Tips from a JP Taru

No harm done, this thread is turning into a perfect example of all the miscellaneous communication problems that the OP quote is referring to. One wrong word and everyone gets all confused.
 
Instead of {Reward}, I've seen a JP use the word {present}. Kinda-sorta the same... >_> :wink:
 
People should have been able to figure that out already.

Almost all JP use comments. There has to be a reason.
They want to be respected. NA treat them as different beings.
They want good players.

I've had plenty of invites from JP players, and there were times when it was the same guys too, and this was from long ago.

:/
 
Lecan said:
I look at it from an entirely different perspective.

While you may see it that we should treat everyone the same, the fact of the matter is different cultures have different ideas about the same thing. What we may consider respectful, other cultures may find incredibly rude.

Again, when in rome, do as the romans do. Just because you are American (or British, in your case) you wouldn't do something that was blatantly offensive to them, on the basis that it is a benign or nice thing to do in your country.

While I don't think we should all go around acting like the Japanese to make them feel more comfortable (because yes, this is a multicultural game), I do think that when speaking to someone Japanese we should try to make them feel more accustomed to joining your party (ESPECIALLY in the event that they are the only JP in your party).

Perhaps if we share information with one another instead of assuming one another has ill intent we will get along and work together more often.

That hit home for me. I agree with that in every single aspect. In the Navy, when you go to a different country, the Navy teaches you how to carry yourself so that you dont offend any of the natives. When your in somebody else's house.....you follow their rules.

Like, at my house, I take my shoes off when I'm inside. I expect the same from everyone else cause I dont feel like getting my carpet shampoo'd that often.
 
Great post, I was actually waiting for something like this, there are a lot of people who think because they can form a coeherent phrase in english with the translator JP will be able to understand it. I know two languages,that's why I know that just tossing a bunch of words translated will not make sense on a second language, no matter how much sense does in the 1st.
 
I play on JP time all week and only get to play with NA's during the weekend. This article was one of the truest things I've read regarding this issue. When I first started playing this game, I got so turned off by "Japanese racism" that it was rubbing off on my real life. I live in Japan, and I was beginning to think that they hated me in real life as well as in-game. It's not the case, they just have different ways of doing things.

Thankfully, 2 years later, I've made friends with enough JP players that I can actually enjoy the game. My CoP static LS is all Japanese, and they do their best to understand me, and I do my best to understand them. Things would be a lot easier if I played on NA time. But I'm glad I've gotton to meet and enjoy the game with the JP players I've befriended.

I still hate LFG during JP time though. And anytime I have to ask a JP group (who's shouting about doing a kindredseal 30) if I can come, I cringe, because I know I'm either gonna get rejected or end up explaining why I speak Japanese, why I live in Japan, etc, etc.

Anyway, long post. It's late and I tend to go on and on. But... great post Lecan. Very good find.
 
Mai Ikari said:
Seems like everyone missed the point... the JP arn't asking to be treated special, they're asking to be treated the same as we treat other NA's. We don't go spewing nonsenical german at our LS mates, so let's not spew nonsensical auto-translation ([may][bee] and [reward] are good examples) at our JP counterparts. Or ignore their party customs, for that matter.

My person fav was when pres. nixion went to a south american contry and cause a riot because he did that eagle spread two finger bull horn move he does, which in that contry was a insult.

Though the post was very sound and learned few thing I dint know.
I know ive been guilty of trying get them to copprehend by using auto translate but words dont always translate like they sould :wacko:
 
I kinda skimmed over the thread after the OP so i am not sure if this question had been answered, but Haijin = someone who plays all the time (derogatory term).

also, to continue the theme of the post that was quoted, as many of you seem to have found it useful... i thought i might bring up a few other problematic auto-translater phrases, and add some of my observations while playing this game '-';.

(take care) = be careful
(japanese) = the language not the people
(Main) = main weapon not like main job or main healer
(Conserve MP) - does not indacate that someone should save MP or not Nuke a lot... it is simply a romanji word that roughly sounds like "Conserve MP" to name the BLM Ability.
(Help me out!) = i think this is obvious but it means that you're being attacked... donno, still seen it in shouts for things like G1 and stuff.
(Leave) = very rude word to use towarsd another person '-'; translates as very angry... only use it in conjuncture with the BST ability.

I can't think of any others at the moment... what else..

