Why Summoners = Main healers.

[Firestreak]

Kipsy you are very closed minded and just ignoring actual arguments and logic showed on this thread. A BLM >can< main heal yes. But doesn't have any Max MP Bonus traits or refresh MP traits. As wel none of the BLM skills are suited towards supporting a healing role, while many avatar blood pacts are. Why don't you just say a Sam/Whm can be main healer? All of the Actual 70+ SMNs have accepted what their job is at the earlier levels. Why don't I just say I'm a "Black" mage so I should only use dark magic?

 

[Spellbind]

Kipsy you are very closed minded and just ignoring actual arguments and logic showed on this thread. A BLM >can< main heal yes. But doesn't have any Max MP Bonus traits or refresh MP traits. As wel none of the BLM skills are suited towards supporting a healing role, while many avatar blood pacts are. Why don't you just say a Sam/Whm can be main healer? All of the Actual 70+ SMNs have accepted what their job is at the earlier levels. Why don't I just say I'm a "Black" mage so I should only use dark magic?

But by that logic Firestreak,

You can say that a taru BLM / WHM with a Vermillion Cloak is a better choice for a healer than a Galka SMN / WHM. Kipsy is right, taken as just their jobs, a Summoner is a Summoner and a White Mage is a White Mage. To define a class just by their subjob is missing the point of being that class in the first place.

Most players don't really understand certain classes as they have difficulty seeing the apparent effect that that classes' abilities on their own characters. Everyone accepts WHM as they can understand that having their HP in the yellow is a bad thing and a WHM can change that. Everyone accepts Black Mages because they see the 200+ damage nukes every once in a while.

Some classes are a bit more advanced and take a bit more practice to get used to. Alot of people aren't quite sure what use a SAM has in a party until they begin to see the merits of a good skill chain and that SAM's ability to create skill chain with speed and ease. NIN had the same predjudice when they were initially created until people began to see how useful some of their abilities could be when used in certain ways and situations.

And then there are the unlucky classes that have a wide range of abilities and uses, but everyone ignores them largely except for one spell that gives their own character a particular advantage. Most people just view RDM's as backup healers more useful for Refresh than anything else. I've seen what they can do and I now view them as outstanding debuffers AND even secondary Skill Chainers.

SMN's suffer the same problems. Alot of people don't know what we can do. Alot of Summoners aren't even sure what we can do. Most people believe a SMN should be like we were back in the other FF games. Mass damage dealers and nothing else. I think the level 70+ Blood Pacts were added to appease this crowd.

But we're not gods, we're a very balanced class. All of the classes in Final Fantasy Online are very balanced classes. We can do so much with the abilities we are given, we just have to learn how to use each to it's upmost and how we can strive to make our charcters better. It's up to us, baby...

-Spellbind

 

[Firestreak]

I'm not questioning that Summoners are failing to be summoners. I'm statubg that they are still main healers. If you can do blood pacts while curing, then that makes you very effective. If you happen to be in a PT that requires intensive curing and you can't use many bloodpacts, don't simply refuse to main heal and force for xample the RDM to do it so you can use blood pacts. Or simply refuse to heal at all.

BLM/WHM versus a SMN/WHM as healing. Well you've got less MPs, no refresh, and missing many avatar blood pacts that can be useful for the job of healing and support.
On the other hand they CAN do it. I've done it. I never felt like I was holding back the PT or chaining was impossible due to me being the healer. So yes, I guess now that I think about it BLM/WHM can be a main healer. Come to think of it I MBed too a few times. However a SMN is certainly more effective, and as a BLM I'm more effective as a mass damage dealer.

Well you say it's hard for me to look at intangible benefits that SMN has to offer. I'm not saying there's a lot to the SMN class, I'm just saying there's surprisingly little in terms of goals of an XP PT when broken down to the simplest level. Continue the chain, kill the monster. Tank continues the chain by absorbing damage. Healers continue the chain by healing the tank. The tank kills the monster a little by attacking it. The DDs kill the monster by dealing damage. The support continues the chain by refreshing the mages. It all fits into one or the other. All that matters is how many monsters you can kill in a set amount of time. Blood pacts can be useful, but so many SMN use them just for the sake of wanting to use blood pacts every minute.

