for *just* getting effective merits, and pursuing ISP at another time.

In this particular case, yes, you were fine. But if you're gonna try to argue that Caedarva is a good idea *in general*... well, no, not really. Bunch of "if" cases, as I mentioned before. If better ToAU areas are unavailable (likely). If Caedarva is sufficiently empty (quite unlikely). If you really *really* want ISP and getting merits without getting ISP is unacceptable (rare that this will be the case for the whole party). And if your party setup is such that it actually *works* effectively in Caedarva (tossup on likelihood).

Point being? For most people, Caedarva's not a smart choice for merits. It has to pass all those "if" statements to be justifiable after all. And so for most people, if they see someone advocating Caedarva, especially without qualification but just "oh, it's good in general, only problems arise if it's *pickups*" (and pickup vs. static, aside from the presence or absence of specific jobs, is really kinda irrelevant to the problems with Caedarva) like you did ... they maybe, just maybe, might post their disagreement with that recommendation.

Anyway, I'm off for the weekend and may or may not have net access, so may the discussion cheerfully rage on in my absence. Preferably with a healthy dose of logic, common sense, intelligence, and perspective, but this *is* the flameboard, so...

 

[Icewolf]

We weren't wrecking anything for anyone. We went to a relatively empty area specifically to not infringe on other people's exp or gank our own. The party who suggested we leave came in after us. We weren't fucking anyone over.

Are you joking? You cant honestly believe your not going to wreck exp by going there. Cause I'm not believing it for a second, but...you've played for so long, OBVIOUSLY your smart.

Parties in the 66-74 range do /sea "Caedarva Mire", and do you know what they see? Fucking merit parties, then they have to tell their pt the bad news, that their going to a shitty camp, because of you. So for the duration your there, your ruining exp for many, let me know how Im not grasping the facts on that one, oh long time veteran.

 

[Zyndara]

A LS thing? I am guessing, but I am probably right that most of the people in that party are in fact Fury members. The reason I brought it up was because it's hypocritical to say you can lay claim to a camp because you're there first when a lot of your LS members, including some who were in this very same exp party, run into the mire while it's already over crowded and run others out. I don't need to name names, but I can if you like. It's not exactly a solid reasoning when you can't hold your own group to the same standard.

So next time don't spout "first come, first serve" when I know full well, a week from now, you'll be trying to run someone out of their own camp. It has nothing to do with me, it has to do with your own ignorance and the fact that I know how a majority of those older Fury, ex-Affinity members act. I was around the Mire experiencing when they did it to me several times and I've never seen anyone outside of JP groups do that. And I am positive they are very same members you were experiencing with are the same ones who were meritting then too. So forgive me if I find your words extremely hyprocritical given your present company.

As for the experience, you can call it excellent, I can call it mediocre. What it really was is debateable and probably the very same reason you went on 9 pages without giving any solid numbers. But whatever, I don't need to justify getting better experience, it's your own perogative to waste your time and possibly others, not mine.

You are an idiot. You really are. Because every LS is some fucking Borg right? We are one? Give me a goddamned break. You have no right to tell me who I am and how I play, as I have never ever partied with you or near you for any reason but dynamis. You don't know me at all, and I'd venture you don't know jack shit about 3/4 of the people in Fury. I don't "run people out of camps." And neither do the people I was partied with. How dare you pass judgement on me or anyone else like one person speaks for everyone. But you're always right, aren't you, you irritating shrew?

Not that it has anything to do with it, but Fury has some of the best players and best people I've met in this game. So you really should get some tact, though it seems far above anything you're capable of, and shut the hell up about things you have no clue about. I really do not care what you think. And I'll thank you to stay the hell away from me in the future. You are toxic to everything you touch and I want nothing to do with you here or in game.

 

[Zyndara]

Are you joking? You cant honestly believe your not going to wreck exp by going there. Cause I'm not believing it for a second, but...you've played for so long, OBVIOUSLY your smart.

Parties in the 66-74 range do /sea "Caedarva Mire", and do you know what they see? Fucking merit parties, then they have to tell their pt the bad news, that their going to a shitty camp, because of you. So for the duration your there, your ruining exp for many, let me know how Im not grasping the facts on that one, oh long time veteran.

So wait, you're one of the ones lecturing about all the other places people can party but that applies only to level 75s now? Bullshit. That's garbage. I'm not ruining anything when we were partying there w/ one lower level party (who was partying fine together with us over in their own camp - we didn't even take their mobs, imagine that) and a second party, neither of which complained or was disturbed by us. You believe whatever the fuck you want to believe, I'm tired of explaining it. That is not the only camp a level 67-70 party can go to. It isn't even "the best" for them either. How you're not getting that oh long time smartass is beyond me.

 

[Zyndara]

I believe the point of contention in this case is that to the majority of people, Caedarva doesn't really fall under the category of "reasonable" (and it's also relatively rare that it falls under the category of "non-crowded").

Like it or not, imps have stupidly annoying TP moves (which depending on jobs, range from a mild inconvenience to a serious hamper on their damage output) and give relatively low exp per kill, which means it has to be not only non-crowded but practically *empty* in order to qualify as "reasonable" exp, and even then the TP moves are still annoying.

