the new tank

[Uzor]

Which to 90% of the userbase these are the only events they participate in. You're never going to cap hate in an experience party. You're never going to have enough time pass or damage dealt to make the degradation argument viable either.

Oh, I know. I've said that RDM can only tank things that take a long time to kill. I've said that three times now I believe Saying they can tank in short fights is just stupid. But then again, I know of a RDM on another server that have tanked Dynamis successfully as RDM/WAR, with Defending Ring etc...

I think Jamal was referring to hate tools. A WHM/RDM has an almost identical enmity arsenal at their disposal (minus convert, but with the addition of Flash and higher tier Curagas). Theoretically, they could also cap and soldify hate in the same way as a RDM... however that doesn't necessarily make them viable tanks.

WHM/NIN can tank rather well actually. However, the downside is that they are mainly only good at getting volatile hate. Bar-ra spells give 80 Volatile Enmity per person it hits. This means 480 hate if it hits 6 people. 0,5 sec cast time, meaning you can cast it every 1,5 sec or so. So that means

480*2-60*3=960-180 (Decay) = 780 Volatile Enmity every 3 sec. Granted, it costs 24 MP to do. To start out, it would take 21 Bar-spells to cap Volatile Enmity for a WHM, assuming no Enmity modifications and no Hate Decay. 21 Bar-spells would, theoretically, take about 31,5 sec. Durign this period, we would have lost 1890 Volatile Enmity. This would only take roughly 2 bar-spells to get back, during which you'd have lost 180 enmity.

So to cap Volatile Enmity on a WHM, you'd need to cast 23 Bar-ra spells, at which point you can easily keep it capped. This have cost you a total of 276 MP, and roughly 34,5 sec. During these 34,5 sec, you can get 103 MP back, assuming the BRD don't have Gjallhorn, and you don't have Sanction, SMN sub or Salvage ring, nor do you have a COR.

So naturally, this will not work out in the long run. The second problem is that WH Mhave no real way of building cumulative hate, other then through Cure spells and Repose, all of which are MP costly.

However, it does show that WHM can build hate quickly for fights that last only a short amount of time, but that they are pretty much useless as tanks in longer fights, assuming they have no enmity modifications. With some enmity modifications, they could possibly overcome their MP issues. However, due to almost only being able to build volatile enmity, RDM, PLD and NIN would have twice their hate later on.

 

[Sharpe]

WHM/NIN can tank rather well actually. However, the downside is that they are mainly only good at getting volatile hate. Bar-ra spells give 80 Volatile Enmity per person it hits. This means 480 hate if it hits 6 people. 0,5 sec cast time, meaning you can cast it every 1,5 sec or so. So that means

480*2-60*3=960-180 (Decay) = 780 Volatile Enmity every 3 sec. Granted, it costs 24 MP to do. To start out, it would take 21 Bar-spells to cap Volatile Enmity for a WHM, assuming no Enmity modifications and no Hate Decay. 21 Bar-spells would, theoretically, take about 31,5 sec. Durign this period, we would have lost 1890 Volatile Enmity. This would only take roughly 2 bar-spells to get back, during which you'd have lost 180 enmity.

So to cap Volatile Enmity on a WHM, you'd need to cast 23 Bar-ra spells, at which point you can easily keep it capped. This have cost you a total of 276 MP, and roughly 34,5 sec. During these 34,5 sec, you can get 103 MP back, assuming the BRD don't have Gjallhorn, and you don't have Sanction, SMN sub or Salvage ring, nor do you have a COR.

So naturally, this will not work out in the long run. The second problem is that WH Mhave no real way of building cumulative hate, other then through Cure spells and Repose, all of which are MP costly.

If they are spamming bar-ra spells none stop how exactly are they going to keep up shadows?

 

[Uzor]

If they are spamming bar-ra spells none stop how exactly are they going to keep up shadows?

Hence why I said purely theoretically. Naturally it will take slightly longer to cap if you also cast Utsusemi.

Additionally, you wouldn't spend the same amount of MP to keep volatile enmity capped once it is capped, as it takes 8 seconds for your enmity from the last cast spells to completely disappear, which actually nets you roughly 27 MP, compared to the 12 it costs to cast it, netting you roughly twice your MP back.

As I said, though, those are things I'm not considering atm. And they don't really matter, either, as both RDM, PLD and NIN will have almost twice your hate later on in the fight, as both Volatile and Cumulative Hate caps at 20,000 total (10,000 each). WHM would have a much harder time capping Cumulative Hate then RDM, PLD and NIN would. However, if you gave them time to cap it through Repose, Cure IV, Curagas etc. they could hold hate just as well as RDM, PLD and NIN, though.

However, it would be much harder, albeit theoretically possible.

