Why Summoners = Main healers.

yanzi said:
Pompidou said:
Summoners aren't main healers. Summoners are Summoners. Black Mages aren't main healers. Black Mages are Black Mages. Main healers use cure spells. Neither of the above classes get a cure spell. If Summoner weren't an advanced job, what would a Summoner do in a party untill level 18? Would a straight Summoner main heal? I doubt it. Jobs aren't defined by their subjob. A Dark Knight is always a damage dealer no matter what the subjob. A White Mage is always main healer, no matter what the subjob. A Warrior is always a tank/damage dealer hybrid no matter the subjob. Summoners are always Summoners no matter what the subjob.

That said, people don't want Summoners in their party for some reason. They want main healers in their party. Summoners aren't main healers, but fortunately for them, if they choose the right subjob, they can fill the role. Summoners aren't main healing in parties because it's the job they were meant to do. That's ludicrous. It's obvious that SE intended Summoners to weild avatars in parties. Effective: maybe, maybe not. Summoners main heal in parties because its the only way they'll get parties. It's not their role. It's a position they were pidgeon-holed into, and accepted unenthusiastically because they quite frankly have no other choice.
Click to expand...

try not subbing whm and see how many pts you can get into.
Click to expand...
 
The Summoner are summoners who summons topic is getting really tiresome. Its not a fact, its your opinion that you as a summoner don't want to be placed into that position. Well then you have to build your party of your flavor, instead of deniying the position the party leader gave it to you. Now at early levels you might be able to get or form parties. But the higher you go, it will be much difficult.
 
Summoners aren't main healers. Summoners are Summoners. Black Mages aren't main healers. Black Mages are Black Mages. Main healers use cure spells. Neither of the above classes get a cure spell. If Summoner weren't an advanced job, what would a Summoner do in a party untill level 18? Would a straight Summoner main heal? I doubt it. Jobs aren't defined by their subjob. A Dark Knight is always a damage dealer no matter what the subjob. A White Mage is always main healer, no matter what the subjob. A Warrior is always a tank/damage dealer hybrid no matter the subjob. Summoners are always Summoners no matter what the subjob.

That said, people don't want Summoners in their party for some reason. They want main healers in their party. Summoners aren't main healers, but fortunately for them, if they choose the right subjob, they can fill the role. Summoners aren't main healing in parties because it's the job they were meant to do. That's ludicrous. It's obvious that SE intended Summoners to weild avatars in parties. Effective: maybe, maybe not. Summoners main heal in parties because its the only way they'll get parties. It's not their role. It's a position they were pidgeon-holed into, and accepted unenthusiastically because they quite frankly have no other choice.
Click to expand...

Let me use your exact same argument for the Paladin class.

Paladins aren't main tanks. Paladins are Paladins. Ninjas aren't main tanks. Ninjas are Ninjas. Main tanks use provoke. Neither of the above classes get the provoke ability. If Paladin weren't an advanced job, what would a paladin do in a party until 18? Would a straight paladin main tank? I doubt it. Jobs aren't defined by their subjob. A dark knight is a damage dealer no matter what his subjob is. A warrior is always a main tank no matter what the subjob is. Paladins are always paladins no matter what the subjob.

That said, people don't want my Paladin/Thief in their party for some reason. They want tanks in their party, but my Paladin/Thief is not a tank. Paladins aren't main tanks, but fortunately for them, if they subjob warrior they can fill the role. Paladins aren't main tanks because it's not the job they chose to play. That's ludricrous. It's obvious Squaresoft intended Paladins to wield Great Swords in parties. Effective? Maybe, maybe not. Paladins tank in parties because it's the only way they'll get parties. It's not their role. It's the position they were pidgeon-whatevered into and they accept unethusiastically.



I'm sorry, that's exactly how your logic seems to me. Because it's utter bullshit. How the hell do you know what squaresoft intended Summoners to be? Quit reading the fucking Brady Guide for all of life's answers. I just explained to you why mathematically a SMN as a non-main healer is ineffective, and a SMN as a main healer IS affective. But you fall back on your broken logic that I just proved holds no candle.
 
That's a very good point, Fire. I still disagree that a SMN should -only- be a main healer in a party (they can be in a party and not be main healer, instead filling the same sort of support role that BRD or RDM would have), but I completely agree that they do a very good job of filling that role, and I would invite a SMN to a party instead of WHM to be main healer under some circumstances.
 