That was the point being made in the first place - that from a purely merit standpoint, there are lots and lots of better options than Caedarva. For someone to stubbornly go "z0mg it's awesome you're nub or incompetent to write it off" even in the face of objective arguments about base exp, mob supply, and mob TP moves ... well, yeah, someone likes that *does* get talked down to, because honestly they come across as kinda thickheaded.

And even factoring in a desire for ISP, sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too. While ideally you could get effective merits *and* get ISP at the same time, sometimes you have to settle for *just* getting effective merits, and pursuing ISP at another time.

In this particular case, yes, you were fine. But if you're gonna try to argue that Caedarva is a good idea *in general*... well, no, not really. Bunch of "if" cases, as I mentioned before. If better ToAU areas are unavailable (likely). If Caedarva is sufficiently empty (quite unlikely). If you really *really* want ISP and getting merits without getting ISP is unacceptable (rare that this will be the case for the whole party). And if your party setup is such that it actually *works* effectively in Caedarva (tossup on likelihood).

Point being? For most people, Caedarva's not a smart choice for merits. It has to pass all those "if" statements to be justifiable after all. And so for most people, if they see someone advocating Caedarva, especially without qualification but just "oh, it's good in general, only problems arise if it's *pickups*" (and pickup vs. static, aside from the presence or absence of specific jobs, is really kinda irrelevant to the problems with Caedarva) like you did ... they maybe, just maybe, might post their disagreement with that recommendation.

Anyway, I'm off for the weekend and may or may not have net access, so may the discussion cheerfully rage on in my absence. Preferably with a healthy dose of logic, common sense, intelligence, and perspective, but this *is* the flameboard, so...

Nothing I've said is illogical. And seeing that many people I know in this game, people well respected and veteran, have merited in the Mire, whether it was their first choice or not, I'll say once again that I really don't care what your or anyone else's opinion is on the exp there. It was an open camp, it was not crowded as opposed to every other ToAU merit camp, and I got 2 merits in a little over an hour. You can call it "thickheaded" or w/e you want, but that exp works just fine for me when the "best" camps are occupied.

 

[jyakotsu]

A LS thing? I am guessing, but I am probably right that most of the people in that party are in fact Fury members. The reason I brought it up was because it's hypocritical to say you can lay claim to a camp because you're there first when a lot of your LS members, including some who were in this very same exp party, run into the mire while it's already over crowded and run others out. I don't need to name names, but I can if you like. It's not exactly a solid reasoning when you can't hold your own group to the same standard.

So next time don't spout "first come, first serve" when I know full well, a week from now, you'll be trying to run someone out of their own camp. It has nothing to do with me, it has to do with your own ignorance and the fact that I know how a majority of those older Fury, ex-Affinity members act. I was around the Mire experiencing when they did it to me several times and I've never seen anyone outside of JP groups do that. And I am positive they are very same members you were experiencing with are the same ones who were meritting then too. So forgive me if I find your words extremely hyprocritical given your present company.

As for the experience, you can call it excellent, I can call it mediocre. What it really was is debateable and probably the very same reason you went on 9 pages without giving any solid numbers. But whatever, I don't need to justify getting better experience, it's your own perogative to waste your time and possibly others, not mine.

I've fucking held my tongue long enough Lavi, but you are a fucking moron. Shut the fuck up and make me a damn sandwich. Dont talk anymore, my linkshell has no relavence(sp) to the topic at hand. Good for you that you happened to know 1-2 people that were in affinity... You know me too probably, awesome. You dont need to spout O HAY IM HOLIER THAN THOUGH BECAUSE I EXP PRE TOAU. Zyn wanted to exp in Mire, so she did. She got there first and there was a misunderstanding on Melfie's part.

You are making the situation worse by spouting stupid random bullshit that has no correlation to anyone or anything in this topic, save trying to bring Fury down as a linkshell. So you know what? Shut the fuck up, because we aint BoL, and we aint Ressurection. Leave our linkshell the hell out of this topic you bitch.

 

[Icewolf]

So wait, you're one of the ones lecturing about all the other places people can party but that applies only to level 75s now? Bullshit. That's garbage. I'm not ruining anything when we were partying there w/ one lower level party (who was partying fine together with us over in their own camp - we didn't even take their mobs, imagine that) and a second party, neither of which complained or was disturbed by us. You believe whatever the fuck you want to believe, I'm tired of explaining it. That is not the only camp a level 67-70 party can go to. It isn't even "the best" for them either. How you're not getting that oh long time smartass is beyond me.

Quote me where I was telling people other places to party. Yes I saw other people suggesting other places, but I can assure you it wasn't me. I believe the mire is the best hands down for 66-74 range. And yeah, I used to think meriting in the mire was nice exp, until I found how much exp you can really get. I know for a fact you cant break 20k/hr in the mire.

You said once again your not ruining exp for anyone, well...read my post again. Maybe you will catch it the second time around.

 

[jyakotsu]

Quote me where I was telling people other places to party. Yes I saw other people suggesting other places, but I can assure you it wasn't me. I believe the mire is the best hands down for 66-74 range. And yeah, I used to think meriting in the mire was nice exp, until I found how much exp you can really get. I know for a fact you cant break 20k/hr in the mire.

You said once again your not ruining exp for anyone, well...read my post again. Maybe you will catch it the second time around.

i've broken 20k/hr quite a few times in the mire dude.