THE Election 2008 Megathread!

Who are you voting for?

  • McCain

    Votes: 31 26.3%
  • Obama

    Votes: 77 65.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 10 8.5%

  • Total voters
    118
  • Poll closed .
leetpresidential.jpg


My presidential hopeful is more leet than yours.

This was an honest to god outcome after one of the regional elections, this actually captured my support for Obama when I first saw it on Yahoo a few months back :)

If that's not proof that Obama is the right choice I don't know what is~
 
Obama has pretty much clinched the nomination at this late stage of the campain. The figures from the news last night from NBC has placed the number around 40 give or take. At least Clinton was fighting till the end but in retrospect it didn't benefit not even herself since even her determination could not save her.
 
<3 the fact that the Democratic Party can't make up it's mind... this has been more fun to watch than any reality TV program to date.

Oh, and apparently Obama's grandad liberated Auschwitz, so I guess he was in the Red Army, huh?

(Protip: Obama, if you're going to lie, make sure it's something that a decent high school student can't catch you on.)
 
Oh, and apparently Obama's grandad liberated Auschwitz, so I guess he was in the Red Army, huh?

(Protip: Obama, if you're going to lie, make sure it's something that a decent high school student can't catch you on.)

Nah, a lie would be more along the lines of saying his grandfather was liberating one of the camps when he wasn't there. This was a simple mistake, confusing one camp's name with another. He soon corrected himself. Doesn't strike me as a huge deal in the grand scheme of themes.

At this rate I'm glad whenanyone still remembers the names of the camps.
 
Obama is an excellent public speaker and that doesn't happen by accident. It takes forethought and practice.

So... he carefully plans his speeches (or, he has speechwriters do it), but he doesn't check on the one thing he's going to say that others are most assuredly going to look up?

Either he's very foolish/inexperienced, or it was a flat-out lie. Neither qualities are something I want in a President.

And before you point to Bush, yes, I *know* he's a horrible public speaker, and it's something I never liked in him. My vote in the 2000 primary was for Alan Keyes.
 
Either he's very foolish/inexperienced, or it was a flat-out lie. Neither qualities are something I want in a President.

Yeah, this was the dealbreaker for you. I have a difficult time believing you'd vote for Obama under any circumstances, so I'll not act too shocked.

But it's since been confirmed that his grandfather's division liberated one of the Buchenwald camps, so you can't chalk it up to a lie.
 
/ja "Provoke" thread

Not that I necessarily agreed with the views presented in the video. But I thought it might put up some nice, wholesome debate.
<- HURR DURR Independent.
 
My vote in the 2000 primary was for Alan Keyes.

You know, I had never heard of that guy until the PBS? debate. I looked him up and thought, "Woah. Why hasn't this guy gotten all the same hype as Obama for being black and running for president when he's done it before?"

Either way, he supports our current foreign policy, so no.
 
/ja "Provoke" thread
Not that I necessarily agreed with the views presented in the video. But I thought it might put up some nice, wholesome debate.
<- HURR DURR Independent.

Wow. Just wow. That has to be the most retarded thing I've ever seen. It's about as out there as it gets. But yeah, he is a marxist. But so are most liberals. They can't help it that they don't know anything about economics.
 
I looked him up and thought, "Woah. Why hasn't this guy gotten all the same hype as Obama for being black and running for president when he's done it before?"

Unlike Obama, he never had a shot at the nomination. Keyes is extreme fringe even for the right-wingers. That's why I always shake my head and ask "Really? REALLY?" when Celvantes mentions voting for him. It's just... difficult to grasp.
 
That's because I'm slightly to the right of Attila the Hun when it comes to politics.

Now, that might cast me in the minds of some as a hate-filled, anti-minority, anti-gay, anti-progressive, southern-bred, gun-and-bible-clinging pro-life backwater hick.

But the truth is... I'm none of these things. As a matter of fact, I could care less about the social agenda of the religious right.

I am however a conservative and I'm frankly scared about the direction this country is moving, and where liberal leaders such as Clinton want to take it. For example, her plan of seizing oil company profits and using them to alleviate economic woes is something that could have come *directly* out of Atlas Shrugged (mind you, the US Government portrayed in that book is an exaggerated charicature of a socialist regime, never ment to be taken seriously).

