Why Summoners = Main healers.

It's the same as expecting a war to have DD equipment/food and tanking equipment/food. If the situation calls for you to heal then please do and if the situation allows you to Bloodpact then right on. My 2 gil.
 
It always amazes me how sometimes, an entire debate can be summed up in a sentence or two. Kurgon, I believee you just hit the nail on the head with that.

Of course, now we get to debate on when it is a good idea to BP and when it isn't... >.>
 
A war can tank tho, if not well as pld or ninja they can get by.

As a smn you shouldn't be ready in "case you are expected to heal". I used to be angry when I wasn't told I was main healer around level 40's until a friend bluntly pointed out, you don't have to tell a whm that he/she is main healer. My pt invites were bad enough, in comparision to samurai,war,whm,blm,rdn, mnk it was pretty horrible. It's a little better now at lower levels but it's still pretty bad 60+. Almost every pt I got invited to I only got the invite BECAUSE I could heal. They see the buffs and BP as a perk not a want or need. You know, like a whm being able to slow, para, silence, haste and stuff as additional perks to being able to heal.

Smn need to start expecting to heal and just be prepared to buff and summon if the party permits it.. I've noticed this myself now that I'm not playing smn and oberserving the smn in my pt. Most of them summon up, tell their avatars to attack, and sit there. I've had to constantly tell most of them to heal, or end up healing myself. Doing so they've brought nothing worthwhile to the pt because I could of gotten a bard or a drk if I waned pure buffs or damage and main healed myself, thank you. Was then I realized how people felt back when I was doing the same.
 
I’ve read Firestreak post several times now, and for some reason it is very confusing as to what he is trying to say. It almost reads as if SMN sucks at everything, so they might as well just be healers.

I was happy he included some math in there though!
 
Only one who can speak for this better than me is probably more experienced SMNs.. =P

But by 20+, you should know what you're good for in every party. Not every SMN subs /whm. Some SMN /blm so their BPs do more and they can do offensive spells in battles...but, yeh. vs some mobs, I know BPs are virtually useless, so I'll gladly backup (or, perhaps, mainly) heal, but SMN certainly isn't "only good for healing".

Also, Fenrir only has bad accuracy at low levels...Ecliptic Howl + the Avatar ACC+ AF, and he does more than DRKs in most cases..
 
Mishaela said:
Only one who can speak for this better than me is probably more experienced SMNs.. =P

That's me.

99% of all non idiotic noob smn sub whm. Blm does nothing whatsoever to help you. Healing knows no levels, however blm spells do. Even if you made any use of your blm sub your damage would be pathetic, and the BP and avatars would be just as strong as with whm sub. Also, don't expect to get many pt invites or get any really good pt's. If you do, please give your pt a polite thanks of making so much xp with 5 people.

Smn/whm seems to be like one of those classes.... like pld/war where multiple subs is not a choice. Smn have only a few spells, ele are useless and avatars are extremly limited in use. Setting aside damage (which is pathetic) and look at BP, you can only do anything every min. They depend heavily on their sub to allow them to do more, and whm is the only sub where you really don't get screwed over for subbing it vs maining it. Just about all you lose is higher level spells which are nice, but as most of you love to say you're not whm. >.>

EDIT: Fenrir isn't as good as anyone thinks btw... and he only does as much damage as drk with eclipse bite, which he can only do every min and while wasting mp to boot, while also coming no where near DOT Drk has.
 
Firstly, I'd like to say, if I'm bein' redundant here, I'm truly sorry. Trying to watch this thread and I have a major project today here at home.

Anywayyyy,

Smn "can" be a main healer, but you won't get half the things you get with a whm.

You'll never have Altepa, Yhoater or Vahzl and you won't get Dem, Holla or Mea til the Smn is level 72. You won't ever have R2 or 3. You won't have half your bar spells. You won't have Haste, Regen II (I don't believe) or III. You'll never have Cure IV (I don't believe) or Cure V. You'll never have Protrectra III and IV or Shellra III and IV. You'll never have Curaga's II-IV (I don't think you get II). I honestly can't remember what level they are, but I believe (and I will check later), you won't have Stona.