I still keep seeing level 70+ being brought up. Do not look at what level 70+ can do or is doing, as the rules of the game completely change. As I said in a previous post you need to be looking at levels 30 to 69. Levels 1 to 29 are the learning levels where you can get away with just about anything. Level 70 to 75 are end game, and are not played like the previous levels.

Personally I see SMN as a support character the same way I view RDM and BRD. Yes we can Main Heal, but we are far more effective in general to Backup Heal and providing additional support with our other Job Abilities. There are always expectations to this, when fighting in certain party configurations and against certain mobs.
 
Well my only point is that only 2 jobs are capable of regenerating MPs. in order to chain effectively with minimal downtime, you'll need either or, a RDM or a BRD. You'll need a main healer. So now look at it from the point of a party leader. You want the most exp/ hour humanly possible. You've already got your precious WHM, and you've got a RDM. You need 2 skillchainers or none. So throw in 2 DDs. Now you've got a tank and an open slot.

Hence my direct comparison with BLM vs SMN. What other choices are there? Replace SMN instead of a regular melee DD? Less damage, far less weaponskill accuracy and requires vasts amounts of MPs. Or do we replace the "support job" hence instead of RDM or BRD take a SMN. This seems to be where you guys want to place them, but I can't really see it. I mean, they have the backup heal, and some support bloodpacts and weaker magic burst capablility. But instead of adding MP refresh to the table, they require a vast amount of MP refresh instead, and gives no means except for using expensive items constantly.

Then let's not undermine RDM and BRD's ability besides their Refresh and Ballad. Debuffs and Songs are incredibly useful and very MP efficient. Dia, Slow, Bilnd, Paralyze... they are useful all the way til 75 but use so little MPs they are a staple of any decent Valkurm Dunes RDM. And BRDs songs arre so so sought after they are the highest demand job in the game.

But we agree SMN can main heal. And I argue they do a damn good job at it. In fact SMN is a great job all around. however, so is RDM, and so is BRD, and so is BLM. They are awesome jobs too, and they are competiting for the mage / support slots against SMN. If SMN should be a non main healer, well I suppose at times. Those times when there simply is no BLM, a SMN is probably the next best choice, better than a 3rd DD who is awkward and with no skllchain partner. But I do believe it's their ideal role and quite frankly they should expect to be main healer. I mean, you yourself admit you do a good job of it and can make use of some bloodpacts that a whitemage main healer wouldn't have access too anyway.
 
Another thing to look at btw... he's right about a few things, anyone would have to be an utter moron to leave avatars out to fight in the endgame.

The cost to perpetuate an avatar at lvl 70+ is 12 mp per tick. With auto refresh, you're looking at 11, with v. cloak or austere, you have 10. Throw in the appropriate elemental staff and that becomes 8.

Now let's say you have balladx2 and refresh also, that cost becomes 2 mp, which is pretty sweet.

Now, let's say you have the AF2 body and the AF2 horn (both can potentially give -3 to avatar perpetuation cost)... summoning Ifrit on fire day with fire weather... and ballad + refresh you are perpetuating him not only for free, but gaining back 3 mp per tick!!

Only in this case, would I say sure! Melee your damned avatar's heart out! Because on top of it all, the af2 gear gives your avatar higher attack power, higher crit rate, and all in all this adds up to some decent DOT if you throw in the lvl 70 pact every minute.

However, how many of you have all the af2 gear? That's what I thought. These are ideal conditions, or rather, a SMN's dream to be able to do, but again, it will take a long long time before any of us can achieve this status. I know very few JP SMN who have been doing dynamis for a long time who have that much of the SMN AF2... but I'll be damned if it isn't the best gear a SMN could ever have.
 
Fire, it's people like you that make me hate this game sometimes.

It's not all about min/maxing your character.

It's not all about doing THE MOST UBER DMG EVER OMGZ!

It's not about having the OMG PERFECT PARTY!!!!11one.

It's about having fun.



And, by your logic, any single mage that subs White Mage is automatically the main healer. God I hope they don't add anymore mage classes, because all they'd be is more main healers for people like you. And your Paladin/Nin tank example was bull. For starters, you get both of those jobs at 30, if you already leveled WAR to 30 and like tanking, you pick up Paladin. It's a no-brainer. Seconally, Ninjas were never meant to be tanks. A representitve of SE said this. So, whatever. You go ahead and abuse the poor summoners in your party to main healing. I'll invite them as summoners, and they'll enjoy the game a hell of a lot more.
 