My example of an MP efficient blood pact: Earthen ward against drain AE undead. If you can save 200 damage on 6 party members, then stop the monster from gaining 1200 total HPs back, you are effectively curing and damaging 1200 points. That's 1200 in both killing the monster and continuing the chain effectively.

Look at all abilities, equipment, traits in the game. They all fall into one or both of those 2 catagories.

Edit: There's also hate management, but that filters into continue of the chain when examined in enough detail.

 

[yanzi]

and this is why JP ppl hate NA in their parties. NA ppl are so egotistical and only care about how much damage they can do, their parsed DoT, etc.

DO WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO IN THE PARTY TO HELP IT

everyone is in the pt to get xp. please, don't be an individualistic ass and gimp your party.
when i play blm/whm i still cast erase, bar spells and help healing. smn/whm can heal and should if that's what the pt needs. otherwise, shut up, leave the pt and continue to LFP.

 

[Kipsy]

and this is why JP ppl hate NA in their parties. NA ppl are so egotistical and only care about how much damage they can do, their parsed DoT, etc.

DO WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO IN THE PARTY TO HELP IT

everyone is in the pt to get xp. please, don't be an individualistic ass and gimp your party.
when i play blm/whm i still cast erase, bar spells and help healing. smn/whm can heal and should if that's what the pt needs. otherwise, shut up, leave the pt and continue to LFP.

You've got it all wrong Yanzi. For 10 levels of BLM I played main healer.

But, IDEALLY Summoners wouldn't have to main heal, neither would BLMs. That is all, it's not closed-minded, it's how it bloody well should be.

 

[Shia]

Asking blm to main heal is like to say to the blm to not nuke. Blm already get hefty loads of hate by their nuke. Adding the role of main heal to them is like to put a banner stating "Kill me!". Most summoners must realise if their cost of Bloodpact mp is worth its effect compared to the cure MP. And you know that its only a handfull of blood pacts that gets usefull. On a proper exp party that is of course. There are times when Smn are invited as skill chain partner, you know when ever you can't find a job to do specific WS. But this is rare. There are times when Summoner is asked to do the role of a Damage dealer. Which of course can happen, obviously this is mostly 70s but there are situations when Summoner acts as a DD during low levels.

The only and I mean only avatar that can be used as a melee buddy is carbuncle. Of course you must have at the very least the carbuncle mittens, apollo staff and possibly vermillion cloak for 1 tick mp increase with him out. Now this is what I say effective additional damage. You are not spending mp to keep your avatars out and can help to gain tp for the avatar to do occational Carby meteor. But as you can see, there are no such item for other summons. Romors say there are Ifrit mittens somewhere but its still not certain. You will still consume some high mp putting other avatars out, yes even fenrir which has the same upkeep as carbuncle but the lack of item similar to carbuncle mittens, you will be wasting mp.

Summoners can be main healer. But of course depends on main healer of what sort of tank. Summoners are superior healer than a whm on nin tank, or war tank with 74+. Since you actually don't need strong heals they can aid with stoneskin and occational heals. Summoners have also cures equivalent to Curga3. Which is healing ruby 2 somewhere around 60ish I believe it was. However, on heavy damage reaceivers such as pld summoners will have problem healing alone. Without aid, they will only be wasting mp just with cures and not be able to do any of their pacts. Hence the heal slave version of summoner is built. My very best friend as a summoner experienced this. Around 60s he was about to quit of the pitifull parties he got invited, doing nothing but cureIII, always being the first to die since rdm or blm refused to help the smn to cure since they stated "its not my job".

Smn shines on being main and sub healers during specific periods of time till reaching their 70s. Honestly if smn does only DD, the leader would replace to a better one. If they melee and with avatar out, again a sane leader will replace him to a true DD who actually do GOOD damage. You can do 300 damage? Good but at the cost of 1min timer. During that 1 min other DDs would surpass your damage. Only true damage can be obtained at 70s. Of course has a chance of missing but still it does good damage. I remember as a monk I invited a smn as a DD. Yes as a DD during the 70s in King ramps tomb where the back line was Smn, Whm, Rdm. As you can see no blm. Since there were no blm I added a smn. And he did well as a damage dealer.

There are smn who reached 70s without static parties. You will soon understand that smn is not what other FF smns are in FFXI. Yes they do have big attacks, but those are not achieved till reaching 70, damage wise at least.

