Thf/RNG merits

[Khajit]

Any thf that fails that has full hecatomb vs another thf with full dragon gear is made of fail.

 

[lionsheart]

Originally I was a huge fan of 5/5 str no matter what.

However the more and more I think about it now I tend to lean towards going DEX.

Here's my SA shark bite setup,

As you can see, my +str is actually more than my +dex and that doesn't look good at all. Mithra doesn't have this same problem since i believe you are are sitting at 80ish DEX and you are really lagging in STR. 77 str total definately doesn't cut it






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Here comes my real reason going for 5/5 dex:


Nowadays, if I feel like parsing on my Thf for max output, I pop meat. But the problem that comes with it is accuracy. Mire is fine and I can definately parse 93% with minimal acc, but when it comes to mamools, trolls, colibris I would have a hard time keeping it near 80-85%. Since everyone knows during meeleeing, STR almost does nothing and the inherit +2.5 atk from it is kind of negitable when you are having 600ish attack. ( /nin, red curry + 1 minuet)


On the other hand, 5/5 dex gives you 2.5 ACC + ~.5% crits. In a meat build on tougher camps, you basically have to have around 55-60 acc for it to work , on top of dagger merits.


You may think that 2.5 acc is not that much, but originally for TP I have to use 2X sniper rings to keep my accuracy effective, thus unable to utilize my shinny rajas ring which has incredible stat on it. Now with dex merits + rajas, you can comepletely replace one of the sniper, keep the same acc, AND having the store TP bonus and sublte blow kicks in. Also on top of that you get +1% crits from the combined +10 dex from merits + rajas. IF you are using BD/SK combo you'd understand the pain that I have for sitting in 99% tp 90% of the time and have to wait one more round to reach 100%.....


So now having brutal + rajas just reduces those incidents for like 50%, and now I am a much happier thief. =) I do agree with grays that if you are a Hardcore-Die-Hard-Thief-for-Life thief, I'd go for 5/5 dex. But then again the pre-requisite of it is you have to eat MEAT for its bonus to be worth while. i.e. +15 extra dmg from SA the whole time, making use of that +2.5 extra accuracy.


Otherwise if you are using sushi.... just stick with str merits

 

[Necrosis]

On the other hand, 5/5 dex gives you 2.5 ACC + ~.5% crits. In a meat build on tougher camps, you basically have to have around 55-60 acc for it to work , on top of dagger merits.

Extremely easy to obtain with some homam (namely body).
2.5acc isn't enough to justify getting 5dex merits alone

 

[Sneakypants]

Saying that, this topic is a year old and you shouldn't even consider meriting DEX is not "thinking outside the box." When I say Dex stacked I mean, that if any of his attributes had the biggest + on it would be have been Dex. Same for the War using more Str gear. If I had a screenshot of both their gear, TP build and WS Id show you "exactly" what they were using.

That's not the point though, the point is configuring Merits to best compliment gear/stats/race. I think you guys mistake my involvement in this matter. All of this negative feedback is coming from Thieves who have already merited STR, and honestly I could care less, I'm no thief, lol. Maybe people are just getting upset because having to remerit another attribute after spending thousands of EXP on STR would be a pain.

What I am interested in is if anyone can give an example like mine, 2 thfs, good gear, one party, to show what comes out on top, STR or DEX. From the party I tested, it was DEX. from the Mods ive read online it would look like Dex too, so, there it is, show me something.

WTF?

February 11th, 2007, 10:28 AM




And again you talk about what specifically would come out on top. If it's all or nothing for THF, then it's DEX. Unfortunately that is not the discussion at all.

 

[Sneakypants]

Extremely easy to obtain with some homam (namely body).
2.5acc isn't enough to justify getting 5dex merits alone

Exactly. There is more than enough gear (for any race) to close the book on this debate.

 

[XGrayswanderX]

That comment was directed to this;

Seriously, just stop. This is nota new topic, its been shown and figured that meriting STR is a much better idea than meriting DEX. You're about a year late into the discussion.

What I'm asking about is what the best ratio would be. Ive said a bunch of times that STR effects all damage WS or no, So im not sure as to the confusion of my angle there Sneaky. it just seems strange to me, not meriting the one Attribute that effects all WS dmg, and also a THFs main Job ability which is sneak attack.

 

[lionsheart]

My point is, even when you have 5/5 homan, all the acc gear you could get, you can still be short on acc. I have yet to see a meat eater thf parse around 90% on the tougher camp.

