Why Summoners = Main healers.

Sabia, these are the questions I have for you.

When you're not main healing, what bloodpacts do you use and when? How much damage do they do / prevent. How many MPs do they take? Is the WHM able to heal without you? Do you support the WHM a lot or only a little? Would a BLM in your spot not be able to kill the monster faster saving the WHM MPs by shortening the fight and at the same time increasing XP/hour by killing mob faster. Cause I can't quite wrap my mind around this "support job" people keep speaking of. What exactly do you support? You don't keep the chain going longer because you don't refresh MPs. You can lessen some load of the WHM by supporting with additional cures You can do bloodpacts but are they really as good as RDM enfeeble and BRD enhancing which do it while regening MP and while they are able to support cure too?

You say curing is important, but also bloodpacts are important. If you have only MP for one, do you: A) Think a WHM should be there not you. B) Tell the stupid RDM to main heal so you can do bloodpacts C) Use less bloodpacts and be pissed about it?

I understand you worked hard for your avatars. Then again as far as I'm concerned the avatars are no big deal. I mean if you've got a 65+ job they are an easy 3 hours for an able group. It's always been my opinion SMN is supposed to be played after getting all the avatars on another job(though I know we disagree there), but honestly compared to the gil I've spent on BLM and WHM spells I'll never use in XP PT, it's not really that big a deal even at lvl 20. I mean seriously, I spent 200k on flare because when my BLM was 60 it cost that much. But I don't think that means I'm entitled to use it when I please. Was 200k a lot of moeny for me back then? Hell yes.

So why should people ask you ahead of time if you are ok with not using avatars? People don't ask me ahead of time if I'm ok with not spamming ancient magic like a fool. But I don't because DMG/MP wise it's a crappy ratio, and I'd be hurting my party as a result. Yet it should be different for SMN? You should be allowed to do bloodpacts even if they're a bad effect/mp ratio?

But yes, I do ask SMN if they are willing to main heal. And usualy, they say no. So I don't invite them and I don't think twice about it. I mean, yes, Nin/war requires less MPs, so you can do more bloodpacts and be more effective. At the same time, most WHMs like Nin/war too. I can do stuff like... my taxes. Read a book(Dante's Inferno is really good) and whatever.. spam Banishga 2 and Holy w00t w00t. But sometimes I notice even as WHM when I'm getting a particulary soft PLD, I don't even have MPs to do lots of extras I like. It goes for all main healers.

And Sabia that belt is Taru only. But an excellent belt, used on my WHM til 60.
 
Your job as a BLM isn't to do Ancient Magic Firestreak. It's to use offensive spells. If you were inviting a BLM to a party to main heal and NEVER use their offensive spells would you not think it's appropriate to ask if this is allright with them? I mean they have Conserve MP which more than makes up for my large mana pool, they have all the same level protects, raises, cures, Bar spells, poisona etc that I have, so why the hell not? I realize that I can only use my Bloodpacts (Earthern ward, Hastega (which is awesome with a full party of dual weild melee), Spring Water, Whispering Wind, Aerial Armor for the mages, Magic Bursts and Skill chain openers/enders like Double Slap) once a minute and I don't just sit there. I'm curing my ass off as a main healer.

I static with a BLM and a BRD, we usually try to pick up a NIN or WAR/NIN as a tank and then fill in the rest with DRKs, RNGs & THFs. Do I think it's a waste to invite a WHM into party with me? I do with Blink tanks - not with any other kind of tanks.

I've never had good experiences main healing with PLD tanks, either I'm blowing through 900+ MP in two battles or they die 4 times in a row from Sickle Slash. Is this my fault? NO! It's the constraints of using a level 28 WHM in a level 49 area. Cure III is great when the mobs aren't doing 600+ points of damage per hit.

I don't know if you actually bothered reading my above post but I listed two examples where a summoner would be (and rightfully so) hesitant to be main healer. I'm ALWAYS main healer in my parties so please don't pull this "What do you bring to your party" crap with me. I mean seriously I bring more to a party with the right set up then a WHM ever could. Key words being "Right Set Up" and in other situations I"m left in the dust. I'm uncomfortable when I don't think I can keep a party alive or chaining, as when you're a main healer the whole parties success comes to rest on your shoulders even when it's not all your fault. If the Tank dies it's your fault (eventhough someone could of back-up voked or other mages could of helped with healing), if the chains aren't hitting optimal numbers it's your fault because you're out of MP.

I made it very clear that SMNs can main heal but they are still summoners and chose that job to do it. There are tanks/parties that allow us to pull off the job of a WHM and a SMN which I'm hunky dorey with, hell I love it as I love being an incredibly valuble member of my parties. I've never had complaints about my methods and tend to recieve a lot of compliments. I know there's a lot I need to learn as I havn't had many chances to do the Skill chain thing when I'm main healing - but I do try to burst and have out-bursted my BLM friend at times (due to timing of course :wink: ).

