Thanks for staying batshit insane, Nintendo.

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Sorry, but each Zelda game isnt totally different from the last. The basic formula is as follows:

Go into dungeon. Fight mini boss. Get new item. Fight dungeon boss. New item to access something else in the world. Repeat.

Now, I love Zelda games and all, but each one isnt worth crapping your pants over. I play Zelda games because they are fun, and the system above does produce an entertaining game. But bringing a series into 3-d and not changing the basic formula does not equal freshness. Same could be argued for final fantasy games, but they are only sequals in the sense that they take place in the FF "universe."

What I'm saying isnt that Nintendo's games are bad, but that they have just as much rehashing their series as other games.

-Ham :shock:
 
ThisIsHamburgler said:
Sorry, but each Zelda game isnt totally different from the last. The basic formula is as follows:

Go into dungeon. Fight mini boss. Get new item. Fight dungeon boss. New item to access something else in the world. Repeat.

Now, I love Zelda games and all, but each one isnt worth crapping your pants over. I play Zelda games because they are fun, and the system above does produce an entertaining game. But bringing a series into 3-d and not changing the basic formula does not equal freshness. Same could be argued for final fantasy games, but they are only sequals in the sense that they take place in the FF "universe."

What I'm saying isnt that Nintendo's games are bad, but that they have just as much rehashing their series as other games.

-Ham :shock:
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I'm not saying they're entirely different with each incarnation. It wouldn't be Zelda without the Dungeon Bosses. Just that every one of them has done something different to the title itself with each new version, where as Final Fantasy hasn't done jack.
 
foolish Skaw.. how exactly is FF alike in any means? ALL THE STORIES ARE DIFFERENT.. about the only thing that's the same is "you are a hero and you defeat a bad guy to save the planet and life D:" omg.. then EVERY RPG IS THE SAME. The characters ARE ALL DIFFERENT. If you think they are the same.. so Cloud is like Zidane? Rinoa is like Rikku? wow.. amazing that you think it's all the same. Music changes in each FF too with the exception of 2 or so tracks. The graphics all changed. The magic used and summons all changed in functionality or atleast appearance.. The Battle systems were similar but ever evolving. New options, new features, new animations. Zelda and Mario have virutally the same battle system and make up for the last 20 years. As well as same characters and same music and virtually the same story. Same protagonists and same antagonists. I don't see how you can call all the FF the same and think that Zelda/Mario are different.. or that Suikoden is different.. or Xenogears/saga.. or so many other games with the same name. Halo I was the same as Halo II zomg!!! If you play an RPG ONLY because of the battle system.. you must not like a LOT of games then because many use a lot of old battle systems. They all just have new variations on how things are done in that battle systems. There are really two general battle systems, Turn Based and Real Time. They go on to being then, control one person and the others are computer controlled or you control all, options. Tack on a few choices of what you can do during the fight, ie, Attack, Defend, Magic, Item, etc. There's really nothing other than those. A first person shooter is a Real Time Single Person Control battle system. A game like Warcraft III is a Real Time Multiperson Control battle system. FF is a Turn Based (atleast the older ones) Multi Person Control system. Zelda is a Real Time Single Person Control system (as is Mario). And I haven't noticed much gameplay change in Zelda AT ALL. For the last 20 years basically you set certain things to be used that you can switch in and out from a menu. The Menus, Battle System, Story (for the most part), Characters, and even Music are virtually the same. And PS2 has say.. 150 titles.. with about 100 of them being good.. not 10. You are confusing PS2 with X-Box, kthxbai.
 
Care to include experiences or magic systems into account? If you count those things in Zelda, not counting these differences is just forgetting your own logic. Thats why ff7 and ff8 are as different as Wind Waker and ocarina of time.

-Ham :shock:
 
Elemmire said:
You are confusing PS2 with X-Box, kthxbai.
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Again, way to prove my point about you. :roll:

Like I said. Characters and Story are not the majority of the games, the battles make up most of every Final Fantasy title, and outside of changing from Turn based to ATB, they're exactly the same. Static character placement, menu layout, exp grind. The characters are entirely interchangable with characters from earlier/future versions, and the story would still make sense.