 

[Bajaratt]

I wonder if he just simply ignored your weak jabs and focused on real arguments...

RDM does the job as well as any of the other traditional tanks, but of course, the vehement detestation for anything other than a backline RDM precludes them from doing anything else. Perhaps you should take it on face value since IT HAS BEEN DONE. Maybe it was done out of boredom to give the repetitive end game a new twist or maybe it was done because of the lack of viable tanks at the time of pop, but it wouldn't matter, it works. So instead of inviting a new PLD or a NIN every time you need a tank and you're short one, you can always count on a RDM who is stable and reliable if that's the case. Because really, a matter of convenience is all it comes down to.

Yeah, because Skaw's whole argument was that he does HNM's all the time.:crazy:

Where? What endgame linkshell uses a red mage to tank for them?

As has already been stated, RDM would be a poor tank for exp, because it takes them a while to build up hate. If they're subbing war for insta-hate, they're really no better than a PLD; if they're subbing ninja, you have to have someone else hold hate for the 90 seconds it takes them to build up enough to do their new job.

From a theoretical standpoint, it's possible; realistically, it's not.

 

[Excim]

If they're subbing war for insta-hate, they're really no better than a PLD;

:shok:


...except, PLD's can take the hits a bit better. I think you left that part out.

 

[Lavi]

Yeah, because Skaw's whole argument was that he does HNM's all the time.:crazy:

Where? What endgame linkshell uses a red mage to tank for them?

As has already been stated, RDM would be a poor tank for exp, because it takes them a while to build up hate. If they're subbing war for insta-hate, they're really no better than a PLD; if they're subbing ninja, you have to have someone else hold hate for the 90 seconds it takes them to build up enough to do their new job.

From a theoretical standpoint, it's possible; realistically, it's not.

I've seen RDM used to tank Tia, Faf, Khim and Cerb (not positive on Cerb, but if it's done on Khim, Cerb is not be a stretch). It's easy to get RDM leveled and it makes things easier for a LS. Instead of hiring a half dozen tanks, you can use RDM when your short another tank because frequently you will have a shortage of one job and probably not another. As any end game shell of any variety, be it sky or HNM, every time you add another member, it means another dozen or so jobs to gear up. Instead of adding a PLD who probably has WAR, DRK or another job that requires lot of gearing, you can use a preexisting player, in this case a RDM to do the job and you won't have to gear another player. In the case of using a RDM to tank, some shells have well geared RDMs with enough skill and knowledge of the job to do just that.

Re: Exp
Duh. Not many are arguing RDM is a great tank in an experience environment, just that it CAN tank end game mobs. RDM just doesn't have the ability to produce high amounts of hate rather fast and mitigate damage at the same time. Sub WAR and you get provoke, but take rather sizeable damage even with Phalanx and Stoneskin up. Sub NIN for Utsu and mitigate damage completely, but lose out on the provoke required to tank. Sub PLD possibly for defense boosts and hate abilities/flash, but still take far more damage than many other meat tanks. There just isn't any option for RDM to get the best of both worlds in any case. I've said that and so have many others.

The real problem lies when you say it cannot tank in general which is not true at all. It can tank and it has been proven many times. In order to prove the statement wrong, it doesn't have to be shown that it can tank in all scenarios, just the one which is what has been stated many times.

 

[jamal]

The real problem lies when you say it cannot tank in general which is not true at all. It can tank and it has been proven many times. In order to prove the statement wrong, it doesn't have to be shown that it can tank in all scenarios, just the one which is what has been stated many times.

The real problem lies with dipshits like you derailing a thread that has 0 to do with endgame. When people are talking about RDM being unable to tank, they're not talking about specific endgame fights. This has been said 50 times already. No one cares that you 'can' use RDM to tank certain 4 day pop HNMs, that's not the definition of a tank-class job.
There's no statement to prove wrong here, you and Caerloc are just off on some god-awful tangent to prove something wrong that no one gives a shit about in this thread. Please, for the love of god, stop posting these posts that you are acting like are groundbreaking, when it does NOTHING to the intention of the thread at hand.
I already rerailed the thread once from you and Caerloc, now you're derailing it yet again with the exact same posts.

 

[Makelith]

Re: Exp
Duh. Not many are arguing RDM is a great tank in an experience environment, just that it CAN tank end game mobs.

This whole thread has been about a new tank in general. That includes exp situations. I'm pretty sure over the course of this thread that, that has been said ~3-5 times and you are still talking about end-game. We have all seen the crappy youtube videos of rdm soloing random mobs and tanking them decently well.

 

[Tristam Green]

if SE made some adjustments to BSTs scythe rating/weaponskill access, we could go /SAM and just WS every 100TP then Snarl

just...no.