The fact that the left is even seriously considering messing with free enterprise (specifically the oil and drug industries) scares the ever living hell out of me. As a student of history, I recognize these as the first steps of almost every socialist government that has existed for a respectable length of time. When "haves" are singled out as the cause of problems for the "have nots," bad things always follow.

So I vote for the Alan Keyes' of the world, because that's the closest I'm going to come to finding a Teddy Roosevelt or a Lyndon Johnson (at least in domestic policy, his foreign policy was terrible) in this day and age. We need someone who will come in with the proverbial big stick and clean out the elements of government on both sides who have stood by and watched problems (social security and immigration) build over the course of DECADES and done nothing.

We need someone who will uphold the concept of majority RULE with respect to minority RIGHTS and not the status quo of being so worried about minority rights that we never make a decision one way or another.

Perfect example: social security. To fix the problem (the program going bankrupt due to more people withdrawing from it than contributing), someone is going to have to get screwed. You can either screw the people currently receiving SSI by swapping to some kind of mandated private investment, or you can screw the people currently paying into the program by suspeding future benefits. Or, you can screw our children even more than they already are by moving to a private program *while* paying out current benefits by utilizing deficit spending.

Either way, someone is going to get screwed - but there is no way around it unless we triple the amount of workers currently paying in, or suddenly halve the amount of people drawing out. Obviously, neither is going to happen.

Our government has known about this for years. While I was still in high school the Social Security Administration started forecasting when it would finally collapse. The last estimate I saw was 2027. Yet, no one has the balls to do anything about it. The second someone (like Bush in 04) mentions privatization, AARP shits a brick. Anytime someone talks about suspending benefits to future recipients, AFL-CIO and all their money starts talking.

The end result is a government that keeps campaigning about issues, but never does anything decisive to fix them. Bush the First worried so much about his image that he acquiesed to Democratic fiscal demands thinking he'd get future cooperation (he never did). Bush the Second never adequatly defended himself from the myriad of attacks from his opponents and was never able to marshall real support for the changes he promised.

I don't have much hope for McCain (he catered to the other side and gave them power over judicial approvals that they didn't win in '04), but he's a far cry better than Hillary or Obama, who in my opinion will do to this country what Carter did in the 70s. My only hope is that he chooses a strong persona as Vice President and decides not to run again in 2012.
 
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We need someone who will uphold the concept of majority RULE with respect to minority RIGHTS and not the status quo of being so worried about minority rights that we never make a decision one way or another.

Not sure what you're going for there, but one nice thing about our system of government is that it's designed to protect rights from majority rule. Something like 90% of the country opposed interracial marriage when the courts said "Sorry, but being grossed-out and racist isn't enough reason to keep people apart," and the courts made the right call.

Keyes, though... He's an odious little man. Even if I spotted you the economic positions, his social views are so overwhelmingly religious-right horrible that it's still hard to fathom anyone taking him seriously (except maybe those schmucks at Westboro Baptist Church). The guy disowned his own daughter for coming out as a lesbian. As much as I like to joke about Dick Cheney having cloven hooves and torturing sinners during his off-hours, Cheney was never that low.
 
I don't have much hope for McCain (he catered to the other side and gave them power over judicial approvals that they didn't win in '04), but he's a far cry better than Hillary or Obama, who in my opinion will do to this country what Carter did in the 70s.

I wouldn't say far cry. I'd say just a couple of steps up. Not knowing squat about economics is only a few steps above being a marxist in my book.
 
Not sure what you're going for there, but one nice thing about our system of government is that it's designed to protect rights from majority rule. Something like 90% of the country opposed interracial marriage when the courts said "Sorry, but being grossed-out and racist isn't enough reason to keep people apart," and the courts made the right call.