The two titles from the main franchise that tried something completely different failed compared to the rest(8's magic, junction and GF system, X-2's everything aside from the basic battle setup.)

And I forgot to mention, Metal Gear is on one of the thinest tight wires right now. Kojima not leading the helm can cause the series to suffer catastrophic failure.

Oh, by the way. Totally unrelated to the conversation, just something interesting I read in Fortune Magazine: Did you know that Samsung is a superior company than Sony? They make more profit and revenue than Sony, and have fewer employees and no housename product(ie: trinitron, playstation.)

Yet they produce exactly the same appliances. Go figure. :?
 
Skaw said:
Like I said. Characters and Story are not the majority of the games, the battles make up most of every Final Fantasy title, and outside of changing from Turn based to ATB, they're exactly the same. Static character placement, menu layout, exp grind. The characters are entirely interchangable with characters from earlier/future versions, and the story would still make sense.
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So in Zelda what do you do? Oh yeah... walk up to a guy and swing your sword... same as all the other ones...

But they are unique...

-Ham :roll:
 
Seriously, Skaw.. the battle isn't the only thing that makes it good. Atleast not to me. I take story and character > graphics and battles. But Battles > graphics. so.. Story > Character > Battle > Music > Graphics. I don't see how FF has interchangable characters. At best.. the only one interchangable might be Cid or Wedge and Biggs.. and they aren't really important characters all that much.
 
ThisIsHamburgler said:
So in Zelda what do you do? Oh yeah... walk up to a guy and swing your sword... same as all the other ones...

But they are unique...

-Ham :roll:
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I already gave my examples of the differences in each one(and they were crucial differences, not just character swaps and cut and paste stories.)

If you missed them, go reread.
 
And I could name differences in each FF that would basically pair up with those. Your differences had to do with side scrolling, 3-d, and the changing of places where the stories take place

The only two main Zelda games that can be considered the same are the first, and A Link to the Past. Every other one has done something different with the gameplay. Legend of Zelda II had side-scrolling Dungeons. Ocarina of Time broke into 3-D environments, and Wind Waker wasn't even in Hyrule, as well as changed transportation.
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So lets see... Side scrolling: got me on this one... 3-d environments: ff7 and on... different locations: all ff's... changed transportation: one could argue that ff10 did this since there was no overworld map, even more if you incluse the addition of airships and ferrys and such...

So in short, if each Zelda was fundamentally different for these reasons, then so must be Final fantasy.

-Ham :shock:
 
ThisIsHamburgler said:
And I could name differences in each FF that would basically pair up with those. Your differences had to do with side scrolling, 3-d, and the changing of places where the stories take place

The only two main Zelda games that can be considered the same are the first, and A Link to the Past. Every other one has done something different with the gameplay. Legend of Zelda II had side-scrolling Dungeons. Ocarina of Time broke into 3-D environments, and Wind Waker wasn't even in Hyrule, as well as changed transportation.
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So lets see... Side scrolling: got me on this one... 3-d environments: ff7 and on... different locations: all ff's... changed transportation: one could argue that ff10 did this since there was no overworld map, even more if you incluse the addition of airships and ferrys and such...

So in short, if each Zelda was fundamentally different for these reasons, then so must be Final fantasy.

-Ham :shock:
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You're confusing three dimensional with free roaming.

Both have been free roaming since day one. Final Fantasy still remains freeroaming and only went pseudo 3-D, FF7 and the other PS1 era environments were prerendered, outside of the overworld map. But so far Final Fantasy still hasn't gone into a full free roaming 3-D environment(You can't go anywhere you possible can through jumping, crawling, climbing, etc, unless it's a hardpoint in the environment)

Airships and Ferries(Boats) have been in Final Fantasy since the first as well.
 
Why change free roaming when it's already so good? Fully free 3-D roaming is rather hard to do. Even Zelda wasn't FULLY free 3-D roaming. At best.. I think WoW is the most free 3-D roaming from games I've played. But I will agree with you there, Skaw.. I do wish FF had maps where it was 3-D roaming.
 