So please don't pull this "Well I bought Ancient magic spells and I don't use them." That's just one phase of a BLMs career and I'm pretty sure eventhough you're not casting Quake and Tornado, you're casting Freeze, Thunder II, Blizzard II etc. It's a totally different situation then telling a Summoner not to summon at all, and I have been in situations like this quite a few times. I hate it, I don't enjoy it. If I wanted to play a level 28 WHM when I'm a level 51 SMN, I'd just go level my sub. :roll:
 
Freeze? God no. Horribly inefficient. Don't even factor in the added provoke effect and even with the burst it's crap considering it's 322 MPs.

My response was towards the question of this...


Should summoners heal? YES! You shouldn't be sitting on your ass between your 1 min blood pact timer when your party members lives are in the yellow.

Should summoners also summon? YES! Sweet lord, summoners go through a lot of crap to get all those shiney little avatars and I'll be damned if I'm not going to use them.

Should you ask a summoner if they want to main heal if your expectation of them is to only main heal and not use avatars? Shit yeah.
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Now forgive me if my compression is poor. But you said to me rather clearly. You should heal. You should also summon.

We agree you summoners are top notch in those blink tank parties. No need for WHM and everybody is happy. The question then becomes the PLD parties. Well I'd argue a decent paladin should do a fair amount of self healing. Then again I'm used to being a taru paladin. They should still be able to throw a powerful cure their way in the case of an emergency. As well if you have a static BLM and BRD they should be able to throw cure 3 towards an injured paladin as well.

As to being killed by sickle slash. That's just part of life for any tank. It has nothing to do with the skill or power of the healer. Paladins are killed left and right by sickle regardless of if they have a WHM in the party or not. That's a 1 shot kill attack sometimes. If it's a close call, your static BLM should simply use Stun and buy you all a few seconds to get the PLD up to reasonable health soon. It's not a question of how powerful a cure you can throw, it's a question of how fast you can get the first cure in possible. Let me remind you cure 4 actually takes more time to cast thus spamming it is more difficult. In fact cure 3 should be the first spell out of the barrel after a strong sickle for WHM as well.

Why I think BLM are less suited for healing than SMN? Well all blm abilities create hate and all avatar abilities don't. Even by your logic if we agree WHM is best for PLD, on a blink tank you can use avatars and not pull hate but a BLM iwho is full time curing can't use spare MPs to nuke because they've already got too much hate created through healing.

As for the PLD and the chaining I can only say, if you're burning 900 MPs so quickly then the battle is just going to to slow, or your paladin sucks. All tanks are not created equal and a horrible one will ruin the chain NO MATTER WHAT JOB is main healer.
 
Firestreak said:
All tanks are not created equal and a horrible one will ruin the chain NO MATTER WHAT JOB is main healer.
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But some tanks/healers make better combinations then others. I think it's a wasted party slot to have a WHM in a party with a NIN tank. As I think it's a dangerous situation to have a SMN main heal in a PLD tank party (ESPECIALLY Pre-50). I've been playing this game for well over a year now and through all my experiences of playing healing classes (it's all I've played) I love having PLD tanks with my WHM and detest having NIN tanks, on the other hand I adore NIN tanks on my SMN and hate having PLD tanks.

When I'm playing whm with a NIN tank I'm just wasting MP doing Banish over and over, but with a PLD tank we compliment eachother quite nicely with me casting far more spells and being more useful in my role as main healer. It's the opposite situation with a NIN tank and my SMN. I'm bursting, I'm buffing, I'm healing, I'm de-buffing, I'm doing group hateless curing/erase, I'm stacking Glitt ruby with Prot Shell, I'm pulling - all while having tons of mp even at the end of the chain. With a PLD tank they're either dead or I'm out of MP at a chain of maximum 3, that or there are FAR too many close calls.

Your Subjob is supposed to compliment your main job and vise versa. If you're not using either your main or your sub you're wasting a lot of great potential. I use my WHM sub a lot, but I also use my SMN main a lot too...this seems to fly right over your head. I"m wasting just as much of a slot in a party just using my sub as I am just using my main because i'm not playing JOBS properly. I have two jobs equipped and my parties run best when I'm using both of them.
 
Sabia I agree with you and I've stated repeatedly in this thread SMN are better for Nin and WHM are better for PLD.

I've also never said SMN is a "gimp whm". I have said you are a main healer. Your logic hasn't flown over my head, you just aren't reading what I'm saying. You're arguing iwth it then spitting it back out at me with different wording.

