the new tank

[Marajade]

Once again, we never claimed RDM could tank well in an exp situation. We claimed we could tank well in an end-game situation that does not involve quick fights, such as normal Limbus runs and Dynamis runs

I'm saying you can't even do that. The only "End-game situation" You could even conceivably tank is stalling for the real tanks to get there, during which time no damage is being delt. And I've seen that fail a good number of times.

 

[Neisan]

Nin/drk yes, would actually need refresh. Pld can get enough through trait/gear to hold them a little longer without it, but all 3 would need the spell anyway.

I don't see how you could begin to consider Quetz 'behind'. If you don't need the Rdm to tank, then you don't need a Rdm tank. Nice alternative if you can't find anything else (like Chainspelling a certain mob in Dynamis if you don't have other options) yes, but not an option you HAVE to explore.

 

[Excim]

So, besides the RDM topic (which has been done to death), anyone else have any good insights as to what job they may transform into the next tank? I seriously think BST has the best shot at it, based on the very little we were able to talk about it.



As for the RDM topic, I am hearing no new arguements. Do we have to rehash all this shit every few months, really?

 

[K. Ishitar]

How is not using Rdm to tank anything a reason Quetz is so far behind other servers(Who cares about other servers, it's not a race)?

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I just prefer Plds and Nins tanking my shit. Rdm isn't a step up from Pld or Nin(Not saying you said it's a step up so don't misquote me saying I said you said that). It's a step down. You're making something take longer when a Pld or Nin can get hate faster and a lot easier.

Saying Chainspell Dispell is a great hate tool is moronic at best.(You didn't say that Uzor, so again, don't misquote me) Oh goody, Rdm can moderately tank one semi hard mob every two hours. Good god man, why aren't we using these tanks more often!?

If you Rdms have such a hard on for tanking then go solo Faust, Zip, Despot and so on. Rdm is nothing more then a good solo. If it was in any sort of party against a high lvl mob, they just can't build hate fast enough to make it worth it. Yes, given time(which as we all know, players just love waiting around for) Rdm COULD tank a mob. But, players are and always will be impatient.

Look back on all other FF games. Rdm wasn't a tank, it was a mix of Whm and Blm with some Melee abilities. That's all. Just because players did some tests with SJs and learned how to solo such things as Faust and such doesn't mean SE will ever make Rdm a tank. You can hope SE will make Rdm a tank all you want and I'll continue to hope SE will give Smns new avatars but as we all know it's just not going to happen.

RDM WILL ALWAYS BE A MAGE JOB, NOTHING MORE.

Again, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

just something that caught my interest, when you're stuck by yourself with no help(after repeated asking from ls,etc.) with some certain event, why not experiment and make the most of your abilities?

It's the same reason why we do solo, mage in your context implies that we are always helpless and need outside help to do such things; granted the nature of FFXI relies on groups to get things done rather than solo, it's just something you'd have to just experience yourself with leveling rdm and trying it that makes us so confident(and egoists I'm one definitely) with handling(sp) nms and such.

No experience on endgame(pretty obvious) but I'm not really suprised because in my humble opinion there is little that Rdm can't do because of it's flexible utility in drawn-out warfare situations, and survive. When you can't get help to make it go the easy the route you do it yourself if possible. Smn as you know does this as well, I'm not quite sure why you look down on us.

Impatience is a player base problem, being able to adapt to different situations is a greater trait than impatience which would just lower effectiveness if it's just a rush-and-get-it-done job; I've been in plenty of situations where we had the right setup plenty of support for stuff like O-hat but it failed due to lack of procedure/instruction with not reverse tanking mages not facing away,etc. where as a team of smart BSTs can tackle the nm and take it down with the hecteyes around them.