On the surface, the principles of majority rule and the protection of individual and minority rights would seem contradictory. In fact, however, these principles are twin pillars holding up the very foundation of what we mean by democratic government[/font]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-seri]Majority rule is a means for organizing government and deciding public issues; it is not another road to oppression. Just as no self-appointed group has the right to oppress others, so no majority, even in a democracy, should take away the basic rights and freedoms of a minority group or individual. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-seri]Minorities -- whether as a result of ethnic background, religious belief, geographic location, income level, or simply as the losers in elections or political debate -- enjoy guaranteed basic human rights that no government, and no majority, elected or not, should remove. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-seri]Minorities need to trust that the government will protect their rights and self-identity. Once this is accomplished, such groups can participate in, and contribute to their country's democratic institutions. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-seri]Among the basic human rights that any democratic government must protect are freedom of speech and expression; freedom of religion and belief; due process and equal protection under the law; and freedom to organize, speak out, dissent, and participate fully in the public life of their society. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-seri]Democracies understand that protecting the rights of minorities to uphold cultural identity, social practices, individual consciences, and religious activities is one of their primary tasks. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-seri]Acceptance of ethnic and cultural groups that seem strange if not alien to the majority can represent one of the greatest challenges that any democratic government can face. But democracies recognize that diversity can be an enormous asset. They treat these differences in identity, culture, and values as a challenge that can strengthen and enrich them, not as a threat. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-seri]There can be no single answer to how minority-group differences in views and values are resolved -- only the sure knowledge that only through the democratic process of tolerance, debate, and willingness to compromise can free societies reach agreements that embrace the twin pillars of majority rule and minority rights.[/FONT]

From our own government's webpages. http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/principles/majority.htm

My point is that we have become so oversensitive on the topic of minority rights that majority rule is no longer effective. Think of every major issue on the table for this campaign. Now think back to 2004 and 2000. Were those issues still there? Now think back to 1996 and 1992... how about 1988? Yeah, the majority of those issues were still present. I cite one of the primary reasons for nothing being done as the timidness of our elected officials to enact permanent statutory change due to fear of backlash from one part of the populace or another.

To put it simply, we keep pushing around the dirt instead of sweeping it up.

I'll illustrate this by selecting one of many examples: illegal immigration. Our borders are more or less wide open for virtually anything to come across. Though it did not have the limelight until recently, it has always been a problem for this country.

The problem exists for two reasons. One, illegal immigrants have the capability to come here due to very lax border security on our part. Two, illegal immigrants have the incentive to come here because there is an economic incentive for shady US businesses to hire them. The minimum wage forces an inelastic floor for labor costs, no matter what supply and demand might dictate. If say, the laws of supply and demand dictate that a maid is worth $5.00 an hour, and minimum wage (in my state anyway) dictate that she be paid $7.25 an hour, that employer has a $90 per week per laborer incentive to hire illegal immigrants. The illegal will work for less and for obvious reasons not report the employer for breaking the law.

There are obviously many other dynamics as to why illegals come here (political instability at home, difficulty/cost of becoming a US citizen, etc), but I'm simplifying the issue for the sake of argument.

So, when deciding how to handle the problem (assuming you see thousands of people violating our national sovereignty daily as a problem), an elected official has two sides. One one side there are the illegals themselves. The best estimate I've seen for the population of illegals in this country is currently 12 million. Clearly a minority compared with our 300 million+ national population. Add in to their side anyone who benefits from the continued open-border policy (i.e. employers and relatives). For argument's sake, let's say 60 million.

On the other side, let's put John Q. Taxpayer, who foots the bill for the economic impact these illegals have on America. The Heritage Foundation performed a study in 2007 on what illegal immigration costs the average taxpaying household. This is quite an in-depth study and interesting reading if you're into that sort of thing (http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/sr12.cfm). However, if you're not, the end cost is about $22 thousand per taxpaying household in the course of a year (not person, household).

So now you have 240 million people on one side of the issue and 60 million people on the other side. The concept of majority rule over minority rights would dictate that something must be done, and it must be done to protect the needs of that majority, especially if it is being adversely affected. The concept also states that the rights of the minorities (the illegals) should not be infringed upon either. They should not be persecuted, but by the same token, they cannot be allowed to continue having a negative impact on the majorirty.

This, however, is not happening. Every time any decisive action is comtemplated, it is summarily shot down because the Latin community gets extremely vocal, and no politician has had the balls to stay the course. Illegal immigration has been happening as long as this country has been around, and it's been happening en masse for the last twenty years. Yet, nothing continues to be done about it.

THIS is what I'm talking about when I say the concept of majority rule is being forgotten. In this case and others, the majority is getting screwed over in favor of the minority. The only difference between this and the circumstances that led to the birth of this country is that the economic roles have been switched. Back in 1776, the minority doing the screwing was rich and the majority getting screwed was poor.


