Treasure Hunter

[Uzor]

I know it would most likely be useless outside of Dynamis, I' mnot saying its not. what I'm saying is that it would still be of value to know how TH works in Dynamis, and if NM's etc. drops AF's at a higher rate (since the Dynamis Xarcabard NM's do).

And even if we could figure out how it works in Dynamis, we could still learn about how TH works, and thus later do the same tests outside of Dynamis, and figure out how it works then.

The problem with TH, is that since the drop rates are random, and TH seem to be such a low % increase, it takes an insane ammount of tries both with and without TH in order to be able to say anything for certain, something that is almost impossible to do alone. However, with more people helping out, it is far easier to do. Which was the whole point of the OP.

As for your theory on how TH works in Dynamis, I don't believe that is true. Easiest way to see it is by studying drops and who kills it (as I mentioned earlier.) You'll notice that parties with TH makes coins drop more frequently, something it wouldn't do if your theory was true. And far more experienced LS's then my own have also noticed an increased drop rate if you put the THF's in the killing parties, something that you wouldn't be able to see if it rolled for each person in Dynamis.

Even if it did roll for each person in the party, it would be better to place a THF in each killing party. And it would also still be interresting to perform a large test to figure out just how TH works, even if its just in Dynamis.

 

[Rappa]

I haven't read over all of the numbers posted here, but I know that Decidence has put a whole lot of time into researching TH and how it seems to work. You might wanna check out the info he put together and see how it compares to your theories:

http://gameraddicts.com/bolsf/Decidence/misc.htm

 

[Stouter]

My reason to believing TH only works when the party kills the mob, is because Gilfinder only works within the party.

Crystal drops are also party only based, you can't get more crystals than you have people with signet in the party that killed the mob. But the problem with dynamis is that every mob is red, so it's as though they are claimed by every single party there when they die.

 

[Uzor]

Crystal drops are also party only based, you can't get more crystals than you have people with signet in the party that killed the mob. But the problem with dynamis is that every mob is red, so it's as though they are claimed by every single party there when they die.

But then how come many LS's claim that drop rates increase when you put a THF in the party who kills the most?

Try it out yourselves, put a THF in the parties who kill the most mobs, and you'll see more AF's drop. Put a THF in the BLM party and you'll almost guaranteed see more coins drop from the stones.

 

[Peregrine]

Claim is the key word. Reality is a whole other story. When you do something, you think you're right and it'll take a lot to prove to you that you're wrong, especially when we're dealing with subjectivity. You don't even believe that TH stacks in a party when it clearly does. TH 10 would be a PARTY with TH4, 3, and 3. Again, if you have a party of 4:

Th4 thf, 2 th3 thieves, and a whm.
Get better drops than:
Th4 thf, war, nin, whm.

Sorry, that's pretty much a fact. Lavi's theory covers that fact, and would be more likely to be correct. Like I said, if you go into your observations wrong, you're coming out wrong no matter what.

"Try it out, you'll notice that" is useless gullibility tactics. You can notice a lot that's not there. It's called a false positive, and videogamers convince themselves that they're right entirely too easily. TH stacks within the party. You're simply wrong if you believe otherwise, and I could pretty much prove that very easily.

If you can't pit TH10 against Th4 by all means. Ask Invic to supply the 10 and go kill something with 4 players. We'll beat your count. Pretty simple really. Your theory has no chance of being right, since your theory is based on something that isn't true. Sorry. Love your background and whatever to death, but your buds are the most superstitious group I've ever seen in this game. They had me try to killshot gods because they swore it works. They keep their northlands papers and swear it works.

Your proposal reflects your background, and your background is subjective sentiment that borders on cult lore. I would gladly whip your shell's pet TH4 with my thieves. You probably wouldn't let me.

I think that a thief has to be active in a kill to put TH on a kill, and that as lavi and decidence agree...all members capable of damaging a mob add to the drop rate. Thieves simply add more than your average player. In a full alliance, the drop rate is maxed out. Adding thieves is the only way to make ridills drop more frequently, because you can't add more players.

 

[Uzor]

Claim is the key word. Reality is a whole other story. When you do something, you think you're right and it'll take a lot to prove to you that you're wrong, especially when we're dealing with subjectivity. You don't even believe that TH stacks in a party when it clearly does. TH 10 would be a PARTY with TH4, 3, and 3. Again, if you have a party of 4:

Th4 thf, 2 th3 thieves, and a whm.
Get better drops than:
Th4 thf, war, nin, whm.

