Wow the flameboard is gay now. BTW, Gear > Skill.

[CubsWoo]

Sure, why the hell not, take the Mahatma Cuffs too, even though there have been 2 sales in the last 8 months. Add another million. Doesn't really matter.

 

[ThisIsHamburgler]

Still... its a lot of millions... and WHM is more limited as to how they can make money...

-Ham :shock:

 

[CubsWoo]

Still... its a lot of millions... and WHM is more limited as to how they can make money...

-Ham :shock:

Ham... you know me. 90% of the gil I make has nothing to do with unsheathing a weapon. I'd venture to guess most of the people who make large sums of gil are just like that.

8) psst farming is for suckers 8)

 

[ThisIsHamburgler]

I know Cubs, but the problem is the advice most people give when telling others to make money is "farm, stupid"

Once people find a good way to make gil, they dont share it. Everyone that can make a million gil easily would never tell how they do it, thus leaving people not in the know out in the cold. I dont farm either, I craft. I could have had almost 300k today... but i "invested" it in crafting instead... I make decent gil though, not as much as I would like, but enough to sustain me.

At this point, I probably wouldnt be able to pick up a melee job and play it all the way to 75 just because of the high cost. I hope to get better at making gil, but until that happens my party will have to be content with all my spells and whatever gear I can afford (gear which I'm proud of BTW ^.^)

-Ham :shock:

 

[Seawolf]

Dude, Panda -never- said in her post that WHM is more expensive than other jobs, yet you Cubs turned this into a "WHM vs the rest" debate. You saw the words "WHM" and "expensive gear" and you jumped immediately into this matter like how flies are attracted to shit. Control your fucking thoughts please.

And perhaps you guys play this game -too damn much- that you lost your sense of what is expensive and what is not to the non-hardcore players out there.

 

[CubsWoo]

Dude, Panda -never- said in her post that WHM is more expensive than other jobs, yet you Cubs turned this into a "WHM vs the rest" debate. You saw the words "WHM" and "expensive gear" and you jumped immediately into this matter like how flies are attracted to shit. Control your fucking thoughts please.

And perhaps you guys play this game -too damn much- that you lost your sense of what is expensive and what is not to the non-hardcore players out there.

If you're going to bitch about a job being 'expensive' please make sure it's actually an expensive job next time.

I can say without hyperbole that I could sell the mid-level gear for either of the jobs I'm currently working on and have acceptable to high-end WHM gear all the way to 75.

And it wasn't hard to make the gil.

PS don't try that whole 'hardcore vs. casual' thing here, because I don't know too many 'casual' gamers who stick with this game past 35 or so. You want to play at the higher levels, bring the good gear or stop paying the $13 a month.

 

[Seawolf]

lol you're at it again. Again, this thread is not about WHM gears vs other jobs' gears. And read Panda's post again, dude. She didn't say WHM is an expensive job. She just said Vermy is an expensive gear.

PS don't try that whole 'hardcore vs. casual' thing here, because I don't know too many 'casual' gamers who stick with this game past 35 or so. You want to play at the higher levels, bring the good gear or stop paying the $13 a month.

Half of the members in my LS are married (half of them have kids, too) and have jobs. I can safely say that, until they can get some HNM actions, their gil pool will never exceed 500k unless they farm for a whole month. That's FFXI's casual gamers. Oh, and they're in the 50s now.

 

[Halifirien]

I'm one of those players who struggled with money. Silk threads and beehive chips were my main source of income for a long time because farming as a WHM sucks and I didn't feel like shelling out the extra gil to level a job which would be more effective.

Enter fishing. It's ideal for me. I have an airship pass and can teleport, so many areas of Vana'diel are open to me. I started crunching the numbers this morning and discovered that, provided everything sells at the AH in a timely manner, I could start from zero and be able to buy an Erase scroll in a week or so. Just from 60-90 minutes of fishing a day.

Suddenly I'm feeling much better about my future in this game.