Fire, you did great job researching and you're definitely better prepared in your argument than me. I know Smn's do make nice main healers in a pinch, but if it came down to it, I'd take a Rdm over a Smn for a main healer any day. And I'm not boasting, but a good whm is irreplacable. We can have a generic version of us in a pinch, but imho we are the best healer for a party.
 
You don't get strong hate holding, high hp, curing with a ninja tank either, doesn't make them crappy tanks.


Kat, most of those spells are useless to the point of healing. It would be nice if a whm poped out of no where every time you wanted to xp. Not to mention about 90% of the things you just said rdm don't get either... Smn completly own rdm as main healers, sorry. Cure 3 is really the norm healing spell and smn do learn it, cure 4 gets a good amount of hate and is used mostly when hp drops low, and as there is always a rdm or bard in pt when it matters most, they can help pick up slack for lack of cure 4 in dire situations. Cure 5 is rarly used in my experience during actual combat.

Smn also cure curaga 2, and they get curaga 1-3 in the form of their avatars, which I might add curaga 2 is also AOE erase, tho it doesn't extend as far as the actual spell. I'd take a smn over a rdm EVERYDAY, not anyday, worse that it seems 90% of all rdm are elvaan. >.>

Sometimes tough you got to deal with it, as much as I hate it I find myself pting with whm more often not then yes, and my pt's are great. Cubswoo (sp?) was our smn last night and we were doing great, he didn't even have to heal tho... lol ninja tank ;)

So, saying this politly kat, your point is moot. Smn can easily compare to whm except for a few key differences, because of course every class has to be unique. I'm happy if I have a whm on hand but I really don't hope for them to have to cast raise at all, and getting a tele when your pt has no whm is simple and basic.

Over smn, whm get raise 3 and 2, cure 4 and 5, tele, stronger barspells (only because they actually get enhancing spells unlike smn), reraise 2 and 3, and regen 2 and 3. Not that much if you ask me... Smn make great main healers, and do as good or even better then whm at times.

So it's not that smn "can" be main healers....

Most of you guys are stating how they are not main healers, tell then please, which no one has done, what the hell it is exactly that they can do. And pleae, if you say summon and buff I will kill you. That's like telling a whm "Hey, don't heal. Just buff us with haste, keep silence and dia on the mob, then start spamming that holy"
 
A few friends of mine made this thread apparent to me and I had to add in some input of my own.

First off, thanks to Sethala, I'm the SMN in her party that acts as main healer. Always good to hear that I'm doing a fine job... =)

But I am a Summoner and I'm currently level 59 and I have used all the Avatars at my disposal throughout my career. I've experimented with all of my Blood Pacts and found which ones were best for which situations.

Blood Pacts are all useful when used in specific situations. In the jungles around Kazham, I completely advocate using Frost Armor. At a time when Group Blink is fairly useless, this spell does a number of impressive things against Mandies. First, the spell lasts about 90 seconds. A mandy attacks about 2 times every 4 seconds. Now, let's be generous and say that Mandy always hits; doing damage of about 3-5 per strike (average of 4 let's say), that same Mandy can take up to 180 damage over the course of the Blood Pact (I've found the average to be around 120 when you take misses and the next factor into account). And this isn't even the most useful part of the Pact, it also has the chance of paralyzing the mob; this is assuming that you've been leveling your Summoning Skill. That's impressive effectiveness for 1 ability at that level. Frost Armor, use against mobs that attack 2 or more times, weak against Cold, can paralyze.

Rolling Thunder, an enthunder for everyone in the party. Again, use only against mobs weak against lightning. Most parties have 4 melees in them. And those parties that I have been in have at least 2 members that either have NIN subbed, been a MNK, or had Double Attack from being a WAR. Against cralwers in the nest, with an additional 5-8 damage a strike, with so many melees attacking so many times. that damage can add up fast over the course of 1 minute. Yes it may not be as useful when you have a SAM, PLD and a DRK in the group, but THF's with daggers, RNG's with knives, NIN's with katanas and Dual Wield II, MNK's with their fists, all attack with speed and fair amount of precision. When each strike does an extra 5-8 with each blow, the crawler will go down faster allowing greater XP chains. Rolling Thunder, best for melees that attack multiple times in quick succession, use against weak to lightning mobs, also great against mobs with no AoE because you can have the RDM and healer along the sides whacking away as well.

