When is it time to leave an endgame shell?

[xKronox]

Solution for all problems: Level another job to 75. Got 5/5 (or 6/6 if you do dreamlands) for your current job? Then level another job, get 5/5, repeat. This applys for sky shells as well. The time spent to earn points and get the drops you want for your new job keeps you motivated. The only reason big multi purpose shells come back to sky is to get things people want for new leveled jobs, and of course there being some what of a demand for said items.

I don't know why people say there's no gear left when they only have like 2 jobs or maybe even 5 LV75 jobs. There's always something in sky for a new job you leveled that I'm sure you might not have. In dynamis, which is the what the OP is only talking about this implies even more so. I doubt most people who feel they have all they want in dynamis have all the jobs leveled to max and 5/5 for all them. If then if you have no life all have all jobs with 5/5, then get a relic or something.

 

[Courtney]

That's not entirely true and you know it. A majority of the shells that moved out of sky are mainly comprised of members that were not even present when the shell was only doing sky. In fact, the shells you see today, changed pearls at one point or another between when they did solely sky and what events they do now (sky, sea, HNM, etc.). There are very very few shells that have remained generally the same and it's not that a majority of members have quit, but they've moved onto other shells. A lot of it has to do with shells breaking on part because leaders too, but I am left wondering, had members stuck around longer, would those shells still thrive today? After all, the members really only look out for their end of the agreement to help the shell, but a leader makes the agreement with everyone in the shell, not just for himself.

A few separate points there.

A Sky Shell that is only ever going to do Sky is destined to have a turnover of people. There simply isn't very much a shell with only a single event can offer someone when they have all they need from that event, unless that event also produces gil (which of course everyone needs). Sky really doesn't make gil. Shells that have a variety of events can offer people credit in those other events for people to do events that they are finished with. There is so much to endgame, and chances are, if someone is finished with one event, they still want gear from something else. Give them the chance to work towards it, and they'll keep coming.

Sky is four year old content. There is only so long people are going to be happy with doing just that, and Shells should be doing Sky exclusively for a very short time only. Shells are probably never completely finished with Sky, but theres no reason that even within a couple of months of starting, that any shell can't be doing other events as well.

If you rely exclusively on a single leader, you're in a very fragile situation. Shells need strong leadership, but there is simply too much involved for a single person to handle all of it. Usually, when someone tries, sooner or later they'll suffer some form of burnout, and need a break. Without the person who was making all the decisions, the shell the struggles.

 

[hellstorm]

Basically this, in my opinion.

If you work on a system whereby you earn the equipment by the hours you put into the group, then you should be free to leave once you've spent the time you put in, on what you want. Within reason, of course... Not just signing up to a shell, working for one item and leaving immediately afterwards or something.

Although it's not fair in some ways, it's equally unfair to keep someone in the linkshell for little or no gain. Especially since endgame can be very time consuming... And since there's so much endgame nowadays, they may want to replace the time spent in Dynamis with Limbus or something, for example.

I'd argue that he does. With a point system, you're pretty much getting paid for services rendered. If you get what you want and no longer have a reason to be there, why bother sticking around? Not everyone has the goal of "making the linkshell better."

Ideally, that would be understood during the recruiting process so the leader could decide if that person would be a good fit for their crew.

With these 2 quotes I would have to disagree slightly. First have 1 question for you what in sky does a mage want? (think few seconds then look below)

If you said zenith then you are correct. Though 90% sky shells today almost all the zenith gear is free lot. your system blm be up for a week then would have all his stuff and leave. There should be a moral drive to help others get gear as well.

There is no right time to leave a ls. It all depends on the person. It's personal preference. Some will stay longer after getting gear, others will ditch.

I agree there is no right time, but there is a moral time.

Being a leader myself, I'd say the right time to leave is when you've fulfilled your moral commitment to help those who took a part in helping you to gain something from an LS event, which generally does not extend to those who have recently joined a shell.

So if 18 people help you get 1 item, you should in-turn help those same 18 people to get 1 item.

Pay It Forward.

I agree with this.

That makes me laugh. Though, I don't laugh for the humor value. Indeed, that system would be great if it worked. However, throw in compounding factors that some players may not want that item, or want that item as much as their desire to attain a different item.

Say you need help getting YYR, but Member X wants Ridill. If I were to fulfill my moral obligation -- to help reciprocally -- whats the measure of equal distribution? A ridill will be 30x more intense than a YYR.

Aside:
Please guys, lets keep this civil. I am sure many people would love to bring up examples of players that did X or left shell Y for reason Z. If it is truly a problem take it to the flameboard and give us some valid entertainment.

