Summoner makes me want to quit.

[Kyp]

The job is not broken, it's a fantastic job and is fine the way it is. It's an extremely efficient job in the role it's best at playing. Main healer in low maintenance parties with great buffs. What's so broken about that?

And as I mentioned in my above statement - your bolded text up there is completely wrong. Main healing on summoner is NOT 95% dependant on it's subjob and if you're playing it like that you're a terrible summoner, just as bad as a summoner who melee's with carbuncle the entire battle because they can. Summoner is about 50% reliant on it's main and 50% reliant on it's sub, which all jobs shoud be, as your subjob is HALF the level of your main. Your role in a party is to buff the shit out of them (Like i'm talking 3 lines of buffs here) and cure them when and if they get hit. I don't see how that' 95% white mage right there?

Sabs, but only reading that bolded part you took my last quote out of context.

Someone who designs the job either needs to make it clear that it's intended to be a main healer or fix the broken parts so someone can do the job efficiently and not be entirely dependent on the subjob for 95% of it's experience gained.

The whole quote is saying that then intended design needs to be made clear. I'm not directly saying that it IS broken as it stands. As far as what you did bold, I'm not a summoner but that's how most of them do it when they are forced to main heal. They BP for Damage or buffs kinda split between the two and heal.

 

[Tagrineth]

QFT.

try being a rng tang. mine is 50 atm and i've shot enough mobs to know the difference to realize my attacks are stronger to some andmies and weaker aginst others. im not talking between shotson both im talking over all dmg per a shot in relation to the mob. my lack of understanding about this is what made me stop playing rng in at first.

take the CN for example. you exp off crawlers, exos, flies, and beetles. my dmg was pretty much the same for the crawlers and the exorays. 80's-90's average on both. the flies made our pld think she was doing a horrible job almost cause she lost hate to me alot. it wasnt the case (she's awesome). my dmg never droped below 100 per a hit. and i use element arrows so my DMG is upped a notch from the elemental dmg as well. when we got to beetles my dmg droped to the 70's for each hit. all these numbers are with food active FYI.

now before you tell me to try being a drg let me say that my goon is 41. i was a drg in my static before i switched to rng at 41. and i noticed similer changes in numbers.

not all mobs are on even footing and some jobs are better at taking out certain mobs then others. you wanna kill undead, no better choise then a monk. you wanna take out a flying mob (bat, flys, ect), a RNG will pin it to the sky or a goon will nail it to the wall. you wanna kill an elemental, call your rdm or blm friends. just a few examples.

Yes, and you hit Crabs and Beetles with less force because they have significantly higher defense and you've fallen to a lower tier of PDIF.

God, I wish I could remember where that mob weaknesses chart was.

Next time you're exping off crabs/crawlers/flies, watch the Slashing and Blunt DDs' damage on them - they'll see the exact same reduction given the said crabs/beetles compared to other mobs.

If you really want to test weakness/resistance, by the way, there's actually a fairly easy test you can do.

Find a too weak mob whose level is low enough that you absolutely overwhelm both its VIT and Defense.

Physical damage caps at around 200, period. Absolute cap with a small variance based on the uppermost tier of PDIF. No questions there. Your average damage per hit will be 200.

On a mob that resists your damage type fully - for example, Piercing on a Skeleton - you should do about 100 damage (-50%). On a mob weak to your damage type - for example, piercing on a Mandragora or just about any Flying mob - you should do about 300 damage (+50%).

If I whack a Crab in Valkurm Dunes or La Theine Plateau - the lowest level crabs I can think of at the moment - how much damage do you think I'll do?

Edit: Oh, and you may be a 50 RNG but I'm a 75 DRG, and my damage classification is identical to yours - piercing.

 

[Tagrineth]

Oh, and ontopic:

Why don't you Don't-Wanna-Main-Heal SMN crusade for Melee RDMs too?

