This is perhaps the last chance for "Discussion"

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Like I said, I fight the battles that can be won and need fighting the most. I've had one AH bot and one Guild Bot banned. Those are 100% surefire easy calls. And this makes 3 suspensions for fleetooling when I've only called it in twice. I am not one of those players who has called 50 GMs only to be ignored every time, because I know that warpers and scanners are harder to prove, and that Dat editers and claimers previously impossible. If I do see a warper and scanner, I'm going to do my homework before calling the GM. I will tell them what to look for. I will tell them how they're cheating instead of assuming it's obvious to the GM. I will tell them everything and more than they need to know to make a judgment.

This GM that caught Algarius and Silversurfer was twice as hard to convince as the first because it was a public zone and not private, but he was still convinced. I'll be honest--he didn't *want* to investigate this call, probably because he's heard it a million times and found nothing a million times. You have to make the case to the GM. You can't just sit there and tattle if you don't have substance. That's the difference between a rat and someone who enforces the law. If the GMs are compelled to listen to me more than the average player, it's because I set it up so that they can't see it any other way unless I'm flat-out wrong.

If fleetool ends up being discontinued by this shell and everyone else, that's great. The game is better for it. Next up will be the warp and scanbots. It will be harder, yes. But come on now. That fleetool is rampant is no one's fault but the honest public's. It's nothing but pure laziness that has allowed this poor hack to survive.
 
I'd imagine that the RMT do not use their hacks with near the frequency that a player would.

Looking at what was reported, (A dynamis run and a sky event,) it was fairly easy for the GM to sit and watch as the offender used his tool several times or was still using it when the GM was informed. Long term use of the tool allowed said offender to be caught in the act and action to be taken.

A gillseller who turns on his fleetool once every hour-two hours for a few seconds would be much more difficult to nail. GM's do not have unlimited access to player accounts or anything of the sort, I'd imagine that to jail someone for an infraction requires the GM to be present at the time and be witness to said hack.

I could be wrong on this but given the information we have it seems the likeliest explanation.

As to the person who said he was considering installing this for convenience or debating it, I'd strongly advise against that. This is no joke, it will get you banned and all the hours spent on your character wasted.
 
lvl 75 THF job trait: movement speed +50% <Can I have it?>
 
I was in their shell for a few months until leaving on what I consider good terms. They do it from time to time when drama hits and they need damage control. It's a good idea, as some things were said in the last outbreak from their members that probably shouldn't have been said. Unified front is understandable.
 
Bigboy said:
When RMT start using such blatent cheats as speed hax, people wont have as much trouble reporting them successfully. I have never actually seen a GS use a fleetool, but I have been relatively sure there are ones using claimbots. (Who knows though, it's not like they dont have enough experience with NMs...)

I would imagine the people Peregrine is targetting are far easier to nail than some DRG running around Sanctuary of Zitah.
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In my experience, RMT hack way more than anyone else. Logically speaking, they wouldn't have any compunction not to cheat. Their characters themselves mean nothing to them, they are just tools to get gil; whereas actual players don't want their achievements to go to waste. They already break the ToS on a daily basis, adding the use of third-party programs into the mix is perfectly plausible.

A month or two ago at the King Arturo spawn point, the gil sellers started camping him. They hadn't been there for 2 months prior to that day, so they /search whored us. Unlike everyone else who had to run through KRT to get there, the gil sellers just wallhacked over the log nearby(KA spawns in an isolated area that is blocked by a log from the rest of the zone). When KA was about to spawn, they had one of their friends wallhack over the log and pulled about 10 mobs, then hacked back over the log and brought them all right into his spawn area. KA then spawned in the middle of all of those pulled mobs and the gil sellers claimed, which I'm positive they used a claim bot because we couldn't even see KA in the group until they -ga'd all their pulled mobs. They did this for several days straight, with everyone in my linkshell making GM calls. The GM's didn't do anything until we called a GM before the spawn to watch what happened.
 
Yeah, I mean I just dont see it as often. They tend to use it very quickly, unlike that video that showed Proph racing around for a good while with it. Using it to kite is like a 15+ minute use of the tool where as a warphack is instant, and much harder to see by a GM unless they had happened to be there ahead of time.

Not that RMT don't use the hacks more frequently, but they seem to only use ones that have more of an "Instant gratification" like claim bots and warp hacks that only take effect for a small moment, thus making them harder to catch in the act.

Thats all I meant, but you are right that RMT prolly cheat a whole lot more than your average player.
 
My opinion on the windower itself is that I could care less. WoW supports a windowed mode. Sure they are technichaly breaking the rules, but I speed every time I drive, something that is against the rules, hell I can get a ticket for it. Does that mean I am in the same league as some one who is DUI? I really do not think so.

I love seeing hackers get banned though. Makes me happy.
 
There's nothing wrong with priming a GM call. You do what you have to do to present your case. If the hackers do it once and aren't caught, they will do it again assuming they won't be. That is probably how warpers and scanners will be caught in the end--stings instead of realtime reports.
 
Peregrine said:
There's nothing wrong with priming a GM call. You do what you have to do to present your case. If the hackers do it once and aren't caught, they will do it again assuming they won't be. That is probably how warpers and scanners will be caught in the end--stings instead of realtime reports.
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He has a point. The average response time on GMs is what... 1-2 hours? If you know ahead of time when a person is going to be hacking why not be ready.
 