 

[meeze]

wu longs shoes +1, seen them at 8 mil for monk, you left those out.

and /cheer to halflife. for not feeling sorry for himself and finding another way to make money. when i was farming alot of fishers in my ls would ask why, simply cause i thought fishing sucked, but once i turned what i was farming into cash, i turned to lvl'n crafts, and that is something i enjoy, and i can find profit in to turn around and lvl some more.
and as far as people not sharing how to make money...

go to alla, its made me rich, and my game wife uber rich. we both wake up in the morning check our mules and go about our day, at night check our mules go to bed repeat. once a month i collect about a mil, she's up to 3+ mil.

one thing i've noticed with broke people is there is always an excuse as to why they are broke. in my ls i offer tons of options for making money, as i have tried and succeeded at all. bcnm's check, farming check, fishing(short time) check, gardening check, buy low sell high check. if its made money i've done it. when i tell people about the stuff i do i get, "o, that wont work for me because <insert lame ass excuse here>"

best advice to make money, take 3 of your broke friends, all of you lvl your thf's to 20, you can pl each other pretty fast as strong as mnk is, and the money you can make off of fire crystals in ghelsba is more than enough to cover any gear you need to buy. then do bcnm 20's for astrals. its very simple, does not take rocket science.

 

[Darkdante]

Just because someone says they have skill that doesn't mean they have it.

I guess this thread would be all true if your only talking about jobs that just sit there and auto attk and after that do nothing, but complain about stuff and talk to thier friends. Personally I"ve never played a job to much extent that was like that so I"m not sure if there is one. Me I could never get hooked into a job if thats all it took.

Most of the jobs I play take most of my attention, and every party I have to play differntly, mostly because somebody is not doing something, or theres an add, or whatever. I call this skill, it takes skill to do things, in different parties with differnt people. It takes skill to make parties and it takes skill to make things go faster. It even takes skill to get the best gear, thats why not everyone has it.

Here is the definition of skill: An ability that has been acquired by training or experience.
How do you get the best gear without skill?

If there is a piece of gear out there that will make gear > skill please let me know because i've have never got it yet. Its probably gonna be a piece of gear that lets me watch TV do my HOmework and talk to my Girlfriend while playing FFXI. True there is gear out there thats makes the whole expierience better, and maybe even take you further than you could go without it. But it is never a replacement for it.

All the people you complain about is the proof to this fact. Just because someone says they have skill that doesn't mean they have it.

 

[vang]

No ronith, I said MNK should be mastered by level 1/2 (half) not level 1 or 2.

I picked level 55 because I knew crying would commence if it was any earlier. Believe me, you should know what your doing waaaay before that.

 

[Sethala]

Let me try to sum up this whole topic...

-People who say they don't need good gear because skill > gear are gimp.
-Just because someone has godly gear doesn't mean they're good at the game.
-Everyone would rather invite the skilled person with decent gear than invite the rich n00b (assuming both fill the same role in the party, of course).
-How much skill matters depends on what the job is - mages take far more skill than gear, while DD melee tend to take more gear than skill, for example.

I think we can all agree on those four, right?

As for melee being mindless...

I play DRK, level 61 now. I consider myself pretty good. I have decent gear - a sniper's and a venerer's, hauby, vassago's scythe, etc - there's more I can get, but what I have works for my level. But I can't just turn on auto-attack and fall asleep for the rest of the fight. I get to watch the mob and try to Provoke it if it goes for a squishy mage instead of the PLD. I have to watch my HP, and get behind the PLD if he needs to Cover me. And I need to watch for TP call macros. Plus I get all my magic - I have to decide when to cast which spells. And I have to manage my MP so I have enough to cast anything that's important, like Stun or Drain. And I get to debuff the mob with my Absorb spells. Sure, my job isn't as hard as most other jobs, such as RDM, BRD, PLD, WHM, BLM, etc. But that doesn't mean I can just turn on auto-attack and do nothing else.

 

[alanon]

Ya fire, its pretty much garenteed that they work for smn or something, but as for blm its not that noticable... at least not for me lol

btw... Firestreak is my idol ^.^ Tarutaru Power!

-Ham :shock:

Trust me, they difference is very noticable. I have a set of HQ staves and have been in manaburn parties with tarus where I was the lowest level and I would consistently do the most damage.

To the topis at hand, for me it's not so much gear > skill as it is exceptional gear&skill > skill. I think it was synical who said that most people endgame are skilled. I find this to be true for the most part. The only way to distinguish yourself is with your gear.