With all the Acc. gear, acc from dex , weapon skill lvl , you are looking at 450 max of pure accuracy total. while with attack food + minuet you are easily sporting 600 attack even with /nin. Comepare to 2.5 attack , 2.5 accuracy seems to be having a larger impact.


Having more base accuracy can allow you to switch for more haste. (like homan hat to turban) Especially dagger has rather low Fstr to cap.

 

[Sneakypants]

The time thing is no big deal, but you said "this topic"...


As for you saying STR affects WS and melee hits, you previously said that STR has no effect on THF WS. Changing your tune is ok, and God knows you're making more sense now than you did when you first jumped in, but at least admit you are changing your tune. The past page or two sounds completely different.


I'm not confused on any angles here. I play THF. The other THFs that have merited STR or generally know what they are talking about agree...Save, Lionsheart, but at least he approaches this with an understanding and constructs logical points in his perspective. The fact that there are a number of people that agree (know) STR is the way to go in regards to merits is not a conspiracy against you or anything like that.


I agree that maybe that does seem a bit strange since DEX affects SA and WS both for THF, yet it doesn't come out on top. But stranger things have happened, yeah? Like a person that doesn't play THF debating with career THFs about what's best for THF. I find that strange.


I'm not trying to insult you, but that's how I respond when I feel insulted. How else should I feel when I am told that perhaps I should do my research first? Or that "Jeez maybe you didn't know but DEX modifies Dancing Edge." ...Yes I have done my research. Yes I find much of this to be utterly ridiculous. At the end of the day, you and your buddies want to merit DEX, I'm sure as hell not trying to stop you. The only reason I even keep going is because I'd hate to see some up and coming THF put any stock into what you are saying and start stacking DEX like mad. I am calling it invalid, so they don't buy into this horseshit and perpetuate it.


Just got out of Dynamis btw. Squid Sushi (DEX/AGI/ACC) utterly failed versus Sis Kebabi (STR/Attack). 500-900 WS with the DEX/AGI/ACC food and 850-1300 with STR/Attack food.

I realize this is food and not merits or gear, but it's a tweak to your final setup like any other tweak. I would have kept eating meat if I could have but only had a couple pieces on me. Sushi gimped me. As would stacking DEX/AGI/ACC via equips/merits/food. STR > DEX merits. Be a THF first. Follow all the rules, and know them well. Then know how to break them, and make those final, outside-the-box tweaks that will catapult you to where you want to be. It's not an all or nothing job. In fact, no job in this game is that static. Not if played to it's best...And that's what the difference between DEX and STR is. Good versus best. The fact that STR is the better choice for other melee jobs as well pretty much makes this a no brainer.

 

[Khajit]

Sneaky. dynamis mobs have shit eva. I can get 90% acc with no food there before I pop my kebabi
edit: in pure atk+ gear

 

[Sneakypants]

My point is, even when you have 5/5 homan, all the acc gear you could get, you can still be short on acc. I have yet to see a meat eater thf parse around 90% on the tougher camp.

With all the Acc. gear, acc from dex , weapon skill lvl , you are looking at 450 max of pure accuracy total. while with attack food + minuet you are easily sporting 600 attack even with /nin. Comepare to 2.5 attack , 2.5 accuracy seems to be having a larger impact.


Having more base accuracy can allow you to switch for more haste. (like homan hat to turban) Especially dagger has rather low Fstr to cap.

I keep my gear relatively static and adjust with food.
Camp calls for sushi to perform most efficiently? I eat sushi.
All the Acc gear in the world isn't good enough sometimes.

The beauty of eating meat is that you will make up for the ~10% accuracy discrepancy via damage of melee and WS hits.

If you are really used to eating sushi, a few more whiffs might get under your skin. I know people that refuse to eat anything else because they can't stand missing hits. Depends what your are striving for on a parse though. Acc or damage. I hate whiffing, but I can deal with it when it means more damage ultimately. When meat yields poor results due to too much whiffing, you just switch to sushi. Problem solved. And that is what's so great about sushi.

 

[Sneakypants]

Sneaky. dynmis mobs have shit eva. you can get 90% acc with no food on like mire.

Appropriate food for the situation was meat. I know this. You know this.

It was used to make a point. That's all.

