Thf/RNG merits

[Sneakypants]

This is true Mishaela^^ And for every job but thief Id agree that STR is the best overall. You're forgetting though that DEX also helps Weaponskill accuracy "including" the chance of mult hit weaponskills to have criticals.

If you have a huge STR+ gear WS set up, but miss 3/5 of your Rampage swings, you're going to do the same amount or less damage than someone who hit 5/5 ramapage swings but has weaker STR gear.

I don't think anyone is "forgetting" the most rudimentary concepts.

Highest natural DEX
Sea Gorget
Appropriate balance of DEX and STR/Attack (changing equips to benefit the situation)
Crit merits

...


Do you still contend that STR has, as you said earlier, "NO" effect on THF WS?

Keep in mind that nobody said more DEX or more STR is a bad thing. You are the only one to say that STR would actually do nothing for THF though. That's pretty God damned amazing.


Yes we know THF benefits from DEX.
However, (in equal scenarios)
The best THFs will merit STR.
The second best THFs will merit DEX.
The third best THFs will merit CHR...I guess.

There is a benefit to all of those stats for THF depending on how you look at it. STR will give even a career THF the best bang for the buck so to speak. DEX will be the runner up, not to say it's worthless by any means. CHR will be a distant 3rd.

Again, since we are talking about merits, you should consider what adjustments are available to you through equipment and other merits. See the small list of things above? Those few things + STR merits > those few things + DEX merits.


The only time I could see meriting DEX as an option over STR is if you play Elvaan or Galka and have zero plans for ever obtaining any gear that could pass for decent or better. But in that case, THF and FFXI really aren't for you.

 

[Sneakypants]

You're making such an ass out of yourself. Do I really need to quote myself here?

You are dense as hell. You aren't even quoting "yourself". You are quoting the widely known modifiers for DE. YOU didn't say that. We all know the mods. We've covered that. Any THF would do better by supplementing their DE build with STR vs. CHR.

 

[XGrayswanderX]

Um...sorry if I sound dumb, but was quite serious about Luna, cause I can't think of anything else THF can use til the L70s range. Is 2dex/2agi/10chr worse than something like AF pants or Feral Trousers overall?

I don't think that sounds dumb at all. though the additional +'s on Luna Subligar are only active during full moon so... pretty useless there >_> and the base AGI+ on it is 1 less than AF Thf pants.

For instance though, Feral trousers +1 are attack +5. For normal attacks you will see more damage using these. on WS's and SA&TA however stacking the attribute + gear you have will give you better WSs.

 

[Sneakypants]

The only attributes to merit, ever, are STR or INT. Period.

Also, the ONLY THF WS worth stacking monster DEX onto is Shark Bite, because its A)50% moddifier and B) Its only two hits, with the first being for the most damage.

DE? Some DEX, but more STR to balance out the deficiency you stated. DE is a meager 30% modifier on dex (lolCHR) and the hits aren't added damage hits, they're just normal melee hits. Thus, Attack/STR will net the biggest benifit to you over a monster DEX build.

Do Not Merit DEX. Ever. Just dont think about it. Get the Thunder ring instead.

Entire post QFT.


Also, this is put very well. Despite it likely going over your head, I will also quote it for truth:

The goal in parsing/experimenting with ws gear is to find out how much acc you can peel off to replace with str to optimize your output.

 

[XGrayswanderX]

You are dense as hell. You aren't even quoting "yourself". You are quoting the widely known modifiers for DE. YOU didn't say that. We all know the mods. We've covered that. Any THF would do better by supplementing their DE build with STR vs. CHR.

Why don't you scroll back to page 4 of the thread to see where I said that, you tool.

 

[Sneakypants]

Why don't you scroll back to page 4 of the thread to see where I said that, you tool.

DENSE AS HELL. WOW.
ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED OR SOMETHING?
JESUS H.

 

[XGrayswanderX]

We agree on one thing, meriting CHR is pointless.