Sorry, that's pretty much a fact. Lavi's theory covers that fact, and would be more likely to be correct. Like I said, if you go into your observations wrong, you're coming out wrong no matter what.

"Try it out, you'll notice that" is useless gullibility tactics. You can notice a lot that's not there. It's called a false positive, and videogamers convince themselves that they're right entirely too easily. TH stacks within the party. You're simply wrong if you believe otherwise, and I could pretty much prove that very easily.

If you can't pit TH10 against Th4 by all means. Ask Invic to supply the 10 and go kill something with 4 players. We'll beat your count. Pretty simple really. Your theory has no chance of being right, since your theory is based on something that isn't true. Sorry. Love your background and whatever to death, but your buds are the most superstitious group I've ever seen in this game. They had me try to killshot gods because they swore it works. They keep their northlands papers and swear it works.

Your proposal reflects your background, and your background is subjective sentiment that borders on cult lore. I would gladly whip your shell's pet TH4 with my thieves. You probably wouldn't let me.

I think that a thief has to be active in a kill to put TH on a kill, and that as lavi and decidence agree...all members capable of damaging a mob add to the drop rate. Thieves simply add more than your average player. In a full alliance, the drop rate is maxed out. Adding thieves is the only way to make ridills drop more frequently, because you can't add more players.

I've never, ever, said that killshot matters. I've always said the opposite, in fact. You're once again making shit up. You might also not remember that I don't run Dynamis with them at all.

And you keep repeating that my theory is wrong. I'm not saying its right. I'm saying its a theory, and you're also saying that you're 100% sure YOUR theory is right, even though you have no mean of proving it, unless you start a huge test (which this thread is all about, anyway).

So mind telling me exactly why you're arguing? I'm not saying any theory is wrong, I'm not saying any theory is right, I'm sayign we should perform a test so we can prove one of them right. So I'll ask you again, why are you dragging your mouth through the thread arguing against no one instead of staying out or contributiong to it by, as an example, actually help out with the test?

 

[hellstorm]

well everything is done by numbers (dice);
so each person is in turn giving there own % to the pot. Lets say the dice was 1-1000 consideing most thing seem go off this calculation in this game.

a war/nin rolls die 1-1000 and rolls a 754
a war/thf rolls die 100-1000 rolls a 600
a thf/war rolls die 200-1000 roll 912
a th3 thf rolls die 300-1000 rolls 400
a th4 thf rolls die 400-1000 rolls 844

Though either way it is my belief that only the killing party get to roll the dice. Ive seen blm get good drop, ive seen sammy get good drop. Hell even ive killed mobs before and 3 diffent occasions have had two 100 coins and one af2 drop. Does this mean party need thf no above theroy whould prove but you a giving your party better chance with thf in.

 

[Tagrineth]

I'd say the "killing party" thing really doesn't hold water with me.

At least, based on my experience with my Dynamis linkshell - Vang is becoming notorious for having his kills result in zero drops now. I decided I'd screenshot the first Vang kill I saw which resulted in drops of any kind - but not one single Dynamis mob has dropped anything for a Vang kill yet.

 

[Sneakypants]

My only suggestion would be to save your time.

Who cares how it works? You get drops or you don't.
TH does help, but superstitions just make you feel like you are somehow controlling the drops a little bit.

 

[hellstorm]

I'd say the "killing party" thing really doesn't hold water with me.

At least, based on my experience with my Dynamis linkshell - Vang is becoming notorious for having his kills result in zero drops now. I decided I'd screenshot the first Vang kill I saw which resulted in drops of any kind - but not one single Dynamis mob has dropped anything for a Vang kill yet.

well considering it still random this could be so. First off even with thf your chance are slim on getting stuff from dynamis because the drop rate there are extremly low. Treasure hunter just give you a better chance at getting A item. If it was to work the way in my thoery, it be like him rolling a 22 on a item or this case a 422 because th lift your chance of getting low numbers.
It all probability. if you roll a die 10 times what the chance of a 5 showing up? Now SE calulation are way more complex then that of a single die, but the princible is the same.
Lets look at the facts they have said the more people you have better chance getting drop they also said that the thf does not need to make the kill, just be in the party. which give point that each person contribute to treasure and that thf bonus show up even if they dont get kill. Though notice he said party and not alliance. This and that over the months i was in sky shell it seem that better drops (most the time) came when the thf was in killing party.