As for SMN and PLD and WHM and NIN. Like I say time and time agian. One is optimal but you won't always wind up in the best party setup ever. For example as WHM I am very often with a Ninja tank and that's just life. But a PLD tank and a SMN healer should be able to find an intelligent way to work together and not have there be a greaet danger. I mean seriously you don't >have< to fight spiders and you as well as the other mages in the party can modify your strategy accordingly. MY PLD has had countless SMN main healers including Svina and I can tell you we weren't struggling at all to keep me alive.
 
For all people who disagrees with Sanjo, well remember his words in your mind and keep on what you are doing. And then after becomming 70, come back to us and tell us what you are now. You see, if you read carefully what Sanjo stated, it is very easy to see what he is trying to say.

But then again, perhaps not. Why? Because you are that very job now and don't feel apretiated being flamed on what you are doing correct? Look at Sanjo. He plays a different job. "He saw his OWN SELF" in a party. A summoner stuborn and not main healing, which was the task he was given. He saw with his own eyes and remembered that once he was like him. Although he understood the concept of a summoner when he reached 70, having seen his past self in a party doing the exact things, has made him reconsider even more and felt glad he changed.

ITS NOT ONLY SUMMONERS! Its also true for rdm these days. Some stays the same, but most of them changes its styles. Usually this becomes more clear when you see others play your main job's role. You see how they suck... then you compare with yourself. Like if the rdm was meleeing all the time and not debuffing you might feel "God this rdm sucks... no wait he is doing the same thing as I was!? God I sucked" or perhaps not.

The reason I stayed as a back line rdm from 16~75, aka my entire career was not only I have not been able to go to the front line bacause I couldn't. I have left playing rdm once in a while, playing different jobs. At a point my monk went close to a rdm's levels and I saw many good and bad rdms. I have learned the mistakes or the good points of other rdm players and applied to myself. I have done a ton of mistakes as a rdm such as putting annoying <calls> in every single macro, putting debuff chats in /p's (now while this might be good to some extent, if you continuously do it the melees might miss TP report messages which I was told not to do. When I was a rdm I felt insulted. But when I have played a melee class which is my monk, I understood this very meaning. So now, my debuff macros, healing and refresh doesn't have any /p command. But has an /echo command. )

What we are trying to say is simple. Smn are one of the possible jobs to become main healers. There are only 3 accepted main healers which are Whm comming on top, summoners second and Rdm third. We are not saying to only heal. We are marely stating to use your blood pacts every minuits IF NECESARY and go to curing duty during the 1min blood pact cooling time. EVEN IF YOU HAVE CARBUNCLE FOR FREE, just send him to attack and you can resume your healing task. THIS is what we trying to state. What we DON'T want you to do is to spend your mp with USELESS blood pacts JUST TO SHOW OFF! and spend your entire MP for USELESS ACTIONS. This very thing is what we don't want YOU to do at the least on a pickup exp party. Was your 160 damage worth 80mp and 1min timer? Was your blinkga necesary fighting against the mandies? If the answer is Idon't know or no then don't waste your precious mp for it.

This is why summoners are pretty much forced into healing and healing only during the early levels since there aren't much blood pact usefull for its cost. You have almost no items that lowers your avatar upkeep cost except carbuncle. Austare gears are 50, The elemental staffs are 51, Evoker's ring is 71, Vermillion cloak is 59 (was it? lol). Think about it. We not trying to stop you from using your blood pacts. We trying to say use it wisely comparing it costs and its outcome. Also we want you to think about what position really fits in the party. If you think a DD, play a DD job. Compare your DD job of the exact level with your summoner. Then talk to us. If you think you are a good buffer, then try playing a rdm or a bard. Compare its spells and then come back to us. When you have learned OTHER JOB's abilities NOT JUST YOURS then you will understand much better.

P.S. When you are positioned in a main healers job, ask yourself this. If a tank falls its not only the main healer's fault. All other party members must backup each other. Thats why its called "PARTY". Cooperation people. When someone stated a sickleslash is nothing a summoner can do. Well "SUMMONER ONLY" cannot do anything. BUT! With other mages backing up can. Like Fire stated, Blm stuns, summoner, bard and pld CureIIIs. There 480 hp recovered while the spider is stunned (if resisted well thats just bad luck). Or try other? Pld Flash (almost guaranteed a couple of seconds they will miss), Blm Smn and brd cureIIIs. While the mob is blinded 480hp is recovered to the pld. The summoner can follow up with cures to fill his hp and pld repeat curing to regain hp and hate. There its all comes to team work.

I stated this before didn't I? Main healers are not the only healer in the party.
 
Sabia said:
I hate this argument and believe it was covered on the Flameboard some months ago.

Should summoners heal? YES! You shouldn't be sitting on your ass between your 1 min blood pact timer when your party members lives are in the yellow.