 

[Lavi]

The real problem lies with dipshits like you derailing a thread that has 0 to do with endgame. When people are talking about RDM being unable to tank, they're not talking about specific endgame fights. This has been said 50 times already. No one cares that you 'can' use RDM to tank certain 4 day pop HNMs, that's not the definition of a tank-class job.
There's no statement to prove wrong here, you and Caerloc are just off on some god-awful tangent to prove something wrong that no one gives a shit about in this thread. Please, for the love of god, stop posting these posts that you are acting like are groundbreaking, when it does NOTHING to the intention of the thread at hand.
I already rerailed the thread once from you and Caerloc, now you're derailing it yet again with the exact same posts.

Because your incessant arguing that it wasn't a tank was totally on topic, but way to shift the blame, disphit. I repsonded to your dribble, if you wanted it on topic, don't post your "all knowing" BS and pass it off as god's gospel and not expect anyone to call you on it. Like I said, it takes one instance to prove the point and that was done.

 

[jamal]

Because your incessant arguing that it wasn't a tank was totally on topic, but way to shift the blame, disphit. I repsonded to your dribble, if you wanted it on topic, don't post your "all knowing" BS and pass it off as god's gospel and not expect anyone to call you on it. Like I said, it takes one instance to prove the point and that was done.

Tanking in an experience environment. This thread is "The New Tank". Not the new endgame tank. All replies should be thinking with the OP in mind. I'll laugh that all the way to sweden.
45seconds to 1min in an exp. party and your party is DEAD. Seriously, shut the fuck up. And guess what, I could answer your HNM questions. I've tanked more than you and haven't done one in over a year. WAR / PLD / NIN ALL accumulate hate faster than RDM, which is what Skaw said. Any job properly outfitted can tank an HNM. BRD's tanked Fafnir / Nid for crying out loud. A WHM/RDM 'could' tank an HNM, they have access to the EXACT same spells. Just because you 'can' do it because its been done before doesn't make it a tanking job.
A tanking job is a viable tank THROUGHOUT the gaming process.

My first post. This has nothing talking about my self-glorification and always being right, nor does it say RDM CANNOT be the new tank. It merely says, this isn't an endgame thread.

 

[Lucki]

just...no.

edit: after thinking about it, i realized spampage would be much better... my bad

 

[Arctyrael]

TO: Everyone
FROM: Mod Squad

Subject: RE: Flamebaits

Body:
Please stop. You will get an infraction. Thanks.

Your's truly,
Arc

 

[Tristam Green]

edit: after thinking about it, i realized spampage would be much better... my bad

I can agree to that, so long as you aren't treading on Dark Knight turf

 

[Dayner]

you can lock this thread if everyone keep on flaming Arctyrael

 

[Arctyrael]

Meh, it is a great topic. The controversy is worth keeping it open.

 

[Lucki]

I can agree to that, so long as you aren't treading on Dark Knight turf

i was thinking more along the lines of B+/A- skill, and maybe allowing WAR access to CR... altho, bumping BST up to A+ and sliding DRK down to an F (where they belong).... (trails off muttering)

 

[Tristam Green]

i was thinking more along the lines of B+/A- skill, and maybe allowing WAR access to CR... altho, bumping BST up to A+ and sliding DRK down to an F (where they belong).... (trails off muttering)

lol I have to spread rep around

 

[Excim]

I like the idea of them turning the BST job into a tank. I mean no offense to anyone, but it just seems to me that the job is kind of stuck in limbo, and could really slide to either a DD role or tank role with a few tweaks. Although, my only experiences with BSTs are those that want to join XP parties, and I'm almost certain there are many BSTs out there that don't want their job messed with.


But I'd like to add one more thing... if most of the tanking damage gets deferred to the jug pet, and the pet could survive, wouldn't that kind of break the job since it would almost make a full time healer obsolete?

Another thing I'd like to know: If they haven't taken out the XP modifier for adding a pet to your party, is the decrease, even if it is slight, worth having the pet and BST?

 

[Keryan]

bst pet has no exp penalty now. In my early post I brought up the question If a DD would choose to tank. Most rather do major Damage. Puppet can tank in smaller parties. Not all groups have to have 6 members. SE is pushing to let smaller groups exp with a good return on effort. Blue can also tank. I watched them in lv 64 parties as well as 50. All it took was thf and /thf. We used Sata WS to transfeer hate. the monster died rather fast. Also it would not take much to alter these jobs or sam or monk to tank. ALSO warrior IS a tank job. they can use shields and armor that Pld can. The main difference is that they are sought as DD. I had duo and trioed tanks as warrior. It is just like a mini cannon and if done right Fast exp.