 

[Firestreak]

Yeah I realize a lot of that last post was repetitive, but there was no other way to make it. Simply put i'm applying a design persepective to it. Only that they say they intend to keep it out. Sabia pointed that they wouldn't create a cost to keep your avatars out. I'm saying simply that the cost should be balanced with the effectiveness and it's not. A Shadow Cost is best defined in other types of games but it's the same thing.. one of my design books really talks about it in reference to an RTS, it refers to some units costing rare materials for the special abilities like being able to fly over mountains so you have to seek materials before you can produce them. I don't have anything against having a summoner as a main healer if they are willing to do it. I just don't play the game for pure efficiency's sake. I play it to have fun, and I derive that fun from making friends, being social(to a point) and to a much lesser extent making good experience.

I would also agree waiting with seek up is the most boring part of this game, but if I want to party and wait more than about 40 mins I start looking to set something up or go solo for the meager experience I can earn that way.

As far as SMN goes, I could agree with you on the way it currently works, but as you do the quests for it it sounds like it's going to be completely based on summoning. Someone who designs the job either needs to make it clear that it's intended to be a main healer or fix the broken parts so someone can do the job efficiently and not be entirely dependent on the subjob for 95% of it's experience gained.

Well at the same time Ninjas were never intended to tank and yet despite what the designers told us they were supposed to do they wound up becoming just that. The difference is that people clearly saw that's what they were there for and therefore only accept them as such.

All the while, NIN/BLM is the most powerful DD in the game for certain chunks of levels, yet nobody plays NIN/BLM. They're supposed to be "Ninjas" yet the focus isn't Ninjutsu, it's merely a means to tank. NIN/BLM focus is ninjutsu for the purpose of casting as much as possible, and while highly effective, need and design triumphs over Squaresoft intention. You damn well better expect to tank when you seek as ninja. I've got my ninjutsu earring and torque and int gear but when people invite me to exp I assume they want me to tank cause that's the need that Ninjas best furfill.

The question of if SMN is broken or not is a curious one. SMN are already so overpowered at what they're good at, for example killing Wyrms, and HNM. Increasing their avatar power for overall use would be insane. It feels like SMN is the ultimate delayed gratification job. Just to unlock it is time consuming. To get all the avatars takes days and is impossible without other jobs leveled. Then just leveling it requires much difficulty.

Coincidentally, I think a SMN who knows what they're doing can be a fine main healer. I see them fairly well balanced with WHM and RDM and if you read my guide I'll get into why. But to put it shortly WHM vs SMN as healer seems linked with PLD or NIN as your tank. Being that most people prefer NIN in the first place that makes SMN quite competitive. However a SMN can heal for a PLD, they just can't use many BPs if the PLD is soft. A WHM can main heal a ninja, they just will be sitting there with extra MP and nothing to do with it while a SMN would be able to use helpful BPs like stat and acc up or even now magic attack + for the BLM.(before that SMN were mostly for the melee heavy parties)

You get the big payoff in the end of being the most powerful DD in the hardest fights in the game.

THF is another job like that. For many level gaps it falls behind the other melee in damage and their SATA gets usable in subjobs by others at 60+. Then the payoff is they are terrific soloers and big money makers.

Different jobs have different drawbacks and advantages to them. What's useful is documenting and explaining to the general population what you can expect out of each job, so people play the right job, not the job they thought was right the wrong way.

Oh burn Firestreak! I really need to get rank 10 =(

Assuming you're Windurst I could help since I'm currently between semesters.

 

[Kyp]

Most of that is perfectly reasonable, I've even told people that nin/blm seems an awesome combination and gotten the "You're crazy". As far as summoner's power goes I don't know how it is in End-Game activities because I haven't yet moved our shell into end-game activities and I don't wish to join another shell for the purpose.