Should summoners also summon? YES! Sweet lord, summoners go through a lot of crap to get all those shiney little avatars and I'll be damned if I'm not going to use them.

Should you ask a summoner if they want to main heal if your expectation of them is to only main heal and not use avatars? Shit yeah. I'm a jack of all trades even without that purple puppy and never feel that I'm wasting the spot of a potentially usefull member, as I am a very useful member to my parties especially when I'm using my Bloodpacts. I've never really met a summoner that minded main healing unless it was either A) A PLD/WAR or a WAR/MNK as main tank or B) They were asked to not use avatars at all.

A) PLD/WAR and WAR/MNK tanks scare me. Cure III is great but when someone gets hit with a spider's scythe or a bat's jet stream it takes quite a few Cure IIIs to get their life back in the white. Those Cure IIIs have quite a bit of downtime between casts and I only get one Divine Seal every 10 minutes. Do you know how scary it is having a PLD tank in the Quicksand Caves at level 45, when you're the only party there and you're taking on Spiders? Sickle Slash + PLD + SMN as main healer with no Raise = Big Problems. I'm all about Main healing with a NIN or WAR/NIN tank and wouldn't even consider asking a WHM to join in this situation.

B) It's an awful lot of work to get those avatars and at our core we are summoners. We didn't choose the job because we enjoyed WHM, if we wanted to be WHMs we'd play WHMs. Main healing is great, I don't mind it at all unless it's like a point A situation and even then I'll bite the bullet. However - I've heard a lot of assholes invite SMNs to ONLY heal. This is like asking a RDM to only Refresh....actually it's worse because at least Refresh is a RDM spell. If you're inviting a SMN to only heal and bitch at them when they want to use some blood pacts this one goes out to you t(-_-t)

PS: Damn Cubs...You're lucky. Most of my staves were 150-220k! :x

Also to add to that expensive list of gear at 50-60 you can throw in a Steppe stone for 350k-500k at level 50. :cry:
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Wrong train of thought again... Yes, I do believe smn are a waste ofr a pt slot if they do not heal, unless there is a nin tank or such, and you are not a jack of all trades. It's like calling whm that because they can silence and haste. It's just not true. Even a whm has problems with sickles slash and such, and that is a problem for smn it's just a weakness. There are many mobs you can fight and many sane pt's make a point of avoiding bats and spiders. Normally there should be a rdm or bard, USE THEM. Since you can not cast cure 4, in emgerencies like that they should have no problem casting cure 4.

Also, smn that only heal are ok, smn that only summno are a waste of space. Yes, I know you went through all the trouble for them, but sad to say it was mostly a waste of time above all if all you are going to do is only use them. Now,a smart smn who works with the pt, as I did near the end, you know telling another mage to heal for a bit while you do BP, then come back to heal, that is a good smn. Please, don't tell me your hastega makes you worth an entire pt slot.
 
Sorry shia I must of missed your post, sorry for the double post.

All I have to say is:

Shia, I /kneel to you. ^^b {Thank YOU}
 
So, in summation, Summoners should both heal and use bloodpacts. Let's face it, if you're inviting a Summoner to your party, and then say "don't use any bloodpacts, just heal", you really should've just invited a White Mage. Blood pacts are the only things Summoners bring to the party that a White Mage doesn't. Summoners that refuse to main heal are indeed idiots. However, party leaders that refuse to let the Summoner use bloodpacts once a minute, (while still main healing) are also idiots. When I party with Summoners as my Black Mage, I have no trouble taking up healing duty for all of 20 seconds to let the Summoner actually be a Summoner. Others should do likewise. Summoners bring more to a party than their Whm subjob. They should use their Whm subjob frequently, just like Paladins have to use their Warrior sub. However, just like no Paladin uses nothing but provoke in a battle (or hopefully not), no Summoner should use only whm spells in a battle. To do so is only bringing half your potential to a party.
 
Very well said, Pomp.

And now that I think about it, maybe having both a SMN and a WHM in the same party doesn't work -that- well... maybe it would if we don't have a RDM or BRD, but it really depends on the party setup...

Also, if the tank is a good NIN blink tank, it's possible for the SMN to summon an avatar and let it melee a bit right before someone does a skillchain, then letting the avatar MB it. Ramuh's Thunder 2 does damage on par with a BLM's Thunder 2 when MBd. It may not be as MP efficient, but it's just as speed efficient, and SMNs already have less to worry about when it comes to MP costs (they gain back MP faster than other mages, so they can afford to spend a bit more to get the same results and not be a "weak link"). Of corse, it's not recommended to do that with a PLD tank, as they need more curing (and thus more MP) than other tanks.
 