Fleist was correct your example is apples and oranges. In one hand you talking a nm that can be soloed, in the other hand you talking the most camped nm in this game. Very different then a sky shell.

see strid quote

This issue here is not everyone has the time to do everything nor can you please everyones wants.

If the Sky Shell has nothing to offer it's members when they have their Sky Gear, then they should be expecting their members to move on. The reason they have a "revolving door of members" in general is because they're not offering their members anything other than Sky Gear.

Dynamis is worse. One of the Dynamis Shells I'm in though does have a lot to offer members after they have their AF. In fact, about 25% of the Shell is never lotting AF2, and having that 25% of experienced members still coming makes the Shell function better, keeps AF2 queues shorter, and keeps the turnaround in the shell to a minimum. In short, it keeps the Shell far stronger than it otherwise would be.

Understanding what motivates people to come (and it's different for different people) is the secret to keeping them coming, and a lot of shells just don't bother...

While yes there come a point when that member will leave there still should be a moral limit that you should stay. Mainly to the point where you are no longer needed and the ls can afford to loss you, or to the point where everyone that help you get your gear has received gear in return.

A few separate points there.

A Sky Shell that is only ever going to do Sky is destined to have a turnover of people. There simply isn't very much a shell with only a single event can offer someone when they have all they need from that event, unless that event also produces gil (which of course everyone needs). Sky really doesn't make gil. Shells that have a variety of events can offer people credit in those other events for people to do events that they are finished with. There is so much to endgame, and chances are, if someone is finished with one event, they still want gear from something else. Give them the chance to work towards it, and they'll keep coming.

Sky is four year old content. There is only so long people are going to be happy with doing just that, and Shells should be doing Sky exclusively for a very short time only. Shells are probably never completely finished with Sky, but theres no reason that even within a couple of months of starting, that any shell can't be doing other events as well.

If you rely exclusively on a single leader, you're in a very fragile situation. Shells need strong leadership, but there is simply too much involved for a single person to handle all of it. Usually, when someone tries, sooner or later they'll suffer some form of burnout, and need a break. Without the person who was making all the decisions, the shell the struggles.

Sky can make you a decent weekly paycheck if you have a bit of luck and pop a decent amount of pops. Also exactly what events are you acquiring about? Limbus, HNM, pop nm? If you talking about dynamis or limbus there is possibility that you can do them and still have a sky shell. A lot of people today have multiple pearls. 1 for sky, 1 for limbus, 1 for sea, 1 for salavge ect. ect.. To try to spread yourself so thin, to do "everything in 1" is difficult and sometime impossible to do for some groups. Plus would you really want to see 20 groups up in the aery. Most are already complaining about the sever transfer shells coming up to the aery. Long story short for some a all in 1 shell works. For other multiple shells, with different views work.

Question be would you quit you hnm shell once they equipped you? No shell can please everyone and there would be a point when you would get bored, what is your moral boundaries.

 

[Lavi]

A few separate points there.

A Sky Shell that is only ever going to do Sky is destined to have a turnover of people. There simply isn't very much a shell with only a single event can offer someone when they have all they need from that event, unless that event also produces gil (which of course everyone needs). Sky really doesn't make gil. Shells that have a variety of events can offer people credit in those other events for people to do events that they are finished with. There is so much to endgame, and chances are, if someone is finished with one event, they still want gear from something else. Give them the chance to work towards it, and they'll keep coming.

Sky is four year old content. There is only so long people are going to be happy with doing just that, and Shells should be doing Sky exclusively for a very short time only. Shells are probably never completely finished with Sky, but theres no reason that even within a couple of months of starting, that any shell can't be doing other events as well.

If you rely exclusively on a single leader, you're in a very fragile situation. Shells need strong leadership, but there is simply too much involved for a single person to handle all of it. Usually, when someone tries, sooner or later they'll suffer some form of burnout, and need a break. Without the person who was making all the decisions, the shell the struggles.

If I look at the current shells running now, about 1-2 are the same shells that were farming sky back when I did sky. I am willing to bet anything that if players had stuck around longer than it took to recieve their gear and helped others, many of those shells that had died would be around today doing new activities. Players that continually leave LS once they are completed on one set of gear are a drain on everyone; the shell, the leader(s), and the members. They force the older members to continue a process they all had hoped would eventually end. Even if you're successfully able to do a second or third event, the fact you're still finishing sky for players that weren't around when you first started is mind numbingly painful. And of course, you have to finish sky for everyone because if you don't, those players will just leave. I mean how long can someone do an event before they are completely sick of it?

