State of the Thief

Acutie

Acutie

Deadly Shadow
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Hey, can someone enlighten little ol me on the current state of thieves in FF. When I left they were pretty much just a TH whore who could do moderate dps(aka nowhere near a monk or rogue or nearly every other DD) while controlling some hate(a tactic that had begun to disappear entirely) and making skill chains for MBs(Which was also put on the bench for straight up WS spamage). And don't tell me they were a great DPS, we all know they weren't and we need to face that. Yeah we got some good spikey hits but that isn't gonna cut it, it didn't then, and I'm assuming it doesn't now.

We get any new tricks or anything to warrant a thief being there?
 
That's all they are good for now, they are just there to make our loots drops. Only 2 pieces of gear a THF ever needs are Thief's Knife and Assassin's Armlets. =P
 
Thieves only seem to be able to muss up hate by not knowing how SATA works after level 30. Moar TH plox.
 
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A well-geared THF can still, and has always been able to, put up respectable damage; it amazes me that this still isn't recognized. Of course a THF's main purpose is for TH, but you're limiting yourself greatly if this is all you ever focus on.
 
Talk to Khajit. If you take nothing else away from the discussion about whether or not Thief is a solid damage-dealer, talk to Khajit.
 
It depends on the thf. mnk/war/etc cannon job isnt as affected by human stupidity. A person whom barely has the brains to play a cannon job properly isn't going to play thf very well, there are people whom only level it for the TH, and as a result the crappy thf are what everyone thinks about. It is somewhat more gear dependent but any job can specialize their gear swaps for their ja.
Unless you personally know a thf is good then generally one should shy away from inviting a thf unfortunately. Maybe if you see them and it look like they have an idea of what they're doing gearwise they can be "safe" to invite.
I'd suggest reading the thread by ladykiki summarizing all the stuff that happened while you were gone. daggers lv 68+ got a buff.

DDwise the crappy ones are shittier than a shitty cannon DD. Cannon DD JA can cover/compensate for a lack of skill while for thf you have to use "skill" to get something out of your JA and the other DD wont always cooperate.
A good thf is a perfectly fine DD. The problem lies in that you could say the same about a cannon DD and they need less iq points to do it right.

I used to have some parses of justice fights with my thf on thf/war or thf/nin etc and I always managed to come in the top 1~3 places out of 6~10 DD including several sam, rng and I cant remember what the rest of the jobs were.(small sample size. only 3~4 fights were ever parsed)
In cannons one has to keep in mind the SA timers before a WS since you cant sneak attack when you have hate. Colibri are extra annoying when it gets to that because just the dot or a triple attack proc alone can rip hate in seconds so trying to SA or SA+ws is extra annoying to me.

I'm theorizing that thf might not get along well with drgs in merit situations since the hate goes all over the place from a drg ripping hate all the time and then jumping it away.
When you are having trouble with making SA+ws land right try to keep more of an eye on your teammate's tp( usually only works with windower as noone does tp announcements anymore). Line yourself based upon the direction that the guy with tp or that has 80~90%+ tp is facing-->mob-->you and you can avoid those nasty last minute hate switches.

Vs mamool ja the old timer on feint was perfectly matched with the respawn on a mamool ja lurker(aka the thf mob that breaks chains) so a good thf would save feint for that single mob. Nowadays you just try to make sure that you remember how long it is until the lurker pops so that the timer is waiting for it.

Vs quadav: There is a merit area in beady that gets about 12~15k an hour (been a while i cant remember the exact exp/hour). They have a TP move called diamond shell that makes all damage not from the front get negated. now you would think that this is a bad thing for thf but it turns out to be good. Why? because it means the DD aren't moving the hell out of the way of trick attack and you never have to worry about em making the mob face a different direction. Sure it's annoying when you do a 0 damage ws
but it saves you from all the times where the DD grabbed hate in a different direction for you, moved away from TA+WS so that you couldn't SA when the timer was up, etc so it's a fair tradeoff. There are elementals that pop on occasion so I would recommend at least 1 war (maybe 2 as I've not tested out this particular theory yet and the timing could be off) with tomahawk merited to stop them from breaking chains.
For dynamis: Nobody is going to believe you can do any damage no matter how often you tank the mobs or die(and will mock you if you even hint at the idea that you're doing some damage) so it's probably better to just save yourself the exp and ceremonially tap the monster while waiting on the steal timer.
for TA: single out a person in your alliance that doesn't move much. only use TA stacked with WS since the monsters dont live very long.
with SA: when a new mob is selected take note of the position of the tank in relation to the monster and try to use the tp right away before another DD gets the time to grab hate from the tank. If you did it right you are now the tank and it really sucks when you did this to a mnk mob and die but fun when you do it to a mnk mob and live.
otherwise: ws unstacked as much as possible.
simply using SA or TA unstacked in dynamis is a waste of time. The monster is going to be moving around too much and it's not too reliable with shifting hate and people still moving around. More trouble than it's worth.