 

[Westyle]

One rule of MMORPGs is that stat increases must have barely noticable effects.

 

[Courtney]

But then how come many LS's claim that drop rates increase when you put a THF in the party who kills the most?

Try it out yourselves, put a THF in the parties who kill the most mobs, and you'll see more AF's drop. Put a THF in the BLM party and you'll almost guaranteed see more coins drop from the stones.

Good Linkshells get more drops because they kill more mobs. I'm sure TH helps, but killing the most mobs will pretty well always give you the best results in Dynamis.

And wouldn't you want your THFs in the groups that kill normal mobs to get you more AF2?

 

[Uzor]

Good Linkshells get more drops because they kill more mobs. I'm sure TH helps, but killing the most mobs will pretty well always give you the best results in Dynamis.

And wouldn't you want your THFs in the groups that kill normal mobs to get you more AF2?

No, they notice an increase in drops when they put THF's in the parties that kill the most mobs. Lordwafik of Manaburn said it himself in a thread on theorderls, and others have also stated it.

And yes, which is what I've been arguing about in the first place. Spreading your THF's out between the parties that kills the most normal mobs, instead of putting them all in one party.

 

[Lavi]

But then how come many LS's claim that drop rates increase when you put a THF in the party who kills the most?

Try it out yourselves, put a THF in the parties who kill the most mobs, and you'll see more AF's drop. Put a THF in the BLM party and you'll almost guaranteed see more coins drop from the stones.

It's could because that's what people want to see. They see a drop come from the party with the thief and forget the other 50 mobs the THF party killed and no drop. Suddenly, you get a 2nd drop by another party and you shrug it off because it doesn't fit your hypothesis. Not saying you will falsify data, but people see what they want to see regardless of if the evidence points to the opposite. It isn't until they are confronted with actual proof and facts that they will come to accept the anything different.

Good Linkshells get more drops because they kill more mobs. I'm sure TH helps, but killing the most mobs will pretty well always give you the best results in Dynamis.

And wouldn't you want your THFs in the groups that kill normal mobs to get you more AF2?

You'll also notice that most LS say they get better drop rates once the members are experienced enough. They often pass off the improved killing efficiency for a recent TH+1 addition to the LS whether it be from a Thief's Knife or Assassin's Armlet. For example, we did Xarcabard several consecutive runs and after the 2nd or third run we got the Assassin's Armlets for TH3. We noticed improved drop rates, but of course people pass it off as the TH and it couldn't have anything to do with the fact the shell killed more and progressed further every run.

That's actually the question tho, do you NEED the thief in the party that does the killing. The interview said, the thief just needs to be in party, but what if it's an alliance, does it still hold true? What if it's dynamis where there are multiple alliances all fighting the same mob? Like most statements by SE, they are as vague as absolutely possible while still answering the question. They may have answered the question about thief getting the final hit, but it only opens up for a multitude of other factors.

 

[Skaw]

Stick a THF and a /thf in every dynamis party! TH3 naturally. More if the THF has gear. Then it won't matter who gets killing blow.

And if your drop rates increase dramatically, you'll know whats goin on.

Also, I still don't like people calling it TH3 and TH4, since TH+ items grant no bonus anywhere near that the traits provide. TH2+1 or TH2+2 all the way.

 

[Uzor]

It's could because that's what people want to see. They see a drop come from the party with the thief and forget the other 50 mobs the THF party killed and no drop. Suddenly, you get a 2nd drop by another party and you shrug it off because it doesn't fit your hypothesis. Not saying you will falsify data, but people see what they want to see regardless of if the evidence points to the opposite. It isn't until they are confronted with actual proof and facts that they will come to accept the anything different.

No, its more the thing that they see increased drops from parsing when they spread the THF's out. And as their LS wipes the entire zone (cities) pretty much every time, experience doesn't really matter.

You'll also notice that most LS say they get better drop rates once the members are experienced enough. They often pass off the improved killing efficiency for a recent TH+1 addition to the LS whether it be from a Thief's Knife or Assassin's Armlet. For example, we did Xarcabard several consecutive runs and after the 2nd or third run we got the Assassin's Armlets for TH3. We noticed improved drop rates, but of course people pass it off as the TH and it couldn't have anything to do with the fact the shell killed more and progressed further every run.