If it is so powerful in end-game but not prior to that, the costs need to be adjusted to reflect that while they are leveling. Sabia's pretty much made that point though, saying they wouldn't have costs if they wanted them kept out. I don't agree with no costs for the power, but I do think it should be balanced. As for them main healing it's a personal choice of the player. I just don't take well to people telling someone to quit the game because they wanna play how they like it. They're paying as much a fee as you are.. don't invite them if you don't want to but don't tell them to quit.

And to Sabs, sorry i'm from bastok, doubt I could help with windy missions that high, but if I can and i'm not busy i'd be more than willing to help.

*edit* and er with that i'm going to work, i'll look again in about 8 hrs.

 

[Alerith]

The only aspect of FF I find boring is waiting in my mog house with seek up

Ok, quick question. Why would you just sit in your MH with seek up? Do something constructive while your waiting for a party. Half an hour spent farming outside the city is still a half hour more productive than just sitting waiting for someone to say "Get off your ass and join us".

Now on the the main subject at hand:

The role of a summoner can only be defined by the party the player is with. If they need a healer, then a SMN should HELP. Summoner shouldn't have to be a MAIN healer, thats what WHM were designed for. SMN are a support role. They can DD, Heal, and buff, all at the same time.

They are SUMMONers meaning they were designed to call on the avatars to fight. If this costs you MP, well thats how it was designed. Was it the smartest idea? No. But if you can summon an extra addition to the party, there has to be SOME penalty. Beastmasters can only have their pets for a limted time, Ninja have to buy or obtain tools to even use their spells, etc. Every job, every spell, every ability has some sort of drawback.

 

[Tagrineth]

Ok, quick question. Why would you just sit in your MH with seek up? Do something constructive while your waiting for a party. Half an hour spent farming outside the city is still a half hour more productive than just sitting waiting for someone to say "Get off your ass and join us".

Now on the the main subject at hand:

The role of a summoner can only be defined by the party the player is with. If they need a healer, then a SMN should HELP. Summoner shouldn't have to be a MAIN healer, thats what WHM were designed for. SMN are a support role. They can DD, Heal, and buff, all at the same time.

They are SUMMONers meaning they were designed to call on the avatars to fight. If this costs you MP, well thats how it was designed. Was it the smartest idea? No. But if you can summon an extra addition to the party, there has to be SOME penalty. Beastmasters can only have their pets for a limted time, Ninja have to buy or obtain tools to even use their spells, etc. Every job, every spell, every ability has some sort of drawback.

But a NINJA is a NINJA, Ninjas are supposed to be stealthy and not be seen by mobs... right?

 

[Firestreak]

Ok, quick question. Why would you just sit in your MH with seek up? Do something constructive while your waiting for a party. Half an hour spent farming outside the city is still a half hour more productive than just sitting waiting for someone to say "Get off your ass and join us".

I seek in my mog house because I am most likely to get an invite there. If I'm creating a party and I see 2 equally good choices, 1 is in town where I am and another is seeking in some distant location I will invite the guy in town first. If my party ends up never happening I won't feel as guilty for making him come back from doing whatever. Then there's the fact that half the time they have no warp back and inviting them = waiting 5-15 minutes for them to run to a chocobo guy and then 5 more for them to ride to me.

Now on the the main subject at hand:

The role of a summoner can only be defined by the party the player is with. If they need a healer, then a SMN should HELP. Summoner shouldn't have to be a MAIN healer, thats what WHM were designed for. SMN are a support role. They can DD, Heal, and buff, all at the same time.

They are SUMMONers meaning they were designed to call on the avatars to fight. If this costs you MP, well thats how it was designed. Was it the smartest idea? No. But if you can summon an extra addition to the party, there has to be SOME penalty. Beastmasters can only have their pets for a limted time, Ninja have to buy or obtain tools to even use their spells, etc. Every job, every spell, every ability has some sort of drawback.

You cannot be a healer, DD and buffer all at once. You can only do 1 BP per minute and with your avatars out meleeing your MP is gone too fast to do anything, even without throwing cures around.