Limbus: a decent amount of piercing mobs in here and if you have the JA "feint" fully merited in the zones where you have to do a bit of traveling you can negate the eva of almost every mob in the zone. It's just a fun area essentially. Pretend you're in a merit pt only you actually get some variety in the mobs. You will be pulling alot here so either acid bolts or a token boomerang if your invo needs room.( sleep bolts would probably work on most of the mobs in here but there should be sleepers already) You wont be the best DD when you have to constantly chainpull at merit speed but the ls still wins so who cares?


Salvage: You're the sac puller. start spamming exp parties if you want to stop from deleveling
you aren't going to be let into the DD pt nor allowed to attack since there's already more than enough DD on the more dangerous mob aka "gears") even if you have a mandau so make sure to bring a ranged to stick TH on from a safe spot. Bhaflau is fun since you wont be naked the whole time and if you're smart you can swap to an unclaimed "rampart pet" ws it to hell and solo whatever is left of it's hp. You also don't have to sac pull as much but if you have to die to prevent the run from slowing down do so.
You also aren't the smartest idea for a DD/tank vs a chariot so gearing you up before one of the "safer" DD isn't going to happen.(ye old excuse/problem of thf gives too much tp applies here as it does vs HNM as well)
Bring RR scoll/RRmeds if you have the invo space since you will have to sac pull. Save a RR item until you find a dusty RR (temp item)since if you die before a sac pull you at least have a mage available to raise you but if you die during an important sac pull and RR wears off at an inconvenient time you're screwed so ensuring you have RR on the important parts is key.
 
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Acutie said:
And don't tell me they were a great DPS, we all know they weren't and we need to face that.
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It depends what other DD you compare them too and what shit you are hitting. If you're talking about merit parties, where mob's defense is not incredibly high, they are some of the best DPS. I'd say same as NINjas.




If you test them on mobs with high def like the Dynamis Xarcapard NMs then no..

PS : The whole first voke SATA is the most retarded damage technique I've ever seen in this game. The second one is skillchain in XP parties, especially with a THF, because they get 100% TP before any other DD and have to sit on their TP..
 
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pchan said:
PS : The whole first voke SATA is the most retarded damage technique I've ever seen in this game. The second one is skillchain in XP parties, especially with a THF, because they get 100% TP before any other DD and have to sit on their TP..
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I totally agree. I don't understand why people insist on doing it in ToAU areas.
 
Also don't forget, almost everything in ToAU has wings and thus gives the 20% dmg bonus for piercing dmg. i.e. colibri.

I myself am a terrible lvl 72 thf and Im not sure why, its either I am too hard on myself or because I was in a static with a NIN and we used SCs. I find myself forgetting to seperate SA and TA but then I haven't been in a "real" party since the static broke... I also need better daggers than a hoplites harpe to go with my blau.

Anyway, ill keep my eye on this thread, seems like already good info flowing.
 
grab an nq/hq misercorde unless you want kreuzet to drive you insane to tide yourself over
And try to start seperating the macros out. SaTa does less damage than SA+ TA thanks to assassin. That job trait is the best thing ever since people cant screw your damage up as easily as they used to in the "good old days"
 
Hey Acute, long time :D

Accomplice and Collaborator are somewhat new JA's that are OK in certain situations. They both deal with absorbing other party members enmity. It has saved the life of some blms that pulled hate from nuking, or whm's that had to spam some curing, and it has helped keep my NPC alive after I TA or TAWS her. Situational, but it can be a lifesaver sometimes.
 
Germ said:
Hey Acute, long time :D

Accomplice and Collaborator are somewhat new JA's that are OK in certain situations. They both deal with absorbing other party members enmity. It has saved the life of some blms that pulled hate from nuking, or whm's that had to spam some curing, and it has helped keep my NPC alive after I TA or TAWS her. Situational, but it can be a lifesaver sometimes.
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I tried to do this with a friend of mine's NPC and it told me I cannot use this ability on pets... >??????????
 
it only works on your npc and i thought that was broken. SE must have ninja fixed that recently.
 
without quoting Khajit, I have to agree with the fact that too many stupid people level jobs and give them bad names. Look at DRG, aside from having had a horrible 2-hr, they were always the most lol'd job. Mainly that was due to a shit-ton of horrible players saying "FF DRGs are always so cool, lets play it on FFXI!". Now they have recovered their rep, and especially now that there's lolPUP.