Sanjo Renomitsu said:
Wrong train of thought again... Yes, I do believe smn are a waste ofr a pt slot if they do not heal, unless there is a nin tank or such, and you are not a jack of all trades. It's like calling whm that because they can silence and haste. It's just not true. Even a whm has problems with sickles slash and such, and that is a problem for smn it's just a weakness. There are many mobs you can fight and many sane pt's make a point of avoiding bats and spiders. Normally there should be a rdm or bard, USE THEM. Since you can not cast cure 4, in emgerencies like that they should have no problem casting cure 4.

Also, smn that only heal are ok, smn that only summno are a waste of space. Yes, I know you went through all the trouble for them, but sad to say it was mostly a waste of time above all if all you are going to do is only use them. Now,a smart smn who works with the pt, as I did near the end, you know telling another mage to heal for a bit while you do BP, then come back to heal, that is a good smn. Please, don't tell me your hastega makes you worth an entire pt slot.
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When did I say summoners should only summon? Because I don't remember ever saying this. I think it's been like 15 levels since I"ve actually partied with a main healer that wasn't me....hmmmm seems I don't have a problem main healing here. I"m just saying there are certain situations that summoners SHOULD feel very uncomforatable healing. You try going to the quicksand caves and killing ALL the beetles with there only being spiders left...and then telling your party to wait the 6 or so minutes for the beetles to pop again and not take any spiders...I'm pretty sure they'll laugh in your face. Or how about Hitting the Citidal and telling your party "I'm sorry...I think it's a bad Idea that we take on bats" "Well we can't take on beetles for another 2 levels".......good luck with that.

"Please, don't tell me your hastega makes you worth an entire pt slot."
Who the hell said I was only doing hastega? Do you think playing 51 levels of this job has made me retarded? Do I think my 300 points of damage with my Blizzard II burst, plus my blinkga for the mages at the begining of the battle (not every battle...only refresh when needed), my Stoneskin for my RNGs, DRKs and NINs, My MAIN HEALING and keeping the entire party alive and if I'm ending Chain 5's with 300+ MP left I will throw out a hastega especially if I have 3 Melee with dual weild and nobody else in the group has haste. Yeah...I'm really wasting a party slot... :roll:

You want to know what makes me uncomfortable? Playing 50 levels of main healer with no raise, being level 51 and having no Protect II in my parties as I static with a Bard not a RDM, having Divine Seal only usable every 10 min when my PLD is getting hit by Jet stream 3 times in a row. Last but not least, people expecting me to do everything a whm can do. I love main healing, I think it's a wasted slot in a party if I'm with a WHM and there's an appropriate tank.

People however need to realize my limitations as a main healer and this is where I think most of peoples problems come from. I DON"T have that emergency Cure IV...you WHMs say "Well I never use it." I call bull pucky on that...just because you don't use it often doesn't mean you don't use it at all....when someone takes a one shot and is red, you're partying with a BLM that refuses to heal because "He's a BLM" (this isn't my Blm...but it has happened when we were catching up to eachother) I"m pretty sure you're thankful for that cure VI.

I know my limitations and I know my job...along with all it's strengths and weaknesses. I know what my job is and I use it, along with my subjob. Bottom line is if you're not summoing you're a shitty summoner, if you're not healing...you're a shitty summoner.
 
Sabia, I'm thinking quite honestly you haven't PTed with many summoners besides yourself to understand the real problem I'm addressing. It's not SMN like you who main heal and have MP to blood pact too. That's the very reason I say SMN is an affective main healer.

I will continue to argue that Cure 3 is in fact better than cure 4 even in emergency situations. Less recast time, less cast time. For the most part with PLD the difficulty is finding an exact amount of HPs that they are safe at and have spare room to cure themself for hate. Spamming cure 3 can get any tank up to full extremely fast even without help.

Using blink on the mages? if I recall correctly at lvl 38 BLMs can blink themself if they want. WHMs can at 19, RDM can at 23. If a BLM is skilled as wel as tank they should at most take a hit once every 1 or 2 chains. Yes many are not skilled but it hardly seems smart to invite a member solely to cover the mistakes of overnukers and under vokers.

As for the question of getting to the camp and then stating you can't fight so and so mob, that is just quite frankly poor planning. Like for instance I'd have given you the advice to try hunting in Bosteouxe Leibinaent or whatever it's called under the San'doria castle. Right on the far zoneline with east ronfaire you fight "bat"s (singular bat) for intense lvl 50-52 xp. The best part is there's no jet stream. I mean you can't go to quicksand or go to citadel where you're already destined to be fighting more dangerous mobs and then tell them you will have trouble doing it. Plan ahead Sabia, check monster lists, find out what to expect.