Jack of all trades, that's the advertisement. That's the stupid bullshit that gets people all excited about SMN and then they play it and they realize it's just not true. Stop telling people that the job is what it was supposed to be. It is what it is. The avatar are junk, BPs aren't worth a party slot alone and if you're not main healing who really gives a damn if you're throwing around back up cures? I don't need a back up curer if I've already spent the party slot getting a WHM. If I got a WHM why invite the SMN? For their insanely great power to summon forth a shitty melee DD that can stay out for only a few minutes before the SMN has to rest? Why not just get a real melee DD? Maybe he doesn't glow with an elemental auro and do awesome rock throwing animations but he'll get the job done better and without MP cost.

 

[Alerith]

Jack of all trades, that's the advertisement. That's the stupid bullshit that gets people all excited about SMN and then they play it and they realize it's just not true. Stop telling people that the job is what it was supposed to be. It is what it is. The avatar are junk, BPs aren't worth a party slot alone and if you're not main healing who really gives a damn if you're throwing around back up cures? I don't need a back up curer if I've already spent the party slot getting a WHM. If I got a WHM why invite the SMN? For their insanely great power to summon forth a shitty melee DD that can stay out for only a few minutes before the SMN has to rest? Why not just get a real melee DD? Maybe he doesn't glow with an elemental auro and do awesome rock throwing animations but he'll get the job done better and without MP cost.

Then why the hell not just call it "White Mage II" or something like that? Because thats what your saying. "Avatars suck, BP suck, healing is all a SMN is good for." That eliminates the purpose of making it a seperate job.

YOU do not like how it was MEANT to be played. Get over it. It was MEANT to be a job where you SUMMON. Hence the name SUMMONER. It is NOT another WHM. Which is EXACTLY how your treating it.

 

[Tagrineth]

Then why the hell not just call it "White Mage II" or something like that? Because thats what your saying. "Avatars suck, BP suck, healing is all a SMN is good for." That eliminates the purpose of making it a seperate job.

YOU do not like how it was MEANT to be played. Get over it. It was MEANT to be a job where you SUMMON. Hence the name SUMMONER. It is NOT another WHM. Which is EXACTLY how your treating it.

So, having a second job that fills the same slot as another is purely redundant?

What about WAR, DRG, DRK, THF, SAM, MNK, RNG? They're all DDs. Why have so many different DD jobs? Let's just eliminate all of them too and consolidate down to one job...

 

[Firestreak]

Then why the hell not just call it "White Mage II" or something like that? Because thats what your saying. "Avatars suck, BP suck, healing is all a SMN is good for." That eliminates the purpose of making it a seperate job.

YOU do not like how it was MEANT to be played. Get over it. It was MEANT to be a job where you SUMMON. Hence the name SUMMONER. It is NOT another WHM. Which is EXACTLY how your treating it.

A SMN is good for main healing with the use of blood pacts.

Notable blood pacts.

Damage absorption:

Earthen Ward
Aerial Armor
Noctoshield

Stat/Acc up

Ecliptic Growl
Ecliptic Howl

Magic attack up

Dream Shroud

A WHM can't do many of the things a SMN can, just as a SMN can't do many of the things a WHM can't. For instance a WHM has to get up from rest whenever a person needs healing. A SMN on the other hand can preemptively put damage absorption BPs over the entire party, and then get a long rest with Clear Mind building up.

WHM on the other hand has Regen... they do the same freaking thing if you think about it. Exceot the BP protects all the other melee as well, which will save you big MP if there's SATA involved.

SATA is normally involved in a Ninja tank party. Which leads me to my next point. The stat/acc up BPs from Fenrir increase a ninja's agility and evasion, lowering the damage the tank takes paying for itself. In addition it increase str, dex, acc of all the melees making your exp increase.