That's actually the question tho, do you NEED the thief in the party that does the killing. The interview said, the thief just needs to be in party, but what if it's an alliance, does it still hold true? What if it's dynamis where there are multiple alliances all fighting the same mob? Like most statements by SE, they are as vague as absolutely possible while still answering the question. They may have answered the question about thief getting the final hit, but it only opens up for a multitude of other factors.

Which is, once again, the reason I started the thread. I want to see if it DOES matter, because then you could follow the proven fact to get increased drop rates. I haven't once said that I'm sure it only works when the THF is in the party, and I have said numerous times already that I want to test if it DOES matter. Which is what I've been arguing against, but for some reason, people keep repeatign themselves, thus forcing me to repeat myself.

so I'll say this once more, I want to perform a test to see if it matters or not. Whether or not it does doesn't matter, as the test would prove it, see?

 

[Lavi]

I understand that, but most people don't think TH works like that, that is all I am getting at. You are free to try it and if you can get more people to help, all the better, but you'd need a vast amount of data and different trials to see the benefits. If you really believe it, you'd skip the test altogether and just put a THF in each party anyways. There is no downside to this, only a possible upside.

 

[Uzor]

I understand that, but most people don't think TH works like that, that is all I am getting at. You are free to try it and if you can get more people to help, all the better, but you'd need a vast amount of data and different trials to see the benefits. If you really believe it, you'd skip the test altogether and just put a THF in each party anyways. There is no downside to this, only a possible upside.

Which is why I asked the other LS's for help on it.

I figured the easiest way to test if TH only works within the party would be in beaucedine on the exp scrolls. Put everyone with exp scrolls together, and put those without exp scrolls in a seperate party. If no one in that party kills the mob, and not a single scroll drops for more then 6 runs, then we could most likely safely assume that TH does indeed only affect the party or alliance, and not everyone inside Dynamis.

 

[Raziella]

I think the problem with trying to bring the effects the treasure hunter to an exact science is the potential influence of "other factors." Grant it, this is only for regular drops, but I've noticed changes in imperical data that sway with the moon phases:

Back in the day I would farm silk (subbing THF for TH1), and depending on the moon phase I could have anywhere from 15% drop rate to 25% drop rate with a poplation sample of 500-1000 kills(yes, I tracked my kills). I tried to make my sample as large as possible so that the percentage would be accurate, but here's the thing; After the first 100 or so, the precentage remained VERY consistent throughout the rest of the session (~15%). After that, I would try another day at a different moon phase, and I would get different CONSISTENT percentage numbers (~25%).

That's pretty significant. It may have just been luck of the draw, but a 10% difference with sample sizes that large, it's unlikely (if not statistically impossible) to attribute such a drastic change to coincidence.

Of course, since SE refuses to just say wtf the factors are, I can't say for certain that there's a correlation. It's been so long, I can't remember if it was the full moon or the new moon that I observed the higher drop rates.

DISCLAIMER:
Now, I'm not saying this has anything to do with HQ drops or Rare/Ex drops, but I think it proves that (knowing SE's track record of secret stats and influences) there MAY be other unknown factors involved that make TH hard to test. I mean, even the trait description of TH doesn't give any numbers or information about it other than a vague description. I'm willing to agree with earlier speculations that TH doesn't do anything at all or is so negligable, you really can't tell. And as a result people's minds play tricks on them and gigantic threads theorizing about how it works pop up. ;-)

 

[sirivalin]

Th

Everyone knows....all drops are determined by Kittens. The more kittens you have in any party, the better the drops. Now, some might say, that 1 Kitten is enough...but ask yourselfs, when it comes to kittens...is one ever enough?

There is also the whole Puppies > Kittens camp for drops. They think, 1 puppy per party, will increase drops, and the actual presence of kittens, lowers drop rates. But by this same standard, how could we explain, that in heavy Kitten alliances, with an actual puppy present, it seems drop rates slightly improve.

And don't get me started on the Ferret camp...they have a whole different theory.

Now, you can prove the above if you like, but I believe personally, kittens, puppies, ferrets or hamsters...everyone will have what they choose to believe, and what they refuse to accept.