I'm not sure thats enough to really make that much of a difference though. Take a 2-d and a 3-d zelda... whats really changed there? or am i missiing something. If I am tell me please.

-Ham :shock:
 
Elemmire said:
Why change free roaming when it's already so good? Fully free 3-D roaming is rather hard to do. Even Zelda wasn't FULLY free 3-D roaming. At best.. I think WoW is the most free 3-D roaming from games I've played. But I will agree with you there, Skaw.. I do wish FF had maps where it was 3-D roaming.
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Eh, EQ was full roaming if you abused spells(Graivty Flux ftw! <3)

But I mean, in Zelda64, if you saw a roof on a house, that you wanted to get ontop of, you could. Even if it held absolutely no significance. Thats what I'm referring to when I mean True Three Dimensional Free Roaming.

ThisIsHamburgler said:
I'm not sure thats enough to really make that much of a difference though. Take a 2-d and a 3-d zelda... whats really changed there? or am i missiing something. If I am tell me please.

-Ham :shock:
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It added more tactics to the same old run up and slash. You can lure an enemy to a ledge and do a jumping slash onto them, thus causing more damage. Sure it wasn't required, but it did add the possibility.

Also it allowed you to explore differently(go around? pfft, go over,) where as Final Fantasy in the same deal of needing to go around things, even insiginificant logs obstructing your path.
 
ah.. ya.. that's always fun. Halo was fun like that atleast XD I jumped on top of roofs in the second one and snuck up on the enemy. And I've never played EQ really x.x just a few times screwing around on my friend's character.
 
Elemmire said:
It's true what Meeze is saying and you all know it. Nintendo continues to make the same games over and over again with no real new characters or story or even music. Zelda hasn't changed much since Nintendo. Same with Mario. And they make hundreds of shitty spin offs like "Mario Party #, Mario Tennis #, Mario Baseball" (the # means a number of coarse representing the sequel or "original")
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Yeah, you have obviously not played any of those spin-offs. If you had, you'd know that they are all incredibly fun to play. That's one thing Nintendo has done right, they've whored mario off to a ton of genres, but they've made excellent games out of them. I can't think of another company with that kind of track record.

Every console has series that are almost exact copies of each other. Every platformer has the same thing as every other platformer. Some of them have a little twist to set them a little apart, but then every other game under that title has the same twist. Every RPG has a ton of elements to it that make it similar to every other RPG. They're defining points of the genre, and not solely a property of nintendo games.

You say Zelda and Mario haven't changed, but they've added new gameplay elements, a brand new dimension they never had before, new characters, how is that not changing? By your example, NO game has ever changed unless there was never a sequal. The games never change unless the game is totally different, which then it's not related to the previous game and therefore excempt from your example.
 
Plus, technically the Zelda's aren't the same, just on the premise that Miyamoto says they aren't sequels, but rather parallel story lines :P

I think only A Link to the Past was actually cannoned by Miyamoto as a true sequel.
 
Do you have fun playing the game? Yes/No

Really that is all there is too the equation. What do I know? I still play Dragon Warrior 4 like it is going out of style.
 
I wanna clear something up.. now I always thought the zelda games weren't linked or sequels or anything. Baja tells me they are linked but not sequels exactly.. Can someone clear this up? x.x (other than Baja XD)
 
I said that the Zelda games are basically all part of a big timeline, with Ocarina of Time as the very first in the series. It's the creation of ganon from ganondorf, whereas the rest of the series ganon is trying/has escaped from the dark realm and is trying to reforge the triforce again. There's references in the text of several of the games about events that happened in other games in the series, hence the timeline. Wind Waker was the last/latest game in the timeline, though, so at the moment, it's the end of the series.

None of them are direct sequals, however, except for maybe Majora's Mask being right after Ocarina of time.
 
well iam going to buy Rev and PS3 and be on my way out.... have fun guys with this "discussion"
 
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