Oh, if you get a JP invite, and want to take it... don't say (I'm Sorry)(I don't speak any japanese). That comes off as you not being interested, so they will just say OK and leave it at that. Instead say something along the lines of (I don't speak japanese)(Party)OK (generally PT invites in japanese include the PT abbreviation so... you will usually know what they are talking about :p).

if you have ess than 2 hours to dedicate to exping when you arrive at camp, not from when you get invited, let the leader know when you are invited. In general most japanese parties last for 2-3hours at least, at later levels they will usually go for 10k exp before considering disbanding... and like the quoted post says, replacement really isn't a popular thing for Japanese pts to do, when one members has to go is when the party ends.

If you know some japanese, even without the IME capablility, make sure to indicate that the party is mixed if it is. I Find that most japanese players will accept an invite, and stick with the party, as long as they know in advanced about the demographics. Typically i write the following when inviting a japanese player:

よろしくー 私たちは#人PT(job listings here)で、lvl-lvlです。#人は日本語がわからないが、一緒にレベルあげませんか?

yorosiku- watasitachi ha #ninPT(Jobs)de, ##-##desu. #nin ha nihongoga wakaranaiga, isshoni reberu agemasenka.

that translates to: Hi, we are a # person party (job listsings), lvls ##-##. # people do not understand japanese. Would you like to level together?

If you don't know japanese the invitation examples given in the quoted post will do fine, but for those who are learning japanese and want to communicate in it some, the above invite or something like it will get a good response..

I donno, i can't think of anything else espeacially helpful at the moment. Maybe i'll post more later :o
 
Mixi said:
Yeah, I took it as you were saying 'when in a JP game, do as the JP do', when indeed we are all players in the same game.
It's more along the lines of "if you're in a party with five Japanese players, try to do as a Japanese player would." A lot of Americans get stubborn and defensive about "their" way of doing things, but in that situation, it really does make more sense for you to adjust to them than it does for the five of them to adjust to you.



On a more general note, I have some basic Japanese language comprehension, and as of the IME release, I've been able to bust out of the prison of romaji and type in full kana. Being able to get across that I can communicate (even minimally) in Japanese in my comments has increased my party invitations from Japanese players, and I was beginning to think I was catching on to some of their habits that differ from NA players.

I can wholeheartedly agree about how leaving a party within an hour or two of joining it is far more frowned upon within the Japanese player base. In their eyes, if you don't have the time to stay with the party as long as it's going to last (at least three or four hours in a decent one), you shouldn't have joined in the first place. I'm inclined to agree with them on this point: NA players are faaaarrr to willing to leave a party in the dust once they get ther own level, and no...find a replacement after you've fought for 45 minutes does NOT make everything alright.

What makes things worse is that I'd estimate about 6 or 7 times out of ten, people don't really HAVE to leave. Oh, they may or may not give you a good reason, and they may or may not be lying, but much of the time, I really suspect that they've just gotten bored of the party and want out.

One other thing I began to notice, too, is that Japanese players tend to be more upfront about their party information when asking another player if they'd be interested. This is something I feel is kind of unique to FFXI; that is, NA players tend to make the sum total of their invitation {Party}{Do you need it?}.

That's hardly better than a blind invite, if it's better at all. Most of the invitations I receive are indeed like that, and having come from a background in Everquest, I always frustratedly at least do a /search all on the person that asked, so I can (at minimum) get a bead on their current level and job, and whether or not they're asking me as a replacement. A little courtesy information will go a long way into making someone feel comfortable about joining your party. Of course, NA players tend to be more willing to dive into a party blind, so it may simply never occur to a lot of us.

A few beneficial habits that I wish more NA players would adopt:


1) If you only have an hour or two to play, you shouldn't look for a party. I'm sorry, but that's the way I feel.

"But I don't have more than two hours a night to play! :("

Then a slow-progression MMORPG like this may not be the best choice for you. Consider levelling a solo job. Do not, however, force a party to deal with your after-one-hour disband.


2) While I do appreciate the sentiment in your desire to find a replacement, realize that the fact that you did it doesn't necessarily make you better than a player who simply gives advanced notice of their planned departure. In fact, in some situations, I'd say it's almost worse than if you had just plain left. It is almost NEVER a good idea to just start looking for someone else out of the blue ... if the first notification to your party that you're leaving is the arrival of your replacement, there's a good chance that you didn't do anyone any favors.

Why? A number of reasons:

If you want out because the party sucks, it's not kosher to try to find a replacement. You're just shirking your burden and bad luck on some other poor, unsuspecting soul. Have the balls to say you don't think the party is working, suggest what would need to happen to improve things, and if you don't think any improvement will happen at all, explain to your group that you're not willing to play any longer, and why. At least the direct approach has the merit of honesty. If you're really concerned with doing the right thing, it should not involve making another person suffer where you weren't willing to.