Firestreak said:
Well my only point is that only 2 jobs are capable of regenerating MPs. in order to chain effectively with minimal downtime, you'll need either or, a RDM or a BRD. You'll need a main healer. So now look at it from the point of a party leader. You want the most exp/ hour humanly possible. You've already got your precious WHM, and you've got a RDM. You need 2 skillchainers or none. So throw in 2 DDs. Now you've got a tank and an open slot.
Click to expand...


/Thread Hijack

Here is where a big problem lies, that people think they must have a RDM or a BRD for our MP refresh. Most MP classes waste tons of MP in a fight. Curing when they shouldn’t be curing, nuking when they shouldn’t be nuking, not using Aspir. It is this level of waste that causes the demand on RDM and BRD refresh.

PLD you have so little MP you can regain most of it while resting during the pull, Forgot your TP, you are a Tank not a Damage Dealer.

DRK, use your Aspir and keep your casting to a minimal. Your MP is there for your Absorb Spells. You are a Melee Damage Dealer, not a Mage. Look at your TP. If you have little to none on your TP scale then go ahead and rest. This should happen quite often, as the party should be Skill Chaining as much as possible.

BLM, this is a huge pet peeve of mine. Black mages end a fight they do not start them. Keep resting until the monster is either half dead, or you are needed for a Magic Burst. STOP CHAIN NUKING FROM THE START OF THE FIGHT. I don’t care if you are not pulling hate. Yes the monster dies faster, but you killed the EXP Chain! This also gives the melee class time to build up more hate than you, so you can unleash on it.

WHM, your job is to keep people alive, this does not mean in the green. Your tank is the most important person. If your Damage Dealers are down a little bit do not worry about them. This also includes after the end of a fight, if they just need a little top off, that is fine, but everyone dose not need Full HP for the next monster. Do not heal the RDM or BLM unless they are really hurting. We have Drain for a reason. This requires a lot of thought and a lot of VERY FAST decision making and of all the mages jobs you should be using the least amount of MP per fight. REGEN, REGEN, REGEN, I can’t say it enough. Also do not heal your self, let the backup Healer do that. Start resting towards the end of the fight, by this point the Backup Healer is free to handle healing.

RDM, you have the hardest time with MP, simple because you are casting from the start of the fight with your enfeebles, and then backup healing the end of the fight. This is why we get convert, but that does not mean you get to go cast happy. You should be able to get Chain 3 before you convert. Know which enfeebles you need to cast, and don’t waste MP on anything else. This is why your MND and INT stats are more important that your MP stat. You want to minimize having to recast any enfeebling spell. Thou impossible, the goal is to land everything on the first go around, if it doesn’t land on the second cast, do not cast it again! This requires you to be paying attention to a lot of information going on in the battle. We have a very busy and hard job, and I hate to say it, the majority of the players out there are not up to the task. You need to know everything going on in the battle, from how often your DD are missing there Hits, to everyone’s HP and MP levels and what the Monster is doing.

SMN, know when to use your Blood packs and when not too and rest as much as possible. You all will be using up the most MP in a fight, but thankful you shouldn’t be needed at the start of a fight, unless you are in a party with Fire who is making you Main Heal.

/Thread Hijack Off
 
Fire, it's people like you that make me hate this game sometimes.

It's not all about min/maxing your character.

It's not all about doing THE MOST UBER DMG EVER OMGZ!

It's not about having the OMG PERFECT PARTY!!!!11one.

It's about having fun.
Click to expand...

You are using the same argument anyone ever has to justify all of the folowing things:
Not making gil for required equipment.
Not leveling and using a correct subjob.
Refusing to play their job as the game design makes it most effective.

Since you want to make it a personal attack and a broad generalization all at once. I'll take note of the fact you mention that Ninja isn't designed to be a main tank. I will then say that a Ninja is as much of a main tank as a Summoner is a main healer. And therefore I will make a generalization about "people like you" as well.

People like you would sub thief on Ninja because Ninja isn't a "main tank". Therefore people like you don't mind being a total waste of a party slot because you prefer to play the game your own way.

Oh wait, I forgot, your argument as well as mine ignores all things. THE TRUTH.

THE TRUTH IS - You as stated have been willing to main heal as black mage, therefore I assume as summoner if asked you would do the same.
THE TRUTH IS - I don't go around abusing summoners and make them want to quit FF, I simply don't invite them to my PT if I require a main healer and they aren't willing to do it. It's as simple as that. I came here to explain why it is. You have been constantly ignoring my reasoning and jumping straight to whatever point you want to make regardless.