Rdm doesn't really need tank buffs since our current role in exp is much more efficient and more beneficial to the group with DD jobs that are able to tank limitedly if they all drop then the rdm can kite the mob and keep it slept until the DD/healers are raised and finish it. The potential is always there, it's just not neccesary in fast paced environments because yes, there are many that do it better and don't/can't play larger roles for the most part such as mainhealing/debuffing/hasting/refresh/etc.

btw for getting hate CS sleep/bind would be better, dispel is strong but the hate generated is not as strong as sleep/bind.

 

[K. Ishitar]

So, besides the RDM topic (which has been done to death), anyone else have any good insights as to what job they may transform into the next tank? I seriously think BST has the best shot at it, based on the very little we were able to talk about it.



As for the RDM topic, I am hearing no new arguements. Do we have to rehash all this shit every few months, really?

well the update would be nice if they added stat bonuses to the pet food and such so when we cure familars after they snarl they could receive some sort of bonus and to an extent stacking stats every time you use reward(up to 3 or so) with increased cures by each reward to it's cap of 3.

raising your own familiars for customizing would be sweet as well, specific pets for each situation would help the possible tank role even better, it'd be even better if BST could use more than one pet at a time (a charmed and a jug, a jug and a raised pet, or 2 raised pets)

 

[Xalioniaf]

well the update would be nice if they added stat bonuses to the pet food and such so when we cure familars after they snarl they could receive some sort of bonus and to an extent stacking stats every time you use reward(up to 3 or so) with increased cures by each reward to it's cap of 3.

raising your own familiars for customizing would be sweet as well, specific pets for each situation would help the possible tank role even better, it'd be even better if BST could use more than one pet at a time (a charmed and a jug, a jug and a raised pet, or 2 raised pets)

Remember when you thought that was what pankration was?

 

[K. Ishitar]

Remember when you thought that was what pankration was?

...you know how sorely disappointed I was as well when it wasn't?

/cry....

I was like NPC 2.0 GO!!!

it should be like that though=/

 

[Neisan]

It's not GD if we don't bring up Rdm every single year. Sometimes multiple times in a year.

I still say it's gonna be SAM. Kind of ironic that SE would use the job that once was the enemy of Nin.... as the enemy of Nin.

 

[Uzor]

How is not using Rdm to tank anything a reason Quetz is so far behind other servers(Who cares about other servers, it's not a race)?

No, you misunderstood me. I said we're far behind other servers because the majority of the player base here refuse to try something new, such as RDM tanking.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I just prefer Plds and Nins tanking my shit. Rdm isn't a step up from Pld or Nin(Not saying you said it's a step up so don't misquote me saying I said you said that). It's a step down. You're making something take longer when a Pld or Nin can get hate faster and a lot easier.

Saying Chainspell Dispell is a great hate tool is moronic at best.(You didn't say that Uzor, so again, don't misquote me) Oh goody, Rdm can moderately tank one semi hard mob every two hours. Good god man, why aren't we using these tanks more often!?

If you Rdms have such a hard on for tanking then go solo Faust, Zip, Despot and so on. Rdm is nothing more then a good solo. If it was in any sort of party against a high lvl mob, they just can't build hate fast enough to make it worth it. Yes, given time(which as we all know, players just love waiting around for) Rdm COULD tank a mob. But, players are and always will be impatient.

You don't need to 2-hour Dispel. And what exactly do you consider "long time to get hate"? A RDM can cap their hate faster then a PLD and NIN can, without using Chainspell. With a RDM tank, the other melees can start meleeing almost instantaneously, and hate will be glued on him from the start. Its neither a step down or a step down. Its an alternative. A good one at that. RDM can build the fastest CE in the entire game, without the use of Chainspell. What's good about CE? The fact that its never reduced, unless you lose a shadow (-20 CE per shadow), or get hit. 20 CE is fast to get back. 20 CE is a total of 0,2% of your total CE once its capped. Once its capped, it is likely to go down. At that point, you start working on your VE, which is reduced by 60/sec. I sent through this earlier, though, how fast it is for a WHM to cap their VE. It is about as easy to do for a RDM, if not easier. This, too, caps at 10000. Thus, you'll have more hate then the PLD and NIN, faster. However, the PLD and NIN will eventually catch up, at which point you'll all have the same hate.