 

[XGrayswanderX]

I haven't changed my tune. I still say the #'s dont add up. and the parser tests ive done have shown DEX to be more advantageous. Until someone posts something that makes me think otherwise, Im sticking to that.

Str is, without a doubt the best stat to merit for all other melee jobs. However, the Thieves Ive tested have shown Dex puts out more dmg, so in short, I want to someone with Str merits on a well equipped thf to prove that wrong.

 

[Marajade]

My point is, even when you have 5/5 homan, all the acc gear you could get, you can still be short on acc. I have yet to see a meat eater thf parse around 90% on the tougher camp.

You must be kidding.

 

[Sneakypants]

I haven't changed my tune. I still say the #'s dont add up. and the parser tests ive done have shown DEX to be more advantageous. Until someone posts something that makes me think otherwise, Im sticking to that.

Str is, without a doubt the best stat to merit for all other melee jobs. However, the Thieves Ive tested have shown Dex puts out more dmg, so in short, I want to someone with Str merits on a well equipped thf to prove that wrong.

You've also said that it was a THF that stacked DEX versus one that stacked STR. All the THFs that said STR is a better merit, also said stacking STR on THF is dumb. Did you miss that? Have a different point? I'm not sure why you keep using that example. A most surely crappy parse of a STR stacked THF versus a DEX stacked THF. The DEX THF will win, but you already know that. This is NOT a "test" as you say. This is confirming the inherent traits of a the THF job.

I'll go so far as to say meriting DEX probably is best for the THFs that are average at best. They really might get more out of it. If they learn how to play their jobs, they might actually feel like getting 360k more XP to change to STR though. Good versus Best.

 

[Necrosis]

My point is, even when you have 5/5 homan, all the acc gear you could get, you can still be short on acc. I have yet to see a meat eater thf parse around 90% on the tougher camp.

That's true, i parsed around lower 8x% in thickets, but the fact of the matter is this:
Meat THF(with optimal acc) > Sushi THF(with optimal attack)

 

[lionsheart]

You must be kidding.

check this thread out, got a couple of useful parser in it from archain the legend

http://ffxi.killvoid.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=147263

On trolls he still cant get 90%, hell not even 85% with meat.

 

[XGrayswanderX]

You've also said that it was a THF that stacked DEX versus one that stacked STR. All the THFs that said STR is a better merit, also said stacking STR on THF is dumb. Did you miss that? Have a different point? I'm not sure why you keep using that example. A most surely crappy parse of a STR stacked THF versus a DEX stacked THF. The DEX THF will win, but you already know that. This is NOT a "test" as you say. This is confirming the inherent traits of a the THF job.

I'll go so far as to say meriting DEX probably is best for the THFs that are average at best. They really might get more out of it. If they learn how to play their jobs, they might actually feel like getting 360k more XP to change to STR though. Good versus Best.

Well if that's the case, then yes I do have a different point and that is; Given the case we are dealing with an elite thief, (this kind of discussion wouldnt even arise for a thief that is just scrambling for any Str or Dex gear they can get) Given that case, it seems to me with all of the Str+ gear that is available though N hectacomb abjs, a thief with access to any item they want can easily get more total Str than they can Dex+ anyway. The impact of 5 Str merits is negligible when compared N body using 1 slot for Str+12 acc+10, and it also must be compensated with some Dex+ equipment for maximum damage. I'm curious as to the ratio of Str/Dex you find to work best.

And what about that mystery factor of Charisma in Dancing Edge? Why is it a 40% modification as opposed to the 30% Dex. And if Str is so much better for a thief, why throw in such a red herring for what the best approach is?

 

[Sneakypants]

Speaking of Archain the legend, he has capped STR merits.

 

[lionsheart]

That's true, i parsed around lower 8x% in thickets, but the fact of the matter is this:
Meat THF(with optimal acc) > Sushi THF(with optimal attack)

yup yup, cant agree with that more. 85% acc. will be enough to trump any sushi eaters.

@ Grays

That's my situation atm. I cant get much more dex into my gear without sacrificing much excpt for 1 ear piece. Commander's cape shouldn't replace amemti +1 so that's ruled out. Gorget gives better result than spike necklace. That leaves me with more +STR than +DEX which isn't too hot for me.

 

[lionsheart]

Speaking of Archain the legend, he has capped STR merits.

Mandau user doesn't count since it has 60% STR mod. Though I believe he has STR merits capped before mandau but again he has Dark and Drg lvled. =)