These two calls took about 45 minutes from start to resolution. I would say the GM responded within the half hour with a queue in the 30's.
 
No, although I have to admit that hackhunting would be more fun than 95% of the coded game. I like my entertainment like I like my sports: legitimate. I ran D1 collegiate track, and have seen enough illegitimacy in entertainment for two lifetimes.
 
Why someone cares about what another LS does is beyond me, especially when it does not effect the person making the accusations.

Some people say that it's stupid that SE didn't allow for a windowed mode, so they justify using windower in that sense. Those same people say using fleetool is very bad.

How to justify using fleetool in a similar context? It was stupid for SE to not add more teleport crags and faster ways to get around the world since everyone has to spend 30 minutes running to the same zones daily.

A cheat is a cheat. If something you are doing is outside of the TOS, then you are in violation of the TOS. It's as simple as that. You're saying that shooting someone in the arm is different from shooting them in the leg.
 
fleetool isnt analagous to having more teleports. not unless you position one every 3 feet and make casting time on them instant and mp-free. noone uses teleports to kite mobs, jump around inzone barriers or claim mobs.
 
Euphacent said:
Why someone cares about what another LS does is beyond me, especially when it does not effect the person making the accusations.

Some people say that it's stupid that SE didn't allow for a windowed mode, so they justify using windower in that sense. Those same people say using fleetool is very bad.

How to justify using fleetool in a similar context? It was stupid for SE to not add more teleport crags and faster ways to get around the world since everyone has to spend 30 minutes running to the same zones daily.

A cheat is a cheat. If something you are doing is outside of the TOS, then you are in violation of the TOS. It's as simple as that. You're saying that shooting someone in the arm is different from shooting them in the leg.
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There's a big broad line between violating the ToS and actually cheating. The seperation is simply this: have you given yourself an unfair advantage over other players? The answer with windower is no. The answer for fleetool, mrargus, warptool, and assist to a point is yes.

If one more person echoes this dribble i'm going to kill a kitten. From now on please do familiarize yourselves with the definition of cheating before expounding further and bringing the windower up yet again for no reason whatsoever.
 
Euphacent said:
How to justify using fleetool in a similar context? It was stupid for SE to not add more teleport crags and faster ways to get around the world since everyone has to spend 30 minutes running to the same zones daily.

A cheat is a cheat. If something you are doing is outside of the TOS, then you are in violation of the TOS. It's as simple as that. You're saying that shooting someone in the arm is different from shooting them in the leg.
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And you're saying that giving them a paper cut is the same as throwing them off a cliff?

And I think that were they only using the flee tool to move from one town to another, it would still be illegal. It would however be a lot less concerning than, the fact that they're using the hack to kite just about every significantly difficult mob in the game. They don't seem to have the skill (or the desire) to defeat the mob fairly, so they cheat to do it...
 
This is why I wish people would pay more attention to the fact that this tool has been used in dynamis xarcabard.

Demons+puller=dead puller
Demons+fleetooler=alive puller
 
I like this thread. One of the first good discussion threads we've had in quite sometime :) anyways.. I think I've made my point clear about hacking before. Hacks are a huge problem that desperately need to be taken care of. At the very least, claim bots. I use the windower only caure I like talking on AIM to my friends when I wanna play FFXI. It's a game that I can play and still talk to my friends without waiting for load time with ctrl tabbing. I don't care for any other "cheats". I will admit that I've used a flee hack before though. Only two times though that I can remember (and pretty sure no other times). Once when I first got it to see what it was like (it was amusing for five seconds to flee from one side of a zone to another but then I realized using it wouldn't allow me to zone so I decided "meh" to that) and the other time was when I turned it on for another 5 seconds joking with people doing CoP 8-2. Sorry to say Garvin didn't find my joke amusing x.x and I deleted it after that. Oh wait! come to think there is one other "cheat" I have which is called DeathTime and basically it gets you the ToD of a mob without you being at the computer. I actually never used it cause I either keep forgetting I have it or just sit at the computer while waiting for a mob anyways doing homework or camping the mob itself.

That's my confession with any cheats. Frankly I don't care to use them as they are cheating and I'd never use them in a fight anyways. I, personally, love a good challenge in a game. The main reason I confess about the hacks (all 3) I used in the past is to just get those that'll think I'm being hypocritical when I say I'm against hacks when I've used 3 (and still using one, windower). I don't use them at all to screw another person's gameplay (one I've never used at all) and I wouldn't even care to use it against other people. It's wrong for OH to use hacks so openly and not care how it'll screw another's player fun (though using a flee hack on Kirin really seems to not hurt anyone even if it isn't fair considering Kirin isn't like a HNM where it's competative, a person who pops kirin should have all rights to kirin and if they lose should let it depop really where as flee hacking at say, KB would be unfair as that's a competative HNM). Anyways.. I think I'll just say, wrong for OH to hack and calling a GM might do something about it but it might not. People might continue to hack and not care about the consequences being a game anyways.

oh.. and lol @ www.outerheavenls.com/dicks.htm
 
Morally justifying on Kirin Versus direct competition, I think, is just as invalid as calling the windower and fleetool equal. In the opposite sense. In fact, it makes no difference whether it is directly competitive or not. If it is used to any advantage, that is a cheat.
 
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