So yes, SMN is only good for exp as a main healer, but that doesn't mean they are WHM-2. It means there are 18 jobs in the game and it's pretty stupid to only consider 1 a healer when SMN's ability to main heal and unability to do anything else effective is glaring you in the face.

 

[Sabia]

So, having a second job that fills the same slot as another is purely redundant?

What about WAR, DRG, DRK, THF, SAM, MNK, RNG? They're all DDs. Why have so many different DD jobs? Let's just eliminate all of them too and consolidate down to one job...

DDs kill mobs, Healers don't.

That's why you can have 4 DDs in a party but not two healers.

If I"m looking for a back up healer I sure as hell ain't going to invite a SMN, I'll invite a Bard, RDM or BLM - why? Because a Bard buffs/debuffs melee/mages insanely and has refresh, a RDM debuffs and has refresh, and a BLM can magic burst, churning out REAL DAMAGE. Those three jobs make summoner a total wasted party slot as a 'back up' healer.

 

[Tagrineth]

DDs kill mobs, Healers don't.

That's why you can have 4 DDs in a party but not two healers.

If I"m looking for a back up healer I sure as hell ain't going to invite a SMN, I'll invite a Bard, RDM or BLM - why? Because a Bard buffs/debuffs melee/mages insanely and has refresh, a RDM debuffs and has refresh, and a BLM can magic burst, churning out REAL DAMAGE. Those three jobs make summoner a total wasted party slot as a 'back up' healer.

I don't mean in the same party...

 

[Aerdrie]

I think Firestreak put it best at the ultimate delayed gratiifcation job. If yuo don't like main healing as a smn just grit your teeth and bear it cause in the end during HNM and such you will get to DD and lots of it.

Personally I feel more comfortable in a party If i am main healing because like many have said that downtime between BPs is just waisted if I am not doing something helpful. There have been a few occasions where we were getting great exp and I was only the back up healer witch allowed me to crank out some nice damage but I still healed but those parties are rare. Normally I am the main healer and as long as the tank isnt takig so much damage i cant keep up, I am happy.

Each party is different and thats where SMN shines is cause our versatility to change depending on what our party needs. SMN is an excellent main healer in the right party and can compete with WHM.

What people tend to forgetis this. There is more to teh game then exping and differnt jobs have differnt roles. SMN has alot of versatility in different situations. In exp SMN are main healers but in many BCs and end game nasty fights we are DD and a damn good one. But in an exp party we pretty much make better main healers then any other role me might be able to play. Just lik ethere are different types of melee there are more then one type of main healer we are not WHM II we are our own style of main healer.

 

[Rinoah]

I personally think one of the main reasons summoner hasn't gotten a job change/edit is because they are half of the healers on the server. 19 jobs i believe and 2! are healers...and then if they remove summoner from the equation...

I personally think the reason summoner has remains a white mage substitute is due to there not being enough healer classes in the game. and should they make it a non-healer class then it will unbalance things drastically.

 

[Mishaela]

Then why the hell not just call it "White Mage II" or something like that? Because thats what your saying. "Avatars suck, BP suck, healing is all a SMN is good for." That eliminates the purpose of making it a seperate job.

YOU do not like how it was MEANT to be played. Get over it. It was MEANT to be a job where you SUMMON. Hence the name SUMMONER. It is NOT another WHM. Which is EXACTLY how your treating it.

You just don't get it. SMN is to a degree, VERY VERY VERY VERY
VERY
VERY
VERY
VERY
VERY VERY BROKEN.
VERY.
VERY. BROKEN.
B R O K E N.

You won't see DRKs or WARs able to attack once per minute. You won't see NINs only able to buff once per minute. You won't see WHMs able to cure only once per minute. You won't see BLMs only able to nuke once per minute. You won't see RNGs do ranged attacks once per minute.

The ONLY job who's even in the remotely same boat as SMN in the "useful vs. not useful depending on JA timer" department is THF, and they get Trick Attack, which means post-60 they still get a 30-second timer on average (making them only half as worse-off than us at worst).

