This is perhaps the last chance for "Discussion"

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No one is arguing that the windower is not 3rd party illegal software so I'm not sure why people keep bringing it up. If the windower allowed you to somehow win a fight more easily than you are supposed to be able to do within the confines of the game then yes, it would be worth mentioning in this topic. By saying that windower users should be banned along with fleetool hackers, you're saying the equivalent that jaywalkers should get the death penalty along with murderers. It's just silly and irrelevant. Keep the issue to the topic at hand please.
 
actually, if you go by the definition of cheat:

cheat Audio pronunciation of "cheat" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (cht)
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats
v. tr.

1. To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
2. To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
3. To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
4. To elude; escape: cheat death.


v. intr.

1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
3. Informal. To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
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by utilizing windower you are doing exactly as what I bolded. You are deliberately violating the rules, in this case the ToS. With that definition, windower is involved in the topic at hand. Yes, Pere was talking about flee tools, but he did state the following: "I would like an open, honest discussion about the use of these cheating tools." If you follow the definition of cheat, then Windower has every right to be discussed just as much as flee tools or claim bots, even if it doesn't strictly harm the game.
 
Rappa said:
No one is arguing that the windower is not 3rd party illegal software so I'm not sure why people keep bringing it up. If the windower allowed you to somehow win a fight more easily than you are supposed to be able to do within the confines of the game then yes, it would be worth mentioning in this topic. By saying that windower users should be banned along with fleetool hackers, you're saying the equivalent that jaywalkers should get the death penalty along with murderers. It's just silly and irrelevant. Keep the issue to the topic at hand please.
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Mostly correct. This topic is best served by sticking to the issue of fleetools and fleetool-using groups on our server. Discussion of windower and kirin only serves to skirt the true intent of the topic. The issue will not simply go away if there is only mere lipservice to the topic and the surface isn't broken. Windower is a nice discussion, but it's not getting people suspended faster than they can be released.

Even more specifically and more useful would be an open discussion as to what people plan to DO about these relevations. That is, I know what I will be doing, and hopefully I have made that clear by now. However, clearly to continue on the path we are is not at all preferred.
 
Peregrine said:
I'm not going to try something a little different here, because flaming isn't resolving this issue. If a mod or admin sees this and wishes to put it on the flameboard, they are more than welcome to. However, I won't be doing any flaming or insulting. I simply want this finished and resolved. No one takes flames seriously, and this needs to be taken seriously.
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1000% better than your flameboard post.

There are already FFXI servers (Hades for one) where you cannot play in the endgame without using a full arsenal of hacks and bots. This isn't one of them. Most of the HNMs that require claiming are being claimed fairly. Maybe that puts us behind other servers as some are claiming. If so, I'd argue that this is a good thing.

Nasya (the Kaizen leader) already put our LS views on hacking on the flameboard as did Prophecy. Maybe some of the other major LS officers/leaders who visit here (Jsoft, WYS, Maseki, Villarel, Dresdan, Anaeran, and anyone I've missed) could post their LS's policy on this sort of thing and whether their Shells find it acceptable or not. I'd still like to believe (naive as it may be) that the majority of players would prefer that the game was played fairly

I just don't see any point in playing in an endgame where you have to cheat to compete...
 
I am being told by a few users that Outerheaven is on QCDN post restriction due to recent events. That somewhat understandable move would explain their silence on both the flame board and this topic. Once the dust settles from these suspensions, which I think are still very important for the public to hear about, maybe they will come back to the table and...renegotiate is a bad term for it, but let's just say renegotiate.
 
The best way to stop cheats is to have end game LS leaders that strictly disown members that cheat in any way shape or form.

Trying to build an army of tattle tales like we're in elementary school is not gonna get enough people banned to stop cheaters.

But if people realize they can't succeed in this game at the end game level with cheats because LS's will not invite them, that may be the best route. It won't eliminate cheaters but it will eliminate the most effective ones and the ones that do the most damage (Lv75s).
 
Over time shells convince themselves of the same things you've been hearing. That everyone does it. That it's what you have to do to stay competitive. That it's the same as windower. That it doesn't affect anyone else. All it takes is for one shell to pull a Bay of Pigs phenomenon to throw a wrench into the idea of a universal pact to disown the one player who seems to always get fafnir claim for you. It has a 99% chance of failing, not only neutrally, but in the opposite way. The "great" claimer gets congratulated, not questioned. The great puller...we have seen gets the same congratulations.
 
by saying windower is a "cheat" you are basically saying that everyone one else that uses it is doing just that....and put us on the same level of those that use hack tools just as flee tools. apples and oranges...apples and oranges.
going to jail for contempt of court vs going to jail for murder....they cannot be compared to one another
 