Keyes, though... He's an odious little man. Even if I spotted you the economic positions, his social views are so overwhelmingly religious-right horrible that it's still hard to fathom anyone taking him seriously (except maybe those schmucks at Westboro Baptist Church). The guy disowned his own daughter for coming out as a lesbian. As much as I like to joke about Dick Cheney having cloven hooves and torturing sinners during his off-hours, Cheney was never that low.

I honestly didn't know about him disowning his daughter. Like I said, my attraction to his candidacy was his testicular fortitude, especially compared to now-President Bush.
 
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Illegal immigration is one of those issues that doesn't bother me that much, although I have to admit that's most likely because I live in West Virginia and also because one of my parents' best friends started out as an illegal from Mexico. He's the mental picture I get -- hard-working good guy who came here for opportunities he couldn't get back home -- when I hear someone talk about how they're a drain on our resources.

Ask me if I think illegals should become legal, I'll give you a perfunctory "Yeah, sure. There's rules, etc.," but it's never going to be an issue to keep me awake at night. That seems to be the attitude of most of the country, because I don't see the enormous and unavoidable demand to actually round them all up and kick them out of our country -- even when our xenophobia was at its peak after 9-11 -- that gives a politician permission to act on his constituents' demands.

Illegal immigrants, like the poor, are with us always. The United States, for all of its many problems, is still one of the best games in town. You'll never stop illegal immigration without turning the place into a fortress, and it goes against our national character to do that.
 
About freaking time...
 
That seems to be the attitude of most of the country, because I don't see the enormous and unavoidable demand to actually round them all up and kick them out of our country -- even when our xenophobia was at its peak after 9-11 -- that gives a politician permission to act on his constituents' demands.

You are right, it does seem to be the predominant attitude of our country. Not just on the immigration issue, but on EVERYTHING. It's really the heart of what's wrong with this country. We have become a nation of sedentary whinners. Everybody complains and very few are actually willing to make the sacrifices necessary to effect real change. Most have begun just expecting the government to manage everything, and most in government are too concerned with self image and trying to please everybody. Fail. Fail. Fail. Somewhere along the line, "the pursuit of happiness" has been reinterpretted and become "provide happiness" in the minds of most. I'm scared to death of where this country is headed.

As far as the issue of illegal immigration goes, my stance has always been that we either need to legalize them or send them home.
 
The fact that the left is even seriously considering messing with free enterprise (specifically the oil and drug industries) scares the ever living hell out of me. .

***China, Cuba, Canada and others continue to drill off our shores where US companies are not allowed to drill because of Democratic policies!

Yes, that’s right … China and Cuba are actively exploring oil fields 50 miles from Key West, Florida while U.S. companies are barred from working in this area because of U.S. policy . So, instead of allowing the most environmentally responsible companies to operate there and increase our domestic supply, China, who has a dismal environmental record, is preparing to suck our close, lucrative oil reserves dry.

~ Failing to allow drilling in ANWR. We have, as President Bush noted, estimated capacity of a million barrels of oil a day from this source alone -- enough for 27 million gallons of gas and diesel. But Congress won't touch it, fearful of the clout of the environmental lobby. As a result, you pay through the nose at the pump so your representative can raise campaign cash.

~ Refusing to build new refineries. The U.S. hasn't built one since 1976, yet the EPA requires at least 15 unique 'boutique' fuel blends that can be sold in different areas around the nation. This means that U.S. refinery capacity is stretched so tight that even the slightest problem at a refinery causes enormous supply problems and price spikes. Congress has done nothing about this.

~ Turning its back on nuclear power. It's safe and, with advances in nuclear reprocessing technology, waste problems have been minimized. Still, we have just 104 nuclear plants -- the same as a decade ago -- producing just 19% of our total energy. (Many European nations produce 40% or more of their power with nuclear.) Granted, nuclear power plants are expensive -- about $3 billion each. But they produce energy at $1.72/kilowatt-hour vs. $2.37 for coal and $6.35 for natural gas.

~ Raising taxes on energy producers. This is where a basic understanding of economics would help: Higher taxes and needless regulation lead to less production of a commodity. So by proposing 'windfall' and other taxes on energy companies plus tough new rules, Congress only makes our energy situation worse.

Americans who are worried about the direction of their country, including runaway energy and food prices, should keep in mind the upcoming election isn't just about choosing a new president. We'll also pick a new Congress.

...
 
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