I'm saying you can't even do that. The only "End-game situation" You could even conceivably tank is stalling for the real tanks to get there, during which time no damage is being dealt. And I've seen that fail a good number of times.

No, you can tank it alongside other tanks. The BLM's can nuke and the melees can hit it. They won't take hate from the RDM. The reason you've seen that fail is that the RDM currently stalling it have no idea what to do, most likely have the wrong sub, and little to no understanding about how Enmity works.

RDM is actually (albeit arguably, a PLD with Aegis will beat them...) one of the best tanks for Jailer of Love, believe it or not.

I thing the main issue with everyone's disbelief at RDM tanking, is that the majority don't seem to understand exactly how Enmity works.

 

[Uzor]

To make it clear; BLM spells are mainly Cumulative hate, but also some Volatile hate. Melee hits are cumulative hate.

To simplify, a BLM, WHM etc. can cap Cumulative hate from healing people, and nuking, etc. given enough time. However, they'll have a hard time capping Volatile hate. With a tank that have both capped Cumulative Hate and Volatile Hate, they will always have twice the other mages and melees have. Thus gluing the mob to the tank. A RDM can camp Cumulative Hate fast, meaning he'll have the more (or later on in the fight, the same) cumulative the other mages and melees have. Remember, though, that NIN's and PLD's have the same cumulative hate. However, stacking Volatile hate at this time will make your hate permanently higher then that of the other mages, thus making it almost impossible for them to steal hate, letting them always go all-out. A RDM can cap both fast, making them excellent tanks for long fights.

However, the problem with PLD's (subbing NIN), is that they have an easy time building cumulative hate. Building Volatile Hate, on the other hand, is harder. Flash only gives 1280 Volatile Hate without any modifications, meaning it'll have worn off after roughly 21 seconds. Now, this pose a small problem, as with full haste, you can get the recast time down to 22 sec, which is 1 sec longer than the time it takes for it to wear off. This is why a PLD/NIN needs a heavy Enmity set up to hold hate well, as capping Volatile Hate is much harder to do without Provoke. With +30 Enmity, Flash is increased to 1664 Volatile Enmity, which takes 27 sec to wear of. This means that at the 22 sec mark whe nyo ucan cast the spell again, you have 344 Volatile Enmity left. Naturally, this leads to the PLD having to spend quite a long time in order to cap their Volatile Enmity. Luckily for them, SE gave them some new hate-grabbing tools a few version updates ago, making it easier to tank, as Volatile Enmity was their #1 problem.

 

[Excim]

well the update would be nice if they added stat bonuses to the pet food and such so when we cure familars after they snarl they could receive some sort of bonus and to an extent stacking stats every time you use reward(up to 3 or so) with increased cures by each reward to it's cap of 3.

raising your own familiars for customizing would be sweet as well, specific pets for each situation would help the possible tank role even better, it'd be even better if BST could use more than one pet at a time (a charmed and a jug, a jug and a raised pet, or 2 raised pets)

I like the idea of situational reward food you can make which adjusts your pets attributes for the role you want them to take. Like the food PC's can eat, except with more pronounced abilities. Thing is, this could really break the solo'ing ability of this job as well, couldn't it?

 

[Uzor]

I like the idea of situational reward food you can make which adjusts your pets attributes for the role you want them to take. Like the food PC's can eat, except with more pronounced abilities. Thing is, this could really break the solo'ing ability of this job as well, couldn't it?

I sent in a suggestion to SE a while ago about BST. Give them other foods to use with the "Reward" ability. Foods that grant them different effects, such as "Attack Up", "Defense Up" etc.