Arguing against you is quite difficult because frankly you're saying the same god damn things I've been saying for 8 pages. That the abilitiy to use blood pacts is what sets SMN apart from WHM as their own style of main healer. And yes at times WHM may be better, but SMNj will still work. Juist like at times SMN may be better, but no one says
"omg we have Ninja wtf are we doing with your gimp WHM ass Firestreak? We better wait for a SMN!!!" Because I can do the job as well, albeit with less useful perks. Just like the reverse with you.

Edit: Oh yes you won't have Erase yet and bats there do cause evasion down, so I might suggest a PLD or WAR/NIN. As for DDs I'd really recommend a couple of RNG or a RNG and THF combo, because piercing seems to really kill those bats fast. As you already have SMN BRD and BLM there's no first voke there so either the RNG will have to hold hate or maybe best to just get a PLD and 2 RNG and skip the THF. Just some things you might want to think about when assembling your party.
 
Erase or Fenrir's Accuracy / Evasion up. This will cancel the evasion down aswell as protect from them. Similar to Lunar cry does evasion down and prevents any evasion up buffs. During 50-55ish or so, you can also go to KRT fighting bats, and if you get around 52, go to beetles in there. Needs a bit of breaking spawns at first but since they are sight agro it doesn't really matter. The only mob that agros throught that way are bats and scorpions.
 
Sabia said:
Sanjo Renomitsu said:
Wrong train of thought again... Yes, I do believe smn are a waste ofr a pt slot if they do not heal, unless there is a nin tank or such, and you are not a jack of all trades. It's like calling whm that because they can silence and haste. It's just not true. Even a whm has problems with sickles slash and such, and that is a problem for smn it's just a weakness. There are many mobs you can fight and many sane pt's make a point of avoiding bats and spiders. Normally there should be a rdm or bard, USE THEM. Since you can not cast cure 4, in emgerencies like that they should have no problem casting cure 4.

Also, smn that only heal are ok, smn that only summno are a waste of space. Yes, I know you went through all the trouble for them, but sad to say it was mostly a waste of time above all if all you are going to do is only use them. Now,a smart smn who works with the pt, as I did near the end, you know telling another mage to heal for a bit while you do BP, then come back to heal, that is a good smn. Please, don't tell me your hastega makes you worth an entire pt slot.
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When did I say summoners should only summon? Because I don't remember ever saying this. I think it's been like 15 levels since I"ve actually partied with a main healer that wasn't me....hmmmm seems I don't have a problem main healing here. I"m just saying there are certain situations that summoners SHOULD feel very uncomforatable healing. You try going to the quicksand caves and killing ALL the beetles with there only being spiders left...and then telling your party to wait the 6 or so minutes for the beetles to pop again and not take any spiders...I'm pretty sure they'll laugh in your face. Or how about Hitting the Citidal and telling your party "I'm sorry...I think it's a bad Idea that we take on bats" "Well we can't take on beetles for another 2 levels".......good luck with that.

"Please, don't tell me your hastega makes you worth an entire pt slot."
Who the hell said I was only doing hastega? Do you think playing 51 levels of this job has made me retarded? Do I think my 300 points of damage with my Blizzard II burst, plus my blinkga for the mages at the begining of the battle (not every battle...only refresh when needed), my Stoneskin for my RNGs, DRKs and NINs, My MAIN HEALING and keeping the entire party alive and if I'm ending Chain 5's with 300+ MP left I will throw out a hastega especially if I have 3 Melee with dual weild and nobody else in the group has haste. Yeah...I'm really wasting a party slot... :roll:

You want to know what makes me uncomfortable? Playing 50 levels of main healer with no raise, being level 51 and having no Protect II in my parties as I static with a Bard not a RDM, having Divine Seal only usable every 10 min when my PLD is getting hit by Jet stream 3 times in a row. Last but not least, people expecting me to do everything a whm can do. I love main healing, I think it's a wasted slot in a party if I'm with a WHM and there's an appropriate tank.

People however need to realize my limitations as a main healer and this is where I think most of peoples problems come from. I DON"T have that emergency Cure IV...you WHMs say "Well I never use it." I call bull pucky on that...just because you don't use it often doesn't mean you don't use it at all....when someone takes a one shot and is red, you're partying with a BLM that refuses to heal because "He's a BLM" (this isn't my Blm...but it has happened when we were catching up to eachother) I"m pretty sure you're thankful for that cure VI.

I know my limitations and I know my job...along with all it's strengths and weaknesses. I know what my job is and I use it, along with my subjob. Bottom line is if you're not summoing you're a shitty summoner, if you're not healing...you're a shitty summoner.
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You are taking things a bit too literal. Anyways, you are still wrong in a ways. You, as a smn, have no real weakness AS A HEALER, per say. I didn't say anything about not telling the pt to level in gar. or anything. If you have to go, and if you think you can not handle stuff like jetstream, which even whm have problems dealing with, then do not join. I'm sorry, but besides if there is a ninja or there no real need to heal, if you are in a pt you are a waste of space or filler due to lack of anything else.