 

[Firestreak]

First Kipsy, we must agree that someone MUST be main healer, which I must confess I'd refuse to tank any party without a main healer. If you are saying that ideally WHM should be the main healer, and let's say I agree with you for the sake of our argument(I don't really agree with you at all). By that logic how does SMN filter into the exp/hour ratio? By killing the monster and continuing the chain, but I've already got a page full of blood pacts showing just how most of them are mainly ineffective. Why don't you just invite a WHM to spam holy or a RDM to nuke?

Why do I only compare to other mage classes? Because SMN TAKES MPS. Melee DDs are the true damage over time. It's perfectuly justifiable to hold SMN to the same standard as BLM. Hell I including all the recast timers for all abilities mentioned. And guess what the recast time was of EVERY SMN ability, ONE MINUTE. How is a 1 minute Bloodpact damage over time? BLMs are the ones who can spam spells if they're crazy enough. Now if you want to compare SMN damage to melees, I'm surprised every Melee on this board isn't down your throat. SMNs do NOT outdamage Dark Knights. And Dark Knights save their TP and they don't require any MP. If I already have my main healer, and I already have an MP refresher, all my PT needs is tanking and damage.

The truth is, by saying WHM is a crappy main healer, you are actually saying SMN is just a shitty class in general. That's how a lot of people tend to think. SMNs don't seem to me to get parties too terribly easy, specially at higher level. But the way I look at it is this:

Both SMN and WHM with proper gears should be able to heal for a party until chain 5 before needing downtime. It won't always be the case for either job. It's usually not the fault of the main healer. Mob killed too slow, tank taking too much damage, ext.
In the case tht the main healer usually have more MP than required(in a good party quite often), there is a wide array of different abilities to use for both jobs. With a small budget, WHM can make more use out of a few spare MPs. With gross amounts of extra MPs, SMJNs can do much more than a WHM could dream of.

By that logic, believe it or not in the "ideal party" SMN wins out as main healer. Cause the "ideal party" is a bunch of crazy bastards with dual wielded kraken clubs and ninjutsu who never take any damage and tear through the monsters like rarabs in sartabutu. So I'm not going to argue any more than SMNs are not main healers in the "ideal PT". If Main healer and MP Regen is already used up I'll take my beloved BLM Thank you very much. I just explained to you why mathematically BLMs kick the crap out of SMN damage. All you SMNs know it. Anyone who's ever played FF knows it. Don't give me your DoT bull when you can only do bloodpacts once a minute. Don't give me your Avatar melee when you'll wind up burning MPs faster than the craziest BLM letting your big avatars melee.
Yadda yadda yadda...
I'm not saying you're shitty damage dealers so you should be a shitty healer cause you can't be that shitty at healing. I'm saying you are a GOOD main healer and it seems to be the focus of what your job is capable at.
If you want to compare a BLM taru with vermillion to a galka whm without, I'd say as main healer the Taru is certainly giving the galka a run for his money. But then again now you're talking about the worst possible race by far versus the best by far and a 3.5 million piece of gear advantage to the better race. My Taru SMN is 30 now and I challenge any galka WHM to outheal me in a straight up, see who can heal a dying person before they run out of MPs contest. I guaranfreakingtee I'll win. All you're really saying is galka WHM can't main heal, and the hell do I agree with that.
So my point is... really, what is your point Kipsy? Do you hate Galka WHMs or do you like shiny 3.5 million gil equipment?

 

[Kat]

*wants to know where the hell Rones is for his opinion on this whole thing :lol: *

 

[Sanjo Renomitsu]

Spellbind your post is excellent but it only proves my point.

Try joining a pt just expecting to do those things.


You guys are getting the wrong idea, that all smn do is heal. That is not the case, after all that is not what whm do either. As svina pointed out we can solo a lot of crap. That's nice. It makes us different, however that is outside an xp setting. on Xp mobs that is not possible. I would like any smn to try and solo an IT mob. Maybe a few monster TYPES might be possible, barly due to some weakness, but that's it.

However you look at what smn can do they are healers.

Ninja are tanks, but pld do so much better at tanking because they are built for tanking. Still, ninja has some verynice perks regardless.

Smn CAN do things other then healing, which I said are only perks. A whm can raise, cast proectra regen, tele haste so it doesn't just HEAL. They CAN do other things, likewise so can smn. This doesn't make them any less healers. Sorry.