 

[Bajaratt]

The big flaw to the "red mage is such an awesome tank" arguments that are going on right now is; if red mage was such an awesome tank, then why isn't it'd use more wide-spread? If it really was so great, why doesn't everyone already use it at least some of the time? I'm not talking about little groups killing stuff, or anecdotes about how one rdm held hate with an iron fist against 10 mnk's using their 2hr; but actual usage. Why aren't there any strategies written up involving RDM tanks for all to see?

You can go on and on about how no one is willing to give RDM a chance and we're all too scared to try new things; but honestly that's just a poor attempt to cover that someone has likely already tried it and decided it wasn't nearly as effective as it seems on paper. There's no way only 4 people in the entirety of the FFXI community figured out that RDM's might be able to tank and they all just happen to be on this server and just didn't tell anyone.

Stop trying to make your already semi-broken job even more broken. You're already indispensable and highly sought after; there's no reason to make your job be the only job worth playing and SE would be retarded to make that happen. The new tank is going to be a job that's not really being used, or at least one whose role will not be a completely opposite shift of it's current role like it would be for RDM.

 

[Excim]

I sent in a suggestion to SE a while ago about BST. Give them other foods to use with the "Reward" ability. Foods that grant them different effects, such as "Attack Up", "Defense Up" etc.

Glad I'm not the only one that thinks this could be hugely beneficial in the right situations. Give a crab with high HP and moderate DEF some more DEF+, but attack down food... and BAM! you've got yourself a tank! There is still the whole enmity issue, but I have high hopes for Snarl and a BST's ability to transfer hate using it.


Would allowing party members the ability to Cure a pet be too much?

 

[Uzor]

The big flaw to the "red mage is such an awesome tank" arguments that are going on right now is; if red mage was such an awesome tank, then why isn't it'd use more wide-spread? If it really was so great, why doesn't everyone already use it at least some of the time? I'm not talking about little groups killing stuff, or anecdotes about how one rdm held hate with an iron fist against 10 mnk's using their 2hr; but actual usage. Why aren't there any strategies written up involving RDM tanks for all to see?

You can go on and on about how no one is willing to give RDM a chance and we're all too scared to try new things; but honestly that's just a poor attempt to cover that someone has likely already tried it and decided it wasn't nearly as effective as it seems on paper. There's no way only 4 people in the entirety of the FFXI community figured out that RDM's might be able to tank and they all just happen to be on this server and just didn't tell anyone.

Stop trying to make your already semi-broken job even more broken. You're already indispensable and highly sought after; there's no reason to make your job be the only job worth playing and SE would be retarded to make that happen. The new tank is going to be a job that's not really being used, or at least one whose role will not be a completely opposite shift of it's current role like it would be for RDM.

A lot of people use it. Go up to Sea while JP's are killing Jailer of Love. A lot of JP shells use RDM's as tanks. On BG, there are 2 huge topics about RDM tanking, and a lot of people there are using RDM's as tanks, and it is widely accepted and tested. Even WHM tanking have been tried out with success at Jormy and Tiamat.

That is why I'm saying the majority of the Quetz population is close-minded and afraid to try new things.

Oh, and btw. I'm not talking about RDM as a new tank. RDM's have had the ability to tank for a long time. It is nowhere near a "new" tank. When it comes to who will be the new tank, I believe either WAR, SAM, MNK or THF will be the new tank. Although it depends on how you look at it, WAR's been able to tank, just not willing.

 

[K. Ishitar]

I like the idea of situational reward food you can make which adjusts your pets attributes for the role you want them to take. Like the food PC's can eat, except with more pronounced abilities. Thing is, this could really break the solo'ing ability of this job as well, couldn't it?

that's correct, the only real 'flaw' with the idea but almost offsets the fact that it'd be cumbersome to pull off since the current pet commands apply to one pet which makes it pretty simple, if Bst was given the ability to control two would you give separate commands for each pet so the commands don't go into each other, or would you have it somewhat like smn as one timer for one pet at a time, either way it'd be cumbersome to pull off solo even if the recast times are short.