 

[Khajit]

Um...sorry if I sound dumb, but was quite serious about Luna, cause I can't think of anything else THF can use til the L70s range. Is 2dex/2agi/10chr worse than something like AF pants or Feral Trousers overall?

actually that sounds like one of the only cases where any chr would make a decent difference. thats a 4.6 dmg increase to the dmg rating on a dagger during DE.(disclaimer. I'm gathering that the mods on a ws cause the weapon mainhanded to act as if it has a higher DMG rating from listening to other over the last few months here. If I'm dead wrong let me know)
So chossing the luna subligar vs lets say pal. pants is a question of if you want a 4.6 base dmg increase to the power of your weapon +1 acc or 4 str 2 atk and 4 acc.(factored in 2 dex= 1 acc and 4 str = 2 atk)
Considering that with meat I can hit 80% acc while being able to attain at least a new SH to replace the one I sold off, PCC, pal feet,minuet earring ect for about +21 more accuracy using average gear and not even factoring homam in I'd say claiming to need the dex for extra acc during ws to actually hit 4/5 or 5/5 is complete and utter bullshit.


Despite all this the ONLY time secondary mods are useful for WS is when you get a ridiculous amount of em in one peice comapred to the str you can get. Eg, byakko's haidate, s kote.

 

[Sneakypants]

And that we've both said things pages ago that we feel the other missed.
lol

 

[XGrayswanderX]

And that we've both said things pages ago that we feel the other missed.
lol

Funny how people feel a need to drive home their point again and again right, lol? Look, I'm not trying to be offensive, and I'm not saying you're wrong either. What I "am" saying is that from the parser templates Ive read, DEX has a bigger effect on a THF overall DOT including WS damage.

Yes, Str does effect "all" types of melee damage including WSs, But since almost every THF WS has a Dex modifier in it, the tests ive read have shown a higher output from Thieves stacking DEX. The thieves Ive tested and have seen in these tests mostly stack haste and attack+ gear because theyre realying on that high accuracy and DEX+ they have going for them.

 

[Khajit]

I don't think that sounds dumb at all. though the additional +'s on Luna Subligar are only active during full moon so... pretty useless there >_> and the base AGI+ on it is 1 less than AF Thf pants.

For instance though, Feral trousers +1 are attack +5. For normal attacks you will see more damage using these. on WS's and SA&TA however stacking the attribute + gear you have will give you better WSs.

You cant even get your numbers right hacker. 4 from AF pants minus 2 = uh...1?

 

[XGrayswanderX]

You cant even get your numbers right hacker. 4 from AF pants minus 2 = uh...1?

K well... that was an offhand guess... Allow me to apologize for not knowing the exact stat of every piece of gear in FFXI off hand.

The point was that AF has more AGI than the luna subligar, and it does.

 

[Sneakypants]

Funny how people feel a need to drive home their point again and again right, lol? Look, I'm not trying to be offensive, and I'm not saying you're wrong either. What I "am" saying is that from the parser templates Ive read, DEX has a bigger effect on a THF overall DOT including WS damage.

Yes, Str does effect "all" types of melee damage including WSs, But since almost every THF WS has a Dex modifier in it, the tests ive read have shown a higher output from Thieves stacking DEX. The thieves Ive tested and have seen in these tests mostly stack haste and attack+ gear because theyre realying on that high accuracy and DEX+ they have going for them.

Why do I feel that your "parses" aren't remotely conclusive?
Was the THF pulling?
Was the THF tanking at all?
Was the THF freely able to Trick on other members of the party?
What was the THF eating?
What was the THF fighting?
What level was the THF?
What TP gear?
What WS gear?

Etc.





Again, I see you talking about stacking DEX, but that's sounding a lot more like a strictly equipment discussion. A lot of things can affect the performance of a THF. These things need to be accounted for. I would concede that there are some scenarios where 5 more DEX from merits would shine more. However, I stand firm that there are simply more scenarios that 5 merits to STR will benefit any THF, especially an endgame, career THF.

Merits are different than equipment in the sense that these are attributes not available through purchase or obtaining a RA/EX piece of gear. If any job needs STR when they can get it, it is THF. Rajas is a blessing. Hecatomb is a blessing. Merits are a blessing. THF has access to more than enough DEX equipment. There is a point where you are better off adding STR instead of DEX. If not when you make some equipment decisions, definitely at merit time.

 

[XGrayswanderX]

Well from the parses i saw;

-Fighting Mamool Ja's and Puks
-Thf TA'd on the the Nin tank exclusively
-Brd pulled
-Thf ate Squid sushi+1
-TP build was roughly, swift belt, homam corazza, wal. turban, Rajas, snipers ring, dusk gloves
-WS macro was, full Dragon gear, Warwolf belt, Voyager Sallet, Dex+rings etc

The only reason I parsed this party at all was because there were two thieves in the party, and before beginning to Exp, they were having a discussion about merits and gear for THF just like we were now. It seemed like a worthy parse because one claimed STR, the other DEX.