 

[Strid]

This issue here is not everyone has the time to do everything nor can you please everyones wants.

I also never said it was for -everybody-.

 

[Courtney]

If I look at the current shells running now, about 1-2 are the same shells that were farming sky back when I did sky. I am willing to bet anything that if players had stuck around longer than it took to recieve their gear and helped others, many of those shells that had died would be around today doing new activities. Players that continually leave LS once they are completed on one set of gear are a drain on everyone; the shell, the leader(s), and the members. They force the older members to continue a process they all had hoped would eventually end. Even if you're successfully able to do a second or third event, the fact you're still finishing sky for players that weren't around when you first started is mind numbingly painful. And of course, you have to finish sky for everyone because if you don't, those players will just leave. I mean how long can someone do an event before they are completely sick of it?

We started "other" events within a month or so of starting sky. Einherjar is a simple, schedulable LS event that isn't time consuming. Salvage, Limbus and Nyzul, likewise, and they have the added advantage of being able to be done with a small group. KS99, Ouryu, Bahamut are single alliance fights that an endgame shell can do, and have nice rewards. Sea farming is very similar to Sky farming in the player involvement required. There is no mythical level of gear thats required before a Shell can do something other than Sky.

If a Shell is waiting until they finish Sky before they start something else, then they will never get there. And if players in a Shell see that they'll never be doing anything but Sky, they won't stay.

 

[hellstorm]

We started "other" events within a month or so of starting sky. Einherjar is a simple, schedulable LS event that isn't time consuming. Salvage, Limbus and Nyzul, likewise, and they have the added advantage of being able to be done with a small group. KS99, Ouryu, Bahamut are single alliance fights that an endgame shell can do, and have nice rewards. Sea farming is very similar to Sky farming in the player involvement required. There is no mythical level of gear thats required before a Shell can do something other than Sky.

If a Shell is waiting until they finish Sky before they start something else, then they will never get there. And if players in a Shell see that they'll never be doing anything but Sky, they won't stay.

Now this I would agree with. Yet the issue is time. My guess is you most like don't do limbus twice a week? I would also guess that you don't do sky once or twice a week, nor sea. For some they would like to do these events on a weekly basis. The way that you work may not work for someone else. I do agree though that if a person join a shell that does only sky or only limbus there is a point where they will leave to do some other event, but the question is when is it right to leave? The sky shell I'm in has been broke and remade 4 times (with 1 merger) I have been there pretty much from day 1 and seem many people come and go. However the one's that are most disheartening are the ones that get there gear and are never heard from again. No, hey I have completed my goals and am going to be quiting sky in couple weeks, or anything. Half the time you have to track the people down to see that they left. If you going to quit the least you can do is say hey I'm quitting. There a person that posted on this very topic that left my shell yet he at least had the courtesy of saying so, and for that I give respect. As a leader I hate to see people leave, but as a player I can understand that sky can get in the way of goals if have limited play time.

 

[Myrid]

It's time to leave an endgame shell when you're no longer having fun; or when the fun is overshadowed by negative events; or when real life beckons.

Leave when you have the gear you want? Or when you no longer feel obligated to stay? Sure, but that says something about your reasons for being there in the first place.

Saying to yourself "I'm only sticking around for my friends" only goes so far.

 

[Courtney]

Now this I would agree with this. Yet the issue is time. My guess is you most like don't do limbus twice a week? I would also guess that you don't do sky once or twice a week, nor sea. For some they would like to do these events on a weekly basis. The way that you work may not work for someone else. I do agree though that if a person join a shell that does only sky or only limbus there is a point where they will leave to do some other event, but the question is when is it right to leave? The sky shell I'm in has been broke and remade 4 times (with 1 merger) I have been there pretty much from day 1 and seem many people come and go. However the one's that are most disheartening are the ones that get there gear and are never heard from again. No, hey I have completed my goals and am going to be quiting sky in couple weeks, or anything. Half the time you have to track the people down to see that they left. If you going to quit the least you can do is say hey I'm quitting. There a person that posted on this very topic that left my shell yet he at least had the courtesy of saying so, and for that I give respect. As a leader I hate to see people leave, but as a player I can understand that sky can get in the way of goals if have limited play time.

The LS does 2 Limbus, 4 Salvage, 2 Dynamis, Sky/Sea farming, as well as anywhere from 5-15 HMN camps and a major event, each week. There's probably noone that does every event though. You do the events you can attend, and the events that you are particularly interested in, and even if you don't need gear from say Sky, attending helps you get closer to the gear you do want from other areas.