More importantly, there is something that simply doesn't seem to occur to many people: you should ask the PARTY before you try to find a replacement; you shouldn't just do so in silence. In my opinion, if you don't at least make a cursory effort to consult with the party first, it's hardly any better than saying "haf 2 g0 after my lvl l0l."

Consider the situation you're getting this other person into: is the party going to disband in twenty minutes? Maybe the group just wants to take your leaving as an opportunity to quit. TALK TO THE PARTY ABOUT IT FIRST, PLEEEAAASE.

I actually had someone in a party yesterday tell me they've never heard anyone ask their party if it would be a good idea to find a replacement for them before doing so, after trying to invite a monk before bothering to find out that the group was likely to disband in half an hour. He argued with me for almost ten minutes about it. It's possible he's never seen someone bother, but I've seen lots: in my opinion, the truly considerate players do. He did not, however, disagree on the point that doing so would be a good idea.


3)True "Internet outages" are rare, for almost everyone. I'm not talking about your standard disconnects; I'm talking about the ol' lagging out and never returning. It certainly doesn't happen often enough to explain the frequency with which folks mysteriously disappear. Understand that you're not fooling anyone with your intentional disconnect: there will be, at the very least, a strong suspicion that you did it on purpose. The practice is too widespread, and the possibility of your Internet really being "out" so unlikely, that the suspicion is guaranteed.

I'm not saying that it never happens legitimately; don't post your "story" of it happening to you. We all know it does. I'm saying that I'd estimate that at least half of them are fake. Once again, just be direct if you want to leave. There's less to be guilty about in that (in my opinion) than in unplugging your modem.


4) If you're the leader, that means more than finding all the necessary members for the party. Please take the initiative to also decide where the party is headed, what they're fighting, and setting up all the necessary skillchain, SATA, and other necessary details. Don't force the red mage to beg the black mage to stop casting Bio II. Don't make your thief tell the dark knight not to get in the way of his trick attack. Keep things in line; with one person clearly running things, even if you don't have the most skill in the world, party efficiency should skyrocket. This doesn't mean you don't have to listen to suggestions and advice from your party members, nor does it necessarily mean that you can't run your party as a democracy. It does mean, however, that the initiative for all decisions, the person who should get the ball rolling on at least a DISCUSSION about things, the person who should finally decide on something when nobody else will ... is YOU.

You're the leader. We're NA players, yes, and culturally, we get a lot more defensive when we're given suggestions (or even instructions) than are Japanese players, but this is one thing we could really do with a bit of humility on.

Little frustrates me more than a leader that does the initial work of forming a party, then goes silent for the next three hours, forcing the people they've invited to organize everything else. Forming a party means strategizing; you're expected to be the brains of the operation. Getting six names in the bottom right corner is NOT the sum of your duties.


5) Okay, so this isn't exactly a party thing, but it's still something we could learn from. Most Japanese players that advertise for something in /shout precede their advertisement each and every time with "shauto shitsureishimasu," (シャウト失礼します) or end it with "shauto shitsureishimashita" (シャウト失礼しました). Roughly translated, this means "I'm committing a rudness by shouting, but..."

It's a refreshing change of pace from the people in Lower Jeuno that literally have full-fledged battles of ego in that, flaring pinkish text. -_-





A few things I wish Japanese players would change:

1) I think that many of them carry grudges for far too long, and has been stated already, they have long memories. There should be more allowance for the evolution of a player; a lot can change between what a true newbie is like his first time in Garlaige Citadel, and what the merit party he's forming is like six months later. Most people, I think, can agree that the "one chance" standard is excessively strict ... although the degree of your newbishbess might mean your second chance will be a long time coming.


2) All Japanese citizens that have graduated grade school can read romaji. Not some of them; all. There's a mandatory six years of English in public school set forth by the Japanese Ministry of Education, and the very first thing that Japanese children learn to do with the Roman alphabet is write their own language in it.

Many Japanese players will see romaji, and not bother trying to read it at all. I know this firsthand, and it's frustrating as all get-out. I don't know whether it's because they see the roman letters, and assume it's English, or because they don't want to deign to acknowledging the pollution of their language, or perhaps even because it's just too hard to read.

I'm all but certain, however, that a few Japanese players outright ignore romaji when typed, even when they recognize it as romaji, simply because it was an NA player that typed it.

This is a problem I've been able to avoid since it's been possible to type in kana, but I still wish that some Japanese players would acknowledge the extra mile some players go with at least a minimal response. This is by no means a widespread problem, but when it happens, it's offensive.