Only one pet can ws at a time and one can be controlled at a time with wait time for ordering the second pet. In soloing just a second delay can mean life/death if you screw up, which is why it'd be a bit better for exp pts since you have others assisting you. In exp you could use an raised with a jug, and solo charmed with a jug or raised

That's also why I suggested that you can only have one kind of pet(ie charmed, jug,raised) as one pet and not both be the same type raised wasn't included in that rule but should be considered as well as raised should be stronger than jugs and equal to charmed or possibly greater pending family raised so raised should have that limit as well, however whether raised should have that penalty is pending on how strong they become in comparison to charmed mobs.

Charmed mobs>jugs in stats generally jugs are usually without enhancement 1-2 levels below the bst while a bst can charm up to tough(not recommended, even match is most reliable for control duration) and charm VT>Familiar for half an hour.

Err edit: I only addressed the 2 pet issue but since reward is a ja it applies currently to one pet as well so the cumbersome property applies, manageable with good coordination but difficult. Some foods I agree should give negative penalties pending the mob as a limiting factor at best pending family

ie lets said an aquarian food for crab gives negative penalties but improves a birds performance.

the pets used also affect the 'relationship' between them and the overall effectiveness

pairing predator with prey would have an positive effect for the predator and a negative for the prey while fighting the same mob. Pets of the same family regardless of type recieve bonuses

 

[Myrrh]

Even WHM tanking have been tried out with success at Jormy and Tiamat.

Anyone else extremely confused by this?

 

[Neisan]

So roughly 1/4 of the server is close minded to the Rdm tanking HNMs, and that portion just so happens to understand english. I like how that is sounding.

 

[Bajaratt]

A lot of people use it. Go up to Sea while JP's are killing Jailer of Love. A lot of JP shells use RDM's as tanks. On BG, there are 2 huge topics about RDM tanking, and a lot of people there are using RDM's as tanks, and it is widely accepted and tested. Even WHM tanking have been tried out with success at Jormy and Tiamat.

That is why I'm saying the majority of the Quetz population is close-minded and afraid to try new things.

Oh, and btw. I'm not talking about RDM as a new tank. RDM's have had the ability to tank for a long time. It is nowhere near a "new" tank. When it comes to who will be the new tank, I believe either WAR, SAM, MNK or THF will be the new tank. Although it depends on how you look at it, WAR's been able to tank, just not willing.

It's not nearly as widely known as you seem to think it is. I'd honestly never heard of RDM tanking before this thread; and you'd think if RDM's were even half as good as you're making them out to be that everyone would have already known about it by now.

Hell, why even bother having any tanks other than rdm if they're as good as you're claiming?

 

[Uzor]

It's not nearly as widely known as you seem to think it is. I'd honestly never heard of RDM tanking before this thread; and you'd think if RDM's were even half as good as you're making them out to be that everyone would have already known about it by now.

Hell, why even bother having any tanks other than rdm if they're as good as you're claiming?

Because as I mentioned before, for the RDM to be able to tank, he needs to be skilled and have decent gear, and needs to have an extensive knowledge of how Enmity works, and a lot of practice. Its just simply easier for a PLD and NIN to tank, as its not out of the way for them. They gear up for tanking right when they start lvling the job, RDM's don't. PLD's and NIN's have more practice in that area.

Besides, even if every RDM in existence meet the conditions to tank (mainly only skill-wise and the extensive enmity knowledge), RDM's are generally rarer, and you need RDM's to do the normal RDM duties as well. Because, as is mentioned before, RDM is a mage. However, NIN's were originally ment to be a frontline melee/enfeebling job, but happened to be a great tank as well. RDM is a backline enfeebling/healing/buffer/jack, but happen to be a good tank for end-game as well.