 

[hellstorm]

Very nice pretty much full week for your coordinator(s). At one time SereneEternity was like that with exception with the dynamis part, but it hard getting people to show for hnms(mainly mages). Now with Serapis we just do sky, limbus, and salvage 2 times a week and merge shells for sea. Each ran independently. Now that not to say your system doesn't work in fact seems to work very well since kaizen is one of the 3 top shells on this server, just don't really work to well for smaller shells.

 

[FleistLoC]

My shell does 3 things at the moment (working on organizing assault as well):

Sky - Mostly for MNK, DRK, WAR, THF, RNG/COR, and 1 main thing for BLMs.
Limbus - Nashira for SMNs, RDMs, and meh for BLM. Homam for PLD, DRK, BLU, & THF.
Dynamis - Gear for all except the newer jobs.

Now, granted we're not the best example of a top tier HNM LS, nor do we ever wish to be. However what we do, we do well. It is an LS that focuses on "instanced battle" end-game events that rewards all jobs based on a variety of choices.

As others have posted above, sky is generally focused specific jobs, where melee especially benefit from a number of drops whereas mages get the shaft. It's only natural for a sky-only LS to see a revolving door of players and high member turn-around.

If I were BLM, I sure wouldn't want to go to sky for one item on my hands, when I can get yigit feet with 6 people, couple of cool rings, farm for a genie wesket through KSBC or BCNM, etc. It wouldn't be worth my time to see 18 people get 5 gagillion things from sky where I would only look forward to getting 1. I think there's a severe inequality there.

 

[jyakotsu]

so true fleist, BLM got the major shaft in sky. I realized that after seeing myself get blm hands.... then wondering "um... what else?"

Most career blms make a very short stint in sky, its sad but in all honesty there isn't much for them up there unless they have another job.

 

[Phraust]

The answer to this question is about as simple as this: How do you know when you're in love with your girlfriend or boyfriend?

The answer is simple: You'll just know.

At the point where you really either no longer enjoy the stimulus of a particular event, or the people that participate in said event, the answer will become clear.


There are times when people get thier W.Legs and had been working for months and once they get em, they realize that it was thier only motivation for staying. Nothing particularly personal, but after doing more of the same shit that they'd waded through for several months, people start to see "the end".

Then there are some people that get all their shit and stick around because training new people, and doing the fights is still and forever will be fun. And will stick around untill they die of toxic shock from never leaving their computer to pee...

Either way neither person is 'more right', its just a matter of tollerances. I am not working as a cashier for a bakery anymore, I moved on. That job wasn't stimulating for me, and the people were great.

Any game is about trying new things and exploring new possibilities. People will get bored if you do the same things over and over again. It's not the fault of the leadership or anyone or even the game, in short it is all subjective, and situational.

 

[Elemmire]

I had the belief that you stick with that shell until it breaks up, the drama gets WAY too insane, the leadership begins to fail to be fair, and/or you just are tired of endgame I got sick of HNM and sky so I left NH (and never did HNM/Sky again unless I was asked to by friends because they needed a RDM). I started a Dynamis shell which Cythe took over (I was always one for screwing around which pissed off people that wanted gearz nowz! instead of exploring fun that and he was more likely to punish where I was ultimately too nice to punish those who needed it) and brought real success to. I stayed loyal to it until I ultimately quit.

I think it's a personal thing, but I guess in the end you should stay loyal to the shell until it becomes either too much of a hassle (as in too much drama/unfairness taking the fun outta the game or times are just not good really should they switch) or until you decide to end your gaming in that aspect of the game. It's not really fair to get gear and ditch.. you should help those people who helped you get the gear. However if no none of those people remain then I guess you really shouldn't feel obligated to stay.

I hope all that made sense XD

 

[Mishaela]

When Myrrh joins, it's time to go.

 

[Bajaratt]

When Myrrh joins, it's time to go.

Agreed.

 

[Palides]

When people start accusing you of screwing their girlfriends. =o

 

[Jojojo]

The answer to this question is about as simple as this: How do you know when you're in love with your girlfriend or boyfriend?

I don't know what's funnier, that a FFXI player might have a girlfriend or that there are girls on the internet.

 

[Necrosis]

so true fleist, BLM got the major shaft in sky. I realized that after seeing myself get blm hands.... then wondering "um... what else?"

Most career blms make a very short stint in sky, its sad but in all honesty there isn't much for them up there unless they have another job.

Who doesn't have multiple 75s in this day and age?

 

[Phraust]

Who doesn't have multiple 75s in this day and age?

Your mom?