The defensive buffs, you state how Ariel Armor is only about 3 blinks for your tank and that's it. Well, it is, but some of these Blood Pacts, Ariel Armor and later Earthen Ward, are more for the rest of the party. Even the best of tanks lose aggro to a BLM MB every once in a while. You may have a SAM pulling without the benefit of a NIN to Utsesemi with. The DRK may be using Last Resort and Souleater. The RNG may be whipping out his bow once to often. I may have overdone it with the Cure III's to heal up the party from that last Gobbie Bomb. In any case, someone other than the PLD or NIN may get attacked, and they as sure as hell want something to soak up the hits other than their HP.

The same thing goes for Earthen Ward. Gobbie Bombs, Fly Darkbursts, Banishaga III, Dia II, Crab bubble showers, even DRK Souleater, are all absorbed by the Earthen Ward first. The tank may go through it fast, but everyone else has that added cushion of about 200 damage to shield them from whatever AOE gets tossed out by the mob. This is a must when dealing with gobs even at my level of 60. Some may say that a Curaga will do just as much to keep the party out of the red, but Earthen Ward doesn't pull any aggro and is, when you take in the above, a phenomenal preventive measure.

Now, I am main healer and I still manage to get off a Blood Pact off every 54 seconds. The RDM knows they may need to throw a Cure in there when she sees me run up to the party to pop on an Ecliptic Growl, another Earthen Ward, or maybe even a Crimson Howl to make that upcoming SC the strongest it's ever been. It makes the party more effective and helps the battles run smoother and faster.

And this is the defensive side of it. I can skillchain if needed. Fenrir is my best Distortion opener and Shiva is my best Distortion closer. I even have a macro to let the THF and BLM know the time is coming. I know my Skillchain tables so if we need a Fusion or a Fragmentation, I know what I need to do.

The point I'm trying to make is, yes we are great Main Healers, we can do the job extremely well. But if you're a real Summoner and you know the in's and out's of your job, we can do so much more. We add that extra edge, do that last burst of damage, make those Indurations possible, give that bit of protection to help the party survive and get those Chain 5's, 6's, 7's. Heck, I'm hearin' we can get up to the 20's once we hit 70th level.

I love this job. I love this game. And most importantly, I have fun while I play it. Hopefully everyone can do the same.

-Spellbind

PS : Oh, and if you do melee with your Avatars (and yes, I do this often), here are a few pointers.

First off, get yourself the Elemental Staves appropriate for your Avatar and an Austere Robe. This can chop off 3-5 MP off of your perpetuation cost right there. Add in a RDM and refresh and you can have Ifrit out for free.

Wear your Evoker's Spats, this will help your Avatars hit more often, especially that sad, glasses needing bastard Titan. Even so, they'll only do damage that's a little better than the PLD (mine do about 20 a hit, Shiva and Ramuh a bit less, Ifrit ad Fenrir a bit more). But THF's do worse damage until you take their SATA into account and they can only do that once a minute. Blood Pacts work the same way, go figure...

As I've said before, use your Blood Pact's effectively, Skillchain at the start of the battle, toss in something else in the middle, and end with a spell (hopefully to MB). For example, follow the meditatiing SAM's Tachi: Enpi with a Double Slap to distort with. Pop in an axe kick halfway through the battle to do an extra 100 damage, and end with a Blizzard II to use up all of the TP Shiva has gained in the battle. At my level, I do about 225 damage with my Level II spells with 0% TP. If I've been fighting with her for 2 minutes (usually how long a battle is), she can have upwards of 150%-200% TP, this makes for a 300 damage Blizzard II. Magic Burst it and you can do closer to 400 damage. If you have the right equips and know your job well enough, you can get through the whole battle with only spending 300 MP. That's not too bad.