 

[Firestreak]

The funniest part of all of this comparison between healers and tanks Sanjo, is none of them are actually WAR. They just sub WAR, but we expect them to provoke every 30 don't we? But no one argues PLD are tank because the bullshit Brady guide says it. Yet people do argue Ninja are because the bullshit brady guide says they ain't. Chew on that for a while people.

 

[Sanjo Renomitsu]

That's just the name of the game, it's how it is. Some classes would be too powerful had they all the perfect elements. So let's say pld did get provoke? How many pld/whm or pld/nin would we see? There would be nothing else at all resonable to use. Pld would be gods. So smn has to sub whm to be a healer, yet what are the alternative choices? There are none, just as there are none really for pld or until recently ninja.

Smn/blm, Smn/rdm, Smn/brd are about it, because heavens know any use that could come out of a mage subbing a melee job...

Smn/blm is just about useless, because unlike most whm spells the spells you get from subbing blm are horribly weak. Casting Stone I and Fire I on a level 62 mob doesn't cut it for me. =/ Sure you get a few of the 2 spells (I think) not enough to warrant good use. Unlike being a damn well nice, or better, replacment for a whm you would be a sorry excuse for a blm. That leaves brd and rdm subs... I'll leave rdm alone... Brd is the only alt sub -I- think -might- work. Since bard spells know no levels either, however your use is far less then subbing whm, since most of the best spells are higher then you can sub.

The point is you have to look at what smn can do alone, without any support from a subjob. Inside a pt, that is not too much, so you are required to lean heavily on whatever sub you choice. The only sub you would not suffer from being say 30 levels below you as 60, is whm. As I always say healing knows no levels. You can easily heal for the same as a whm WITHOUT mind gear, and because of your higher mp and mp regain the only thing you are lacking are a few spells.

 

[yanzi]

My Taru SMN is 30 now and I challenge any galka WHM to outheal me in a straight up, see who can heal a dying person before they run out of MPs contest. I guaranfreakingtee I'll win. All you're really saying is galka WHM can't main heal, and the hell do I agree with that.

actually at 30, you'd lose if a tank is taking more than 100 damage per hit. it's not always about how much mp is left. smn doesn't get cure3 or regen1 until much later.

 

[Sanjo Renomitsu]

My Taru SMN is 30 now and I challenge any galka WHM to outheal me in a straight up, see who can heal a dying person before they run out of MPs contest. I guaranfreakingtee I'll win. All you're really saying is galka WHM can't main heal, and the hell do I agree with that.

actually at 30, you'd lose if a tank is taking more than 100 damage per hit. it's not always about how much mp is left. smn doesn't get cure3 or regen1 until much later.

Usually the higher level cure when you first get it is useless in normal healing and only used for emergencies. If the whm had to spam cure 3 he'd be dead anyways. Same problem, and having a higher level cure won't help. If he takes a crit tho for 100 maybe once, dipping the tank low, then the whm could toss in a cure 3 and resume normal curing, yes that is an advantage whm have over smn at lower levels, tho I'd leave a pt that the tank gets hurt too much anyways. Once smn get cure 3 they are pretty much set, and if tank hp drops lol the rdm or bard can toss in a helpful heal, that's the reason they sub whm in bards case and the reason rdm can heal anywas.

 

[Firestreak]

Yes even at 63 I got hate my last PT when I tried dipping into cure 4. Cure 5 is great but it's not til around 70+ish anyway that tanks have enough HPs to use it MP efficiently.... And at that point, SMNs are self proclaimed DDs.

 

[Svina]

I would like any smn to try and solo an IT mob.

I solo'd aura pots in sky ;D

Then the people who were there started playing with the doors and I got trapped...bastards.

 

[Spellbind]

I would like any smn to try and solo an IT mob.

I solo'd aura pots in sky ;D

Then the people who were there started playing with the doors and I got trapped...bastards.

Summoners can also solo IT bombs.

Go to Ifrit's Cauldron. Summon Carby. Sic him on an unexpecting Bomb. Have him melee until bomb goes boom. Collect your 250+ XP and go on to the next bomb.

You can also do this with a SMN friend and you can easily protect yourself in case Carby goes down before an explosion (because those bombs are fast!!!). Best part is you still get 250+ XP with each kill with two people in the group. If they ever become 'Tough' instead of VT+, go find another area with bigger bombs to play with.