If you have to, get a rdm or brd, to help you heal in those early cases, because being the smart people we hope we are, we forsee this, as clearly you do. Even as rdm in Boyada Tree our tank would die over and over, and yes he was a good tank. Our whm just couldn't keep cure 4ing him or keep his hp high enough at all times so the spider doesn't pull off a sickle slash + normal attack and kills the pld. EVEN WITH ME helping heal it was a problem at times, despite your healing power creatures with those type of abilities are a pain in the ass, so do yourself a favor and stop using those as an excuse. Any leader with a brain makes a point to avoid them, no one goes "Jeeze, lets fight spiders because crabs are much safer". The way you sound, it's as if you fight those types of mobs 1-75 :roll: I've only fought spiders in tree once, at 50's, and bats in gar. And I've gotten to 70 just fine.

Mages do not need your stoneskin and blink, they should not be getting hit. Even then, almost all of them can cast it themselves except int he lower levels. In which stoneskin and blink is even less of worth. It doesn't do the melee any real good either, you'd be using your mp to more worth with hasetga. I'm sure your bliz 2 for 300 damage on MB is amazing.... I'm sure it's worth anything more then a rdm's helpful burst to add that small little extra damage. In the end, all your BP are perks, as I have said, and I'm sorry. It's fact. With the 1 min limit none of your BP have enough value alone to warrant you useful in a pt, unless you have no reason to heal like a good ninja tank. It would be saying whm is worthwhile to invite just because of haste, silence, bar spells.. ect.. and because they can heal formost.

As for your calling on cure 4.. They speak the truth. Cure 4 is rarly used. I as a rdm only use it when I convert on myself, or when something goes wrong and someone needs life saving. Don't use that you have a bard as an excuse either. If you cure 3, and he cure 3's, the effect is about as good as a cure 4 >.>. It's true, whm hardly use cure 4, if you think that is bull from your own experiences, you might want to rethink just how good your pt's/static are/is, because the problem is far more likely in your team mates.

"You want to know what makes me uncomfortable? Playing 50 levels of main healer with no raise, being level 51 and having no Protect II in my parties as I static with a Bard not a RDM, having Divine Seal only usable every 10 min when my PLD is getting hit by Jet stream 3 times in a row. Last but not least, people expecting me to do everything a whm can do. I love main healing, I think it's a wasted slot in a party if I'm with a WHM and there's an appropriate tank. "

You are a smn, as people say. Dispel and refresh is NOT A RDM THING, because bards can do it too! If you think healing is a WHM THING, you are wrong. That is the point. You are a smn, not a whm. That has nothing to do witht he fact that you are main healer. To be truly honest, and I am not tying to be offensive,sounds like your group is pretty bad. First of all, any protect is better then none, even if you don't have a rdm, the pld can buff himself, and any important person like puller. -_- Second of all, you can do anything a whm can do that's any worth to a pt save a very very few things, which do not matter much. I'm talking like curing a few stats pre erase/spring water. Oh well most whm don't have erase anyways.

You shouldn't need raise unless something goes wrong, in which case (trust me, please stop complaining because I wish I could pt with whm as much as I want to, they are not exactly plentiful in my experiences as sam and rdm) you will just have to try and get a raise, or if you are 50+ deal with raise one. If you die a lot, your group sucks or someone is making stupid mistakes. Leave.

That's what I'm tying to put across, first of all you people were fighting over if smn are healers or not, good to know you agree at least sab.

End Point: Smn ARE main healers, and if you forsee a few choice problems like having to deal with jetstream, don't be stupid! Find another alternative xp spot, or prepare in advance, like making sure you have someone else who can cure.

Smn's blood pacts = whm's none healing abilities like silence, haste, viruna. Perks which makes each class different dispite both can main heal, like rdm and brd, nin and pld.

Being said, you should always expect to main heal! Learn to main heal AND buff. Why do you think people don't normally invite 2 pld's? You only need one tank! That second tank could be a ranger or drk, or a blm or rdm or whatever, and most pld will know that and leave. Of course, there are a very, very few exceptions.

I remember a ninja and pld in pt, ninja was god, we tanked 2 mobs at once, use -ga to do damage, and melee focus on one. When it dies, other is almost dead, finish off for nice xp. Bard has 2 more waiting. Repeat.

2 whm is pretty good in some pt's, so if you do join a pt with a whm don't expect you are free to melee and buff and leave healing to the whm... work something out like shift healing, just as 2 whm would!
 