While you may want to melee with Fenrir, note that he doesn't have any Blood Pacts that can Magic Burst other than his 2-Hour. That's alot of TP going to waste. Some argue that his Blood Pacts will allow him to hit more often and be more useful and that is a good point, but it's all personal preference. In the end, it's all about maximum effectiveness of our abilities and, more over, personal preference. The BLM may be able to do more damage, but he's now dead because he pulled aggro. The SAM may be able to SC more often, but he may need someone to Gravitate with right after he meditates.

And this should only be done if you aren't main healer or if you're NIN blink tank is just that damn good. Know your job, keep yourself equipped, do your best. The same can be said for all jobs, really.

Good luck y'all! Have fun out there...

My god this is a long post...
 
You Rock Spell!!! Nice job!!!!
 
Firestreak said:
Should SMN be turned into a blood pact casting machine through updates? I guess.

They weren't before... they -can- add things to a pt by using offensive pacts here and there (fill in a skillchain gap? hope for some extra filler dmg? magic burst?) I really can't guage the usefulness of these new additions since by the time they were added I was level 70 and already at the point where my BP were worth using...

So yeah now don't think by inviting a SMN 70+ you're getting a main healer... for one I -can- help heal while I do my job no problem, and still spam a blood pact every minute for 800-1600 dmg. I'd say its very worth it to use the lvl 70 pacts as an opener to a fight... since the hate table is still pretty low your avatar will surely pull hate. Why should I waste 100 mp to stoneskin your PLD ass when it's just gonna drop in 2 hits? AOE? Big deal, its not hard to heal from most of the AOEs near endgame xp mobs. That dmg not only takes off a nice 20% of the mob's HP (giving your pt a headstart) but it also absorbs several hits of damage from the pld, meaning less healing needed.

I absolutely hate it when people invite me only thinking I'm a healer now... and I almost cracked up when I got invited by some lowbies to do M5-2 as a MAIN HEALER ONLY...I can frickin solo the shadow lord in a couple pacts. -_-

It's not a selfish thing though. I do it because I -know- it's a bigger help to the pt than giving stoneskin every minute... Stoneskin is a real waste of MP after 70... so is Aerial Armor except to protect the mages in case of stray aggro... it happens... I give the back row some support but rarely have they needed it. I also give Fenrir buffs... but only on rare occasions. Why? His buffs are not that impressive, if you'd do some searching on what exactly his pacts give and how they work... you'd see why I stopped making him a big deal. But his buffs are pretty cool on full moon... nothing like +7 str/vit/dex... that's better than pretty much 95% of the armor out there that gives stat boosts. But on other moons it's barely worth the time... same for the acc/eva boost... the numbers it gives pale in comparison to BRD songs.
 
You stated most PT have 4 melees in them, but how could any SMN PT has 4 melees and the SMN not be a main healer? SMN WHM and no brd or RDM? I agree with the proper level 50+ gear Avatar melee is a bit more sensible, but to be honest I've never seen a high levle SMN let their avatar melee in an xp pt. I've only seen low level do it(note: usually carbuncle) and burn out of MP extremely quickly.
As admitted SMN lack many spells that WHM have. They also have an extremely high amount of MP and built in autorefresh that stacks with ballad, refresh, drinks ext. And as I stated earlier and was stated again, they can cure all status cures they don't get with leviathan. To say WHMs are always the best healers is just plainly ignorant. I love WHM but when I'm with a good Ninja all I do is spam haste. I enjoy playing Paladin, and many times it is the best tank for the situation, but sometims ninja is good too. It's not always the most efficient to have a PLD where a NIN should be, but I don't come to the conclusion that I'm not a tank as a result.
WHM is capable of doing things beyond just curing. But that's not meaning that cure isn't their top priority. Nobody wants to be hasted but dead. Just the same no one wants rolling thunder on their corpse.
In terms of just dumping as much MP into a person getting pummeled I don't see where SMN fails.. Cure 4 is a joke I must say, as WHM I never use it. Cure 5 is great but I only use it to try to become more MP efficient. SMN on the other hand just plainly has more MP, and refresh. Most of the bloodpacts that are any good require fenrir or level 60+, most of the SMNs that refuse to heal are low level and with just a few avatars.
The point is cure and use whatever spare MP you have to blood pact. If you don't wind up having any, then if you were using blood pacts there's a pretty safe assumption out there people would be dead, or simply the chain would have to stop.
 