Phew, I could go on, but I've got to go to the bathroom, and I've said a lot already. o_O

What does everyone else think?
 
I think that it should be stressed that reading japanese in roamji is difficult... since you brought up that all japanese players know our alphabet. Speaking as someone who isn't even fluent in the language, and who speaks english as her first language... if i find it hard/annoying to read japanese in romanji, i can only imagine what it's like for people who speak/read japanese as their primary language.

So yes... everyone who plays this game can understand you if you write in japanese with romanji, but it takes a good amount of effort... just good to keep things in context.
 
Nasya said:
I think that it should be stressed that reading japanese in roamji is difficult... since you brought up that all japanese players know our alphabet. Speaking as someone who isn't even fluent in the language, and who speaks english as her first language... if i find it hard/annoying to read japanese in romanji, i can only imagine what it's like for people who speak/read japanese as their primary language.

So yes... everyone who plays this game can understand you if you write in japanese with romanji, but it takes a good amount of effort... just good to keep things in context.

I'll have to diasgree that it takes a good amount of effort to read romaji. It may take some time oto get the hang of it...but it's really not so hard. Why? Because...have you ever tried communicating in Mandarin using the English alphabet? That's the hardest thing EVER. It frustrates me when some Chinese person tries talking to me... and I try to respond, and either they don't understand me or I don't understand them. Unlike Japanese, the way to type out a Chinese character is not really set in stone. Plus you also have to take into consideration the 4 ways it can be pronounced...

But I'll have to say that when I use IME, a lot of Japanese people that I have come across were seriously impressed. (Even Rooi! haha) And plus they have no way of avoiding/dodging me if I display the fact that I know Japanese. What's really weird is that once you show that you know Japanese, they'll go all out and use words/grammar I don't know and then I'm spending a good chunk of my time digging through my dictionaries.

But back to the OP. I think this was really informative and has really opened my mind more to how the Japesene players see things so that I can be more curteous to them the next time I encounter them. So thanks for posting this! I'll definitely keep this in mind when I'm partying next time.
 
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Nasya said:
I think that it should be stressed that reading japanese in roamji is difficult... since you brought up that all japanese players know our alphabet. Speaking as someone who isn't even fluent in the language, and who speaks english as her first language... if i find it hard/annoying to read japanese in romanji, i can only imagine what it's like for people who speak/read japanese as their primary language.

So yes... everyone who plays this game can understand you if you write in japanese with romanji, but it takes a good amount of effort... just good to keep things in context.
Nevertheless, it's the only possible outlet for many NA players to even attempt to communicate with Japanese players in their own language. Since the developers decided that NA players would be too stupid for their own good, the option to type Japanese characters was completely and forcibly removed from us.

Seriously, the code for the Japanese input system is still in our version of the game. All the IME plugin does is unlock it and adapt it. That's another thing that I've got to take issue with, but with the developers, not the players: they didn't even want to give us the CHANCE. Japanese text wouldn't have to be triggered by default, but we should have at least had the option open to us ... in an offline configuration file, if nothing else. It may have been an American manager who made that decision, or a Japanese one, but it was a bad one all around.

Since it really is the only way a lot of players can even try to speak a little Japanese to a Japanese player, intentional ignoring of the text can't be given the same justification as ignoring someone with their caps lock on; i.e., it's harder to read that way, they made the choice to be that annoying, so it's fine to pretend they're not there.

It may be a bit more annoying to read, but I very much consider it a step up from the auto-translate function. It represents an added investment of a player's time to try to communicate better, rather than simply taking half-a-second to spew out some auto-translate nonsense. Thus, an unwillingness to invest a little extra effort to read it is still a rudeness.

It's not like it's something completely alien and unfamiliar: Japanese students get a great deal of practice reading romaji, in the form of timed drills and tests.

Bearing all that in mind, I feel it's not too much to ask that one make an ATTEMPT to read what I'm trying to get across to them. That's all I ask. Don't brush me off because I couldn't type in anything else but what was forced on me.

This isn't a widespread problem, as I've said ... many Japanese players will respond to me in romaji just as quickly as if I had come at them in full kana and kanji. Still, there's that one in ten that very studiously ignore you ... that's where I'm coming from. :/



By the way, there's no "n" in "romaji." I'm being a nitpicking bastard, I know, and I apologize for it.
 
give the taru a medal. that seacom bit is noteworthy... especially when he mentions they'll invite anything before someone without a search comment
 
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