I didn't say any mage in a main healer. I agree for instance in most cased RDM and WHM is better than RDM and RDM. And I certainly don't see how BLM makes a more effective main healer than a WHM, given the only advantage they have really is more MPs(slightly). I do however see SMNs having a huge MP boost, a innate refresh ability and many bloodpacts that are centered around support. As well their bloodpacts give no added hate to the WHM itself unlike if a BLM with spare MP as main healer wanted to nuke. Your argument is over-emotional and nonsenical.

Summoners played whitemage til 30 already, so therefore they are "sick of it" and shouldn't have to heal anymore. But WAR have been tank til 30 so before being PLD or NIN they "know if they like it or not". What the hell is that? If you don't like main healer, here's a news flash, DON'T PLAY SUMMONER. If nothing else everyone on this damned thread admits that summoners will be usually strong-armed into becoming a main healer. Isn't it simply a good piece of advice that if you hate it so god damn much you'd quit the game if you were forced to as so many feel "the lower level of main healer" like it's some sort of insult to them, play another damned job.
 
And Pascal at times I think you can be right that MP Refresher isn't needed. However SMNs definetly need MP Refresher if they're going to be spamming blood pacts. I could see WHM not needing MP Refresher for a Nin tank however. BLM... well, the more MP the better...

By the way, I will admit to being a "power gamer" if you want to call it that. I applied simple mathematics to the set formulas in Final Fantasy. These maths are not complicated, I've been doing them since I was in elementary school. And I'll be damned if the laws of a computer program somehow doesn't confine to its own math. I simply continued using these findings and somehow I "powergamed" my way to high level over and over again... and I'll be damned if I didn't have a fun time doing it.
 
I'm sorry, that's exactly how your logic seems to me. Because it's utter bullshit. How the hell do you know what squaresoft intended Summoners to be? Quit reading the fucking Brady Guide for all of life's answers. I just explained to you why mathematically a SMN as a non-main healer is ineffective, and a SMN as a main healer IS affective. But you fall back on your broken logic that I just proved holds no candle.
Click to expand...

That wasn't very nice :D . When I look at a Summoner's BP lineup, it seems that the offensive and support oriented abilities are at the very least about equal. Before you jump to conclusions, I'm not saying "That means Summoners are damage dealers only", or something ludicrous (word of the week it seems). I'm saying Summoners are a balanced class. They should be doing a little of everything. My previous post was saying that Summoners that want to use ALL of their strengths in a party are out of luck. In a party, Summoners are cure-bots first and foremost, and avatar buffer second. I have yet to party with a Summoner that was given the opportunity to bring everything to the table, so to speak. It's similar to Redmages, as Red Mages are also a jack of all trades class. Red Mages were also forced into main healer roles untill they get their Refresh and Convert, in which they do little else after that. Both mages have a variety of abilities that just go to waste in the average exp party. FFXI doesn't like well rounded classes. I'm not blaming the population for this. It's a design issue, probably. Only jobs with specialties prosper. Healing isn't a Summoner's specialty in the same way as Refresh and Convert become a Red Mages'. Summoners being main healers is more like Red Mages pre41 being used as main healers. It's not exactly the well rounded, do a little of everything but mostly support, sort of role that they excel at, but it's what's needed most.
 
Firestreak said:
And Pascal at times I think you can be right that MP Refresher isn't needed. However SMNs definetly need MP Refresher if they're going to be spamming blood pacts. I could see WHM not needing MP Refresher for a Nin tank however. BLM... well, the more MP the better...
Click to expand...

Agreed Refresh is nice, but it is not the necessity that everyone makes it out to be. If people would conserve there MP as if they where partying with out it, they would find high EXP Chains to be a lot easier when they do have it. SMN should not be spamming Blood Packs, there is a time when a certain pack is needed and times it is not needed. This includes Damage Spells and Support Spells, just leave your avatar fighting and you be healing until it is needed.

White Mage should not need refresh for a PLD tank either, because they should be healing them selves to generate hate, between Flash, Blind, and Paralyze it will help reduce the hits the tank takes, allowing Regen time to make up the difference. Cures should only be needed to catch him backup once he starts getting low on HP.
 
You're still ignoring the biggest fact of all Fire.

Summoners are not White Mages.