Firestreak said:
To say WHMs are always the best healers is just plainly ignorant.

NOTE: I will keep adding to this post as I read through the Thread.

WHM is always the most effective healer, simple because they are built to do nothing but it. The key thing people often forget is the job of Main Healer does include more than Cure Spells. As an RDM41/WHM20 I do not have access to Protectra II, which means I have to burn a lot more MP casting it on each person or the party has to suffer with only Protracta I on mages and Protect II on just the melees, both of which bring down the EXP per hour rate and has ineffective side affects. As well WHM gets haste before the RDM, and with Refresh already consuming a lot of the RDMs casting time, haste is still best left to a WHM, because every job can benefit from it when it is used properly.

Now WHM being the most effective does not mean it is the only person who can be Primary Healer. I have been primary healer as a BLM/WHM before, as well I know other BLM have been stuck in this job. It is the far less effective role of the BLM, but it can be done. I have even seen a PLD/WAR as main healer to a NIN tank.

One last note, when judging job effectiveness, you cannot simple pick a level and go with it. You must look at the whole leveling range of 30 to 70, how much MP does each class have, what spells they have, what there subs give them. It is a lot of work. The reason I leave out 10 to 29 is because theses are the newbie levels where you can get away with just about anything. 70 to 75 are the end game levels at which time the same rules no longer apply.

Comparing SMN damage output to BLM damage is not a fare analysis. BLM is a Mass Damage Dealer; SMN is Damage over time (DoT). It would be better compared to DRG or THF.

It is impossible to create the absolute most effective party simple because you are only allowed 6 members and each job brings something different to the table. So any time you have to sacrifice one job for the abilities of another job, you are going to loose out on something.

A 4+ Melee party tends to be very ineffective simple because it is basing its EXP on Mass Damage Output. All it takes is one person in the party to get hit by extreme damage to break an EXP Chain and risk someone’s Death a 3 Melee, 3 Mage party is a more effective setup and safer, but will limit the amount of chains you are going to get.
 
Firestreak said:
You stated most PT have 4 melees in them, but how could any SMN PT has 4 melees and the SMN not be a main healer? SMN WHM and no brd or RDM? I agree with the proper level 50+ gear Avatar melee is a bit more sensible, but to be honest I've never seen a high levle SMN let their avatar melee in an xp pt. I've only seen low level do it(note: usually carbuncle) and burn out of MP extremely quickly.

If you read my post, you will also see how I state that I am typically the main healer in my party. I'm not saying that Summoner's should ignore that role, I am saying that we are capable of much more than that. We can be main healer and still accomplish more beyond. 4 melees, a SMN and a bard in the nest below 41 and 4 melees, a SMN and a RDM beyond that point.

That's typically my party setup and I still can main heal AND use a Blood Pact every 54 seconds AND still have enough MP to go to that XP Chain 5.

As far as never you never seeing a high level SMN leva an Avatar out to melee, I think Svina upstairs put it best when she stated that she can solo the Shadow Lord in a couple of pacts. I think it's safe to say that she doesn't summon, use a Blood Pact and then release her Avatar and solo the boss on her own. That Titan is by her side holding aggro while waiting to unleash another Mountain Buster.

I know a few in their 60's that also leave out their Avatars to XP while waiting to get the TP up to Magic Burst with. They did the same thing when they could Magic Burst with their Level II spells. With these new spells, we can start that cycle again with a much more impressive damage range.

And for the rest of what Svina says, I can see why other Blood Pacts would fall by the wayside after 70, but t o know that Fenrir's +ACC / + EVA Growl isn't all that worth it, kinda sucks. I love that Blood Pact. I was told it does up to +30 to either depending on the moon phase. Is there a better Bard song? Or is the increase not as much as what I believe?

-Spellbind
 
Pascal said:
A 4+ Melee party tends to be very ineffective simple because it is basing its EXP on Mass Damage Output. All it takes is one person in the party to get hit by extreme damage to break an EXP Chain and risk someone’s Death a 3 Melee, 3 Mage party is a more effective setup and safer, but will limit the amount of chains you are going to get.