I've seen other Summoner's solo IT mobs with the ole' cast Carby and have him melee until he dies and then just summon another one. But that can take a long time and you really need Carby Mitts to make it worthwhile. Plus there's alot of running involved to give you some distance between the mob and you to give you casting time...

Either way, it's soloing your own XP.

-Spellbind

 

[Sanjo Renomitsu]

I would like any smn to try and solo an IT mob. Maybe a few monster TYPES might be possible, barly due to some weakness, but that's it.

Both have said weaknesses. I believe with the bombs is they just blow up, not very strong either. Anyways for the pots, I do believe you can solo them extremly well enough to even come close to surpassing an xp pt, and that's at 70+ anyways.

it would also be so slow it really would not be close to worth it.. And as I already said smn can do nice things outside of pt. Now, inside a pt....

 

[yanzi]

My Taru SMN is 30 now and I challenge any galka WHM to outheal me in a straight up, see who can heal a dying person before they run out of MPs contest. I guaranfreakingtee I'll win. All you're really saying is galka WHM can't main heal, and the hell do I agree with that.

actually at 30, you'd lose if a tank is taking more than 100 damage per hit. it's not always about how much mp is left. smn doesn't get cure3 or regen1 until much later.

Usually the higher level cure when you first get it is useless in normal healing and only used for emergencies. If the whm had to spam cure 3 he'd be dead anyways. Same problem, and having a higher level cure won't help. If he takes a crit tho for 100 maybe once, dipping the tank low, then the whm could toss in a cure 3 and resume normal curing, yes that is an advantage whm have over smn at lower levels, tho I'd leave a pt that the tank gets hurt too much anyways. Once smn get cure 3 they are pretty much set, and if tank hp drops lol the rdm or bard can toss in a helpful heal, that's the reason they sub whm in bards case and the reason rdm can heal anywas.

not everyone else helps healing. i've met blms and rdm who don't help heal. heck, last nite, i pt with a jp rdm/drk level 73 rank 8, with joyeuse and he didn't help cure once. healing was left to me and a smn. spamming low level cures sucks.

 

[Pompidou]

Summoners aren't main healers. Summoners are Summoners. Black Mages aren't main healers. Black Mages are Black Mages. Main healers use cure spells. Neither of the above classes get a cure spell. If Summoner weren't an advanced job, what would a Summoner do in a party untill level 18? Would a straight Summoner main heal? I doubt it. Jobs aren't defined by their subjob. A Dark Knight is always a damage dealer no matter what the subjob. A White Mage is always main healer, no matter what the subjob. A Warrior is always a tank/damage dealer hybrid no matter the subjob. Summoners are always Summoners no matter what the subjob.

That said, people don't want Summoners in their party for some reason. They want main healers in their party. Summoners aren't main healers, but fortunately for them, if they choose the right subjob, they can fill the role. Summoners aren't main healing in parties because it's the job they were meant to do. That's ludicrous. It's obvious that SE intended Summoners to weild avatars in parties. Effective: maybe, maybe not. Summoners main heal in parties because its the only way they'll get parties. It's not their role. It's a position they were pidgeon-holed into, and accepted unenthusiastically because they quite frankly have no other choice.

 

[yanzi]

Summoners aren't main healers. Summoners are Summoners. Black Mages aren't main healers. Black Mages are Black Mages. Main healers use cure spells. Neither of the above classes get a cure spell. If Summoner weren't an advanced job, what would a Summoner do in a party untill level 18? Would a straight Summoner main heal? I doubt it. Jobs aren't defined by their subjob. A Dark Knight is always a damage dealer no matter what the subjob. A White Mage is always main healer, no matter what the subjob. A Warrior is always a tank/damage dealer hybrid no matter the subjob. Summoners are always Summoners no matter what the subjob.

That said, people don't want Summoners in their party for some reason. They want main healers in their party. Summoners aren't main healers, but fortunately for them, if they choose the right subjob, they can fill the role. Summoners aren't main healing in parties because it's the job they were meant to do. That's ludicrous. It's obvious that SE intended Summoners to weild avatars in parties. Effective: maybe, maybe not. Summoners main heal in parties because its the only way they'll get parties. It's not their role. It's a position they were pidgeon-holed into, and accepted unenthusiastically because they quite frankly have no other choice.

try not subbing whm and see how many pts you can get into.