I like Rydia. Yuna is fine. And in FFT they're fun. But this isn't FF4. or FF6. or FFT. Or whatever. It's FFXI. If you think you're be some god of life and death by doing one piddly-crap BP per minute, go nuts, go ahead and lower the bar for SMNs even more, just like so many have, because they think they're some almighty conjurer. The fact is, nomatter how hard you try, the best you'll DoT in an XP party is 1.5k per fight if you get very very very lucky or use L70BP twice in one fight, which, if you do that, you'll be out of MP VERY quickly. You'll more likely parse 800 or so per fight, unless again, you blow all your MP. Most well-equipped DDs can out-DoT that just by sitting around on Auto-Attack, let alone WS/SC.

Sorry, but no, we're not morphing the job into some second healer. We're not defacing SMN or anything of the sort. Yes, avatars SHOULD be useful, and daresay have some point in being left out. But the TRUTH is (read: TRUTH. I'm not saying it. The FFXI programming says it) - avatar melee sucks. Perpetuation costs are high. 9/10 BPs are useless in XP and have an outrageus MP cost to boot.

 

[Alerith]

If it wasn't for that idiodic constant MP drain for JUST HAVING THEM OUT, the job would be much better. A few simple fixes could turn SMN into what is should have been:

Higher Avatar accuracy
Lower BP recast time
Completely remove the MP drain for having them out
Give the avatars (or at least the elementals) permenant enspells


Im not saying all of you are wrong. I understand the job is broken, and that it needs modification. All im saying is that shouldn't HAVE to be a main healer to get parties or exp. Hopefully with upcoming fixes, some of the things above will be addressed.

 

[Liefe]

I find it funny that a lot of these complaints are the same shit I was pissed off about almost 3 years ago. I've maxed out all current beneficial SMN merits (job,MP,others),been 75 well over 2 years, and I've gotten all the stape avatar enhancing gear (minus xarc af2, if that even counts since it doesn't directly benefit blood pact power).


A lot of it has already been said, but not really made concise.

Efficiency=Proficiency

Something is only as useful as it adds to the overall efficiency of your party, alliance, or event. Summoner does not add a level of efficiency even close to other mage jobs in 95% of the scenarios available in the game.

Basically, the bottomline is this..there's nothing a summoner can do that another job can't do better. There's no real point in wasting an exp slot on a SMN when you can get an RDM,WHM,or BLM, DD melee..etc. Nobody wants a bottom of the barrel job. I'm not even gonna lie, I never plan on exping my SMN itself ever again. If it needs merits I'll get them on another job.

Until Square actually gives the job a role it can be efficient at that isn't based on a few select fights, SMN will be gimp. If you would like the SMN current hotfix,however, please get your BLM up to 75.

 

[Mishaela]

Perpetuation cost is stupidly high (especially considering what SE WANTS us to do with avatars), but flat-out free would be unreasonable, and pretty much lead to 6-SMN parties being able to take out any mob in the game with just a few yag drinks/ethers.

 

[Liefe]

Honestly, IMO..the changes that would need to be made to balance summoner won't be what people want to hear. It nerfs some aspects of summoner solo, but allows summoner to have stronger abilities.


Make recasts on avatars 5 minutes.
-Avatars stay out for 10 minutes on a day their element is neutral to, 5 on a day they are weak to, 15 on a day they are strong to.
-Summoners should be able to recover MP in the time the avatar is out.

Day/Weather/Avatar should have a greater effect on powers of avatars.

Avatar blood pacts should each have individual cooldown timers.

Summoning Magic skill should give a bonus to avatar attack/accuracy/magic accuracy.

"Charge up" time for blood pacts to be reduced to 1.5 seconds.

**Make more equipment that enhances avatar damage output.

If they follow that general framework (with some tweaks, perhaps), Summoner has a lot of potential to be a very desired job outside of a couple endgame fights.