Anyhow, back on point. In merits, I could generally match or beat most "DD" who are at least moderately geared (NQ Hauby and mostly average gear). And this is on Mamools too, not Colibri. Most of these parses were before the 2-handed weapon updates, but even with that update the gap didn't widen much. Its simply a matter of playing THF well (and to a small degree luck with Sneak Attacks, at least in regards to merit pts).

Also in regards to Sirroco, I sadly can't say I felt the pain most THFs went through. I went out to start camping and getting ToD, he popped within an hour and I got my friends to come out beating the CC and getting my dagger. <.< yuh my THF friends still give me grief about that. I'd like to note I was also like 2 levels under to equip it at the time too >.>
 
Wakmidget1 said:
That's all they are good for now, they are just there to make our loots drops. Only 2 pieces of gear a THF ever needs are Thief's Knife and Assassin's Armlets. =P
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ROFL, what a fucking joke.


Necrosis said:
A well-geared THF can still, and has always been able to, put up respectable damage; it amazes me that this still isn't recognized. Of course a THF's main purpose is for TH, but you're limiting yourself greatly if this is all you ever focus on.
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This.





As for the rest of it, Acute, you know THF is what you make of it. Surround yourself with open-minded folks to begin with, and hopefully some of them understand that cooperation has always made this game go-round...Cooperation has especially always made THF work. It can be said about any combination of jobs, that one works better when the other is solid as well. Assume that everyone is playing to their potential and not playing biased. I understand priority, but not bias. Someone in my Limbus shell recently said THF doesn't need haste...Retarded statement. ANY job is more effective with Haste. Some more than others. THF being one of those. That was the first response I got after asking for haste to overwrite my current slow status that had been on me for the better part of 10 minutes. Yeah, that goes back to having solid teammates and cooperation. THF seldom gets any. If they did, the stigma that they are worthless would essentially be erased. THF isn't that difficult. Other folks literally can make the job seem that way by undermining its applications, however. Given the same, unbiased, buffing that other melee receive, and a little cooperation, THF is as effective and efficient as it's ever been, and yes, we have new tricks. ;)
 
I'm well aware how Assassin works. I haven't been gone that long, and I was also here for the big dagger buff, unless they've done it again since then. My account is long deleted, but I also had a Sirocco and some good gear. I wasn't a n00b. I know we could do damage, I was in plenty merit groups pulling 100+ chains. They were few and far between because everyone had a stick in their ass about who and what they group with. When people straight up put a war or monk or w/e beside a thief and expect the same result, it just isn't going to happen. For me I remember seeing a disturbing amount of people with notes saying they only want like 5 jobs and that's it to merit with. I think BRDorCor/Rdm then 4 Wars or Monks was the "big" thing for a long time and it really really pissed me off.

The big thing I remember, is basically having to talk my way into groups and convince them we could pull our own weight and it really got tiring after awhile.

Come to think of it, there was one other thing that really annoyed me about treasure hunter.

Are there still a bunch of those stupid myths going around about it? Like Mug lowering drop rates. Needing to get the killing shot, etc etc. I'm sure all thieves know the ins and outs of it but that drove me up the fucking wall. Literally for months I was saying Mug doesn't do shit to drop rates and that getting the kill shot means absolutely nothing but still people were believing it.
 
hey. People still dont beleive it after SE actually partially answered how TH worked in an interview. There is even a dynamis puller that thinks hitting a stone and linking causes TH to take effect on all the monsters despite reading the interview.(which explains so many things)
 
Khajit said:
hey. People still dont beleive it after SE actually partially answered how TH worked in an interview. There is even a dynamis puller that thinks hitting a stone and linking causes TH to take effect on all the monsters despite reading the interview.(which explains so many things)
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Interview? I need to see this
 
Just asked for a link to the interview on BG.
But basically what everyone hypothesized from it was that any action done by the thf with a Th higher than what's curently on the monster that generates emnity will permanently change the loot pool until the monster "resets." Resets is generally assumed to mean that whenever you wipe and it goes back to 100% it has reset. You can logout and delete your character after applying TH in theory and the TH will still be there.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Fan_Festival_2007_Live_Blog#Dev_Panel
They make you hunt for it but here's where the initial questions were found.
 
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