Peregrine said:
Over time shells convince themselves of the same things you've been hearing. That everyone does it. That it's what you have to do to stay competitive. That it's the same as windower. That it doesn't affect anyone else. All it takes is for one shell to pull a Bay of Pigs phenomenon to throw a wrench into the idea of a universal pact to disown the one player who seems to always get fafnir claim for you. It has a 99% chance of failing, not only neutrally, but in the opposite way. The "great" claimer gets congratulated, not questioned. The great puller...we have seen gets the same congratulations.
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First I do agree with your first point. However I don't think you can judge if someone cheats based on how well they claim. Even through the random delay timer there is a level of skill involved in claiming still and its something which can only be improved upon by practice. However saying that, even the best claimers will lose half the time or more simply because there is also a level of luck involved even if your really fast. Bots cannot eliminate the claim delay because that random timer is server side and to get that information can land you with the FBI and 15yrs in jail.
 
masterorion said:
by saying windower is a "cheat" you are basically saying that everyone one else that uses it is doing just that....and put us on the same level of those that use hack tools just as flee tools. apples and oranges...apples and oranges.
going to jail for contempt of court vs going to jail for murder....they cannot be compared to one another
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True, its not on the same level as the others, but it is still technically by definition a cheat. If you want rid of all cheats in the game, then that HAS to include windower. Saying all cheats and not including windower does not mean ALL cheats.

And as I have said before, yes, by definition I am calling myself a cheater.
 
I am not convinced that voke bots have not upgraded. I am not convinced that they aren't on quetza. Even if they aren't, they soon will be. There is already talk of quetza shells purchasing copies of the new generation bots. I reported a link to warp/claim bot pack and the paypal account selling it the other day, and I was met within 3 minutes by a senior GM. He talked about how their HQ couldn't see the websites because the sellers had SE on IP ban and that they had to send people to libraries to check the links out.

Unfortunately you will probably never be able to tell the claim bots from good players. That is why it is important to not blindly congratulate performance, because now more than ever that performance may be far from legitimate. Ultimately it's up to shells to not be fooled by success.
 
Graydaze, the windower is marijuana. Fleetool is narcotics. To criticize going after one and not the other makes little sense. One is being gone after, and that is the success. Fleetool does so much more damage, so it only makes sense to pick the battles that A. can be won and B. that need fighting more.
 
Peregrine said:
Graydaze, the windower is marijuana. Fleetool is narcotics. To criticize going after one and not the other makes little sense. One is being gone after, and that is the success. Fleetool does so much more damage, so it only makes sense to pick the battles that A. can be won and B. that need fighting more.
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And ne'er a more true word was spoken on the issue of windower vs the other 3rd party programs...

On a personal note i think the narcing is a tad overboard but i like the ideal it represents. Moral convictions ftw.
 
I understand that Peregrine, but if you want to be rid of ALL game cheats, you have to include windower. Just like saying if you want to be rid of all narcotics, you have to include marijuana. If you want to exclude windower than say something other than all cheats. So, just because its a matter of convenience to say all does not make it right.
 
The windower only provides an avenue for cheating, it is not a direct action that results in cheating. When you choose to activate something aside from the windower to give yourself an advantage you've made the decision to cheat. When you open the windower you've made the decision SE is fucking retarded for not providing that miniscule effort to make the game multi-tasker friendly.
 
I would include windower if I could. I can't, so this is all I can do right now. I am happy enough that there is a certified "or what" tacked onto the statement "Stop cheating." As we saw, my initial claims were largely laughed at because no one thought it was true. As of now, very few people are laughing. They thought you can't report remotely. They thought you had to see it. They thought it had no teeth. Now it's taken 3 suspensions to get the laughing to stop, and that's 3 too many, but it's important to recognize that this isn't just a roundtable discussion on merits and points. This has real server implications. If the cheating doesn't stop, it is clear that there will be consequences. In my opinion that is a good thing. To others, naturally it's not good.
 
I'm not sure what you want us to say Graydaze. If S-E came up with some way to prevent EVERYTHING from interacting with the game, windower included, that would be acceptable to me and I'm sure most other people. That isn't the point. As it is, no one can prove another player is using windower so there isn't much point GM calling about it. However, when someone is running around like a hyena that's pretty easy to report.
 
GM's cant detect Windower anyway, so unless you have an admission of guilt in your chat log then you get them suspended.
 
I'd be cool with not being able to use windower as well. I'm just saying don't say all cheats unless you intend to include windower. Just because its a matter of convenience does not mean it isn't a cheat by definition. Its not much hard to type four letters and say most than it is three to say all.
 
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