Other thief;
-Eating squid sushi+
-Same TP build set up
-WS macro however was all hectacomb gear

Maybe it was skill, maybe it was the type of mobs they were fighting, but the THF stacking DEX on their WS's was noticeably out DDing the THF stacking STR gear. After experiencing that, and reading up on THF mofiers, it seemed logical to me that DEX would be the best stat to pump for a THF.

Thieves do have naturally high DEX anyway though, and easy access to DEX+ gear so perhaps there is a cap, which in that case I can see how STR would be better.

 

[XGrayswanderX]

Also Sneaky pants, arent you a Taru Thief? I can see a taru or a mithra reaching the Cap for DEX modification in WSs more easily than other races. Perhaps for you, Str really is the best choice for overall DOT.

 

[Marajade]

Also Sneaky pants, arent you a Taru Thief? I can see a taru or a mithra reaching the Cap for DEX modification in WSs more easily than other races. Perhaps for you, Str really is the best choice for overall DOT.

Seriously, just stop. This is nota new topic, its been shown and figured that meriting STR is a much better idea than meriting DEX. You're about a year late into the discussion.

 

[XGrayswanderX]

Prove it. I rely on first hand evidence more than "Everyone does it wtf are you thinking outside the box?" logic. Cute animation too, glad you saved that one for me.

Ive seen a DEX stacked Thf out parse a STR stacked Thf, show me a parse of a thief using all STR gear beating DEX.

 

[Necrosis]

Prove it. I rely on first hand evidence more than "Everyone does it wtf are you thinking outside the box?" logic. Cute animation too, glad you saved that one for me.

Ive seen a DEX stacked Thf out parse a STR stacked Thf, show me a parse of a thief using all STR gear beating DEX.

STR stacking is retarded, I don't think that's the topic at debate here; similarly, DEX stacking is along the same lines. Your STR is part of your damage whenever you're hitting something, and where you may argue that DEX gives you ~2.5acc and a (negligible) to crit%, if any, STR will always come out the winner.

 

[Sneakypants]

Prove it. I rely on first hand evidence more than "Everyone does it wtf are you thinking outside the box?" logic. Cute animation too, glad you saved that one for me.

Ive seen a DEX stacked Thf out parse a STR stacked Thf, show me a parse of a thief using all STR gear beating DEX.

I play Mithra, btw. I just have a flying Taru sex fetish.

Nobody can show you that parse. ALL STR? Who ever said anything about using ENTIRELY STR? If that's what you've been talking about this whole time, then I agree with you hands down that DEX wins. However, the rest of us have not been talking about that.

I don't think the THFs you've seen are worthy of a real comparison or would offer up a worthy parse. The THF that stacks all DEX is completely misunderstanding attributes and their relationship to a THFs various duties and how to best maximize their performance in said duties. Another stacking all STR is just retarded. Put that fuck in a wheelbarrow and get him the hell outta here.

All I have said is that when it comes specifically to merits, regardless of race, assuming you've addressed your needs with gear, STR merits > all other merits for THF and any melee.

This gets more convoluted with each thing you are saying, when in reality it is very simple. For THF, btw, meriting STR is outside the box. If DEX seems like the natural fit for a THF because of mods and bonuses to SA, wouldn't meriting STR be going against that grain? Yet why would so many tried and true, gritty THFs know of this apparent mystery?

 

[XGrayswanderX]

Saying that, this topic is a year old and you shouldn't even consider meriting DEX is not "thinking outside the box." When I say Dex stacked I mean, that if any of his attributes had the biggest + on it would be have been Dex. Same for the War using more Str gear. If I had a screenshot of both their gear, TP build and WS Id show you "exactly" what they were using.

That's not the point though, the point is configuring Merits to best compliment gear/stats/race. I think you guys mistake my involvement in this matter. All of this negative feedback is coming from Thieves who have already merited STR, and honestly I could care less, I'm no thief, lol. Maybe people are just getting upset because having to remerit another attribute after spending thousands of EXP on STR would be a pain.

What I am interested in is if anyone can give an example like mine, 2 thfs, good gear, one party, to show what comes out on top, STR or DEX. From the party I tested, it was DEX. from the Mods ive read online it would look like Dex too, so, there it is, show me something.