I'm going to find that petition site, make one to make SMN's the job they are supposed to be, summoners, and make the avatars worthwhile, and fix this whole damn thing, summoners, should be summoners, SE hasn't given the avatars enough for it to be worth while to actually BE a summoner, so they turn to main healing, as most parties have you do, sure, some summoners like main healing, I do to, when I'm WHM. I want to do my job, my proper job. THF? SATA. WHM? Main healing. BLM? Nuking. SMN? and thus my point, summoners, aren't even summoners, they use there avatars for various buffs, and no more, maybe a few bursts, which can be worthwhile, if pulled off. Summoners, again, were meant for summoning, and sub healing, but, they are taken for main healing, again, because the avatars are only for buffs and bursts.

Sorry if I offended you in anyway, Sabs. :( didn't mean to, just my view on it.
 
what is the difference betweenr rdm and bard, and nin and pld. The safe few dif, as smn and whm, while doing the same thing
 
So Lokkin all main healers should be named "Whitemage," that is your complaint? Maybe if SMN was named WHM2 you'd be happy? Sorry I really don't get your point... that summoners suck as damage dealers and therefore no one should play them? That summoners should only show off and do cool looking bloodpacts all day? That only 1 job of 15 should be required in every single exp party?
Summoners are fine as they are, as when put in a correct party setup they are the most efficient main healer, and are able to do the task in most fuctional parties. Quit reading the Brady's guide god damn it Lokkin, use your own head to define what a person job is and what isn't.
Most important, think about the big picture Lokkin. All your whitemage buddies are gonna quit FF or hit 75 someday. Everyone with intention to play WHM will eventually finish their whitemage. Those popular jobs are going to continually become harder to find.

First off, there is a historical argument for Summoner as main healer in terms of FF. While it's true that, for example, Yuna would do powerful Aeon attacks, was there one character besides her that was given cure magic? I'll admit her avatars were way overpowered, but she was most assuredly the "whitemage" of FFX. Summoners have always had healing magic, and usually they were the main healer. The difference here is that those summoners could do ultra powerful attacks on a constant basis, summoners of FF can't. They get 1 thing alone that is really strong, and that's their 2 hour astral flow. Astral flow is definetly worth using. But flaming punch and axe kick ughh, [No Thanks.]

But all that is pointless. Stop arguing what you want SMN to be, and start coping with what they are.
 
Firestreak said:
So Lokkin all main healers should be named "Whitemage," that is your complaint? Maybe if SMN was named WHM2 you'd be happy? Sorry I really don't get your point... that summoners suck as damage dealers and therefore no one should play them? That summoners should only show off and do cool looking bloodpacts all day? That only 1 job of 15 should be required in every single exp party?
Summoners are fine as they are, as when put in a correct party setup they are the most efficient main healer, and are able to do the task in most fuctional parties. Quit reading the Brady's guide god damn it Lokkin, use your own head to define what a person job is and what isn't.
Most important, think about the big picture Lokkin. All your whitemage buddies are gonna quit FF or hit 75 someday. Everyone with intention to play WHM will eventually finish their whitemage. Those popular jobs are going to continually become harder to find.

First off, there is a historical argument for Summoner as main healer in terms of FF. While it's true that, for example, Yuna would do powerful Aeon attacks, was there one character besides her that was given cure magic? I'll admit her avatars were way overpowered, but she was most assuredly the "whitemage" of FFX. Summoners have always had healing magic, and usually they were the main healer. The difference here is that those summoners could do ultra powerful attacks on a constant basis, summoners of FF can't. They get 1 thing alone that is really strong, and that's their 2 hour astral flow. Astral flow is definetly worth using. But flaming punch and axe kick ughh, [No Thanks.]

But all that is pointless. Stop arguing what you want SMN to be, and start coping with what they are.
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No, my point is, Summoners should be able to do their proper job and SUB heal, but their proper job isn't much worth doing, thus a load of wasted time, thus you might aswell stick with whm, SE hasn't made the summons worthwhile for the time spent getting them.
 
Alot of FFXI jobs really doesn't fit well from their description. But this is due to history in the FFXI aswell as some are still under work. Take Ninjas for example. Ninjas are stealth assasins, but more of a spy in reality. But what we see in FFXI they are openly seen infront of the mob and not only that, tanking the mob... something completely the opposit of what they were. Summoners are one of the jobs which are more complicated. As you can understand, one Tweak in the summoner can make them unstoppable gods. Example, take the 1min timer off and they will become one supreme attackers, putting other attackes into shame.

See? Things has to be taken with precaution. Remember, the most important thing between jobs are balance. I agree, summoners has been given alot of tools but still lacking. But that I believe is to preserve balance from other jobs.
 
That is true Shia, but the case is, if they tweak it even a little bit, like 2 or 3 points of melee damage for the summons each, and an increased attack rate, it at least helps a little.
 
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