Yes, most of them end up main healing because they HAVE to. In a perfect world people would have a spot for everyone in the party, but there's too many people like you who are only interested in max hp/hour. Sometimes being effective isn't fun, and being a POWER GAMER just makes me sick. Am I the only one playing this game just because it's fun anymore? Min/maxing and power gaming just makes the game feel like a job. Why would you do that anyway? So you can point at other people and say how much better you are than them? God.

Oh, and about me being main healer as BLM? I did it because I was partying with cool people, my friends. If a pick-up party picked me up as a main healer I'd laugh in their face.
 
She did a damn good job at main healing, I might add.
 
Pascal said:
She did a damn good job at main healing, I might add.
Click to expand...

Well WHM is 41 too, I know how to main heal, it's just really depressing not to be able to use the abilites your job is given. Main healing as BLM makes me miss out on all my elemental debuffs, random extra debuffs, and most imporantly, the magic burst...
 
I've mainhealed as a blm. I don't mind the role. I enjoy levelling whm as much as blm. I'm never against even main healing a battle in a party that has a whm in it who's run out of mp, just to keep the chain going. Everyone should powergame, because level grinding is slow otherwise. Summoners should be doing a little of everything, but I agree it's not as efficient as simply being a healer. My main healing as a blm wasn't efficient either, but hey, it had to be done. When the exp is rolling in, everyone is happy. I would just argue that Summoners, ideally, should be healing, using avatar buffs, participating in skill chains, magic bursting from time to time, the whole lineup of their skills. Not all in the same battle, for time reasons, but at the least, doing anything other than curing shouldn't be a very rare treat.
 
Pom, I like leveling WHM too, but it's frustrating when you want to nuke, to have to only cure. Yeah, I back-up heal, that's why I sub WHM. But when it's to the point where I can't magic burst, then what's the point of having me in the party? I might as well switch to WHM. All the jobs are different, and should be unique to play...but when you play Summoner exactly the way you play White mage...what's the point of leveling Summoner at all? I already have 40 levels of White Mage, why should I play Summoner for 40 levels exactly the same? The Avatars arn't just there for good looks you know...
 
I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say Kipsy. That it's ok if you have fun because you're with cool people, and those cool people are skilled players so you'll get good xp. So then it's cool if you get good xp by accidently when not trying to have fun... Ugh, I really just don't get it. Yes, it's a game. If I didn't have fun I wouldn't play. But it's a different kind of game. It's not Grand Theft Auto 3, or World of Warcraft, or any other game i've ever played. It's about teamwork because you as a party member affect me, as much as I affect m myself.
I do a lot of things in Final Fantasy I don't consider very fun as a means at which to become most affective. I enjoy leveling very much, but often I must do other things like level and and cap alternative subjobs, weapons, and save up for expensive equipments. The fun is the payoff in the end with a high yielding exp party. Summoners, with the attainment of Fenrir, which can only take a day if you're high enough on a job, is a surprisingly cheap job to play. Astral Rings, vermillion cloak if you're truly dedicated. Nothing all to terribly expensive compared with some of the other jobs if intending to be the very best possible.

I mean, you aren't arguing my straight logic that SMN played as main healer generates the most xp/hour possible, you are arguing that exp/hour doesn't matter. And I agree then, if exp/hour doesn't matter, nothing does. If exp/hour doesn't matter, I can play however I want on any job to make it the most fun. But that's not how I'd choose to play, and that's not the mindset I enjoy to play with of my party members. So you can take your high and mighty attitude and shove it, for all I care. If you aren't here to debate the actual question of if SMN is most efficient as main healer, I don't see the point of your argument. Should people just play how they want to have the most fun regardless, well that's simply an issue for another thread that should encumpass all jobs.

And I'm sorry Pomp if I seemed mean I just grew up around lawyers so I can spot a logical flaw like that easily and it sets me off sometimes.

Aslo to Sethala I really do think me and you are in 99% agreement here. You do seem like a capable SMN and that's a rare thing out there in the LFP jungle. So kudos to you.
 
I agree with you. I also agree with Firestreak. You're both right. People who levelled whm to 37 and became a summoner didn't do so because they thought all of those high level spells made healing too easy, and that they wanted to be a whm half their level, albeit with more mp, for the challenge of it. You're right in that aspect. Firestreak is right in that it doesn't matter what the Summoner wants. Parties simply don't care. They want your Cure III, not your Garuda. You keep your summon skill capped not because you'll need it in a party, but because the same people who don't really value avatar abilities will call you a gimped summoner if it's not near cap. There's the ideal world, and there's reality. In the ideal world, you're right. In reality, Firestreak is right.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top