I just wanted to add a quick note.

When I say 4 melee and 2 mage and you say 3 mage and 3 melee, this can mean that one of those Melee or Mages act as a heavy damage dealer and are therefore interchangable.

For example where I have a melee be a DRK or a RNG and you have a mage being a BLM, they occupy the same role as a Damage Dealer but are in different classes. You still have the same risk of a Death in either party or the same level of relative safety.

I'm assuming if you state that you believe one to be safer than the other, than you have all 3 mages as healers or buffers in some capacity. This is true and I would concede that, but I find that a SMN and RDM along with a PLD that can heal himself or a NIN that doesn't need much healing to begin with is healing and safety enough. Personal preference though. It doesn't mean one is better than the other. Diefferent things work for different people.

-Spellbind
 
Simply I mean melee as melee. You said 4 melee hence 4 people gaining effectiveness from rolling thunder. BLM doesn't get anything from rolling thunder.

If you are a main healer and can use your bloodpacts constantly without running out of chain, good. That just shows my point that SMNs are good main healers. My only complaint is people who refuse to main heal because they won't have enough MPs to do Blood Pacts which they enjoy to do more. This is obviously not you so we are in agreement.
 
look, smn's, especially with fenrir are beatsticks.... period. no more. he hits as hard as your melees and the bloodpacts are PHENOMINAL party support... smn should never be wearing mnd + gear when they could be wearing MP +.
actually, let me just say this so you can move your brain past the dunes.

THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR A WHM. NOT EVER.
SMN should supporting, damage dealing.

RDM should NEVER be confined to a main healing role. they were MADE to enfeeble and at a later point refresh.

AND FOR THE REST OF THE GODDAMN NEWBIES OUT THERE A WHM SUB IS NEVER a main healer. not ever.



So, what you're saying, is that a every party in existance has to have a WHM. WHM's can be useful, but other jobs CAN main heal.

SMN/WHM: Most MP of all jobs, plus Auto-Refresh and MP Bonus Job Traits. Can also have Carby out for Emergency Cures (Healing Ruby, Healing Ruby II, and Glittering Ruby for Protectra/Shellra, although I'm not sure how effective Glittering Ruby is). SMN's also get nice AoE buffs to reduce damage taken (and do other things), such as Aerial Armor (Blinkga) and Earthen Ward (Stoneskinega). Fenrir has probably the best buffs in the game, such as Ecliptic Growl (Increases ALL of your party members stats), and Ecliptic Howl (Accuracy and Evade up for Party members).
SMN without Fenrir = Great job that can buff/debuff, heal, and deal a bit of damage (every bit helps, and they'll deal more than WHM.)
SMN with Fenrir: Can heal, deal great damage (Eclipse Bite), and buff even better.

RDM/WHM: The least MP, but Refresh and Convert can make it last nearly forever. RDM/WHM can debuff the mob, heal, and buff the party with Refresh. They gain more cures than a SMN/WHM would (Cure IV), although they still have less curing power in an emergency situation. However, if things look grim and the party begins falling (especially with a PLD tank), Chainspell + Raise can turn things around (Chainspell + Raise, PLD Invincible, and everyone kick the mobs ***). Also, RDM can Sleep/Gravity mobs to help out a situation. /WHM gives Divine Seal and some -na spells which help healing, /BLM gives Elemental Seal for helping debuffs and slightly more INT (which effects debuffs slightly). I would rather have a RDM/WHM than a WHM/--- anyday, for the extra support abilities (with a few exceptions). Also, RDM gets Dispel, which can help a great deal on self-buffing mobs.



From my knowledge, the only reason to invite a WHM at higher levels instead of another job for healer is Raise II/III, and possible Erase/Stona/Other -na depending on what mob you're fighting. If WHM was the only job that could main heal, I would've quit this game a while ago in frusteration.
 
if there's no whm but a smn seeking... asking the smn if he can be the "main healer". so in turn... FUCKING HEAL and stop crying you fucking pansy.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA~
 
By the logic that summoners can main heal, that also means that Black Magics can also main heal.


Summoners are Summoners.
Black Mages are Black Mages.
White Mages are White Mages.


END OF STORY!
 
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