 

[Bajaratt]

Yeah, you seriously need to calm down cubswoo. At no point did anyone say that whm was the most expensive. And when you were calculating stuff, you were over pricing mnk gear and also giving mnk extra stuff anyways (seriously, how many mnk's have a fucking peacock charm?). Plus, you gave mnk some +1 equip (master's sitabaki +1), left out that some of it was quested stuff (Brown Belt), just tossed in some expensive equip for the hell of it(Emp pin), or stuff that can be obtained by nm camping (kotes), thus making it free; so you're jacking up the price of mnk just to prove your point. I've also only seen 2 mnk's with cross counters, the rest use other weapons, so that's hardly "expected" of them to have. Plus, mnk's use af too if I'm not mistaken, so just STFU with the whm bashing.

Either way it's moot, both jobs are expensive as hell if you have to get the best gear. That doesn't give you the right to bitch when whm don't have the means to get tons of gil and complain about it. So it's pointless to try to bring up that one job is more expensive than another, because we all know that rng and nin are like black holes for gil.

Back to the original purpose of this topic (which Cubswoo decided to utterly forget when he made his posts just to needlessly bash whm's), most people don't consider it gimped to have gear of an appropriate level. I like Meeze's post about if you're 60 to at least have the level 54 rings if you don't have snipers. It's not the best, but it's certainly ok for that level. As long as you have equipment of an appropriate level, skill > gear.

Once your gear starts getting out of date, then you start getting gimped, but it's not always the case. I used a white cape until blue cape, just because I didn't think that +2 int (red cape) or 10 mp at the cost of 2 mnd (aurora mantle) was worth the extra expense. I didn't hear a single comment on it, not one. So while lower level gear can usually mean that you're approaching gimpness, it's not always the case.

So, skill > gear, but skill doesn't excuse having gear that you should have upgraded before hand. It's like having a pld in the dunes wearing leather armor, it's obvious that he should have upgraded it as it will effect his performance at his job.

 

[Skaw]

wu longs shoes +1, seen them at 8 mil for monk, you left those out.

Thats because Dune Boots are more effective than wu longs. And I can honestly say I have spent no where near 31 million getting MNK to 75. Hell, I probably barely spent 3 million.

OMFG YES PEOPLE I LEVELED TO 75 TOTALLY AVOIDING SCORPION HARNESS, and damn proud of it. Overhyped peice of shit. Quested my brown belt, and farmed my O-Hat eyes.

 

[Anderithe]

Okay, it's not like I've had to shell out for a Scorpion Harness yet, but I do own over a million gil in gear without checking at 41.

I've constantly seen examples of how both gear and skill can both make a difference. The arguement to make isn't that both matter at all times, because to be honest they don't. Sometimes it's the equipment, and sometimes it's the skill. If you look closely, you will see when it matters. The basic point is the common sense the person has to notice what works and doesn't.

The biggest problem with players is they don't see it or they don't want to. If you examine the group you should be able to see what you need to use and do in it.

A good example would be to look at the Warriers that tank their way through the jungles:

1. It's the equipment that lets them take hits, combined with their job.
2. It's their abilites used effectively at the right time.
3. It's their damage, which is a combination of the two.

Now, if you want the best warrier IMHO the first thing you want is a Warrier/Monk. Sure, it's the most cookie-cutter, and it doesn't have the damage of a DRG/DRK sub or the shadows of a NIN sub, but the fact is it is the best for taking a hit and for keeping hate.

So part of it right off the bat is your subjob, a pick that should be made based on fact or the need of the pt, not preference. If someone want's to be a support tank/puller/dd then they can sub Ninja.

If they want to do nasty damage 20-29 sub Dark Knight or Dragoon. I've seen and used it in action at those levels, nice is an understatement.

This is the 'sense' of the person. Knowing what to use when, not just what to 'slap on'.

Then you have the weapon of choice. My own suggestion would be a Great Axe. A one-handed/lower skill weapon will not compete with a Warrier swinging a GA... this is also where equipment comes in. The Warrier should pick a weapon that not only suits him, but that suits the party.

A great axe will generate the most hate, and makes an excellent weapon for closing a skillchain. That is one of the big things about the GA through jungles people miss, it's not just more hate, but at the right times.

Such will help you keep hate the best when it comes time to chain and burst. Although, a good skillchain on madies will pretty much kill them off, it's better if they never turn... in case mage misses the burst.

Once again, it's a mix best sorted through sensably, although a GA doesn't always work out the best.

You then have your general equipment. I am a firm believer that armor matters. My Thief/Warrier ended up taking hits better then a lot of the morons through the jungles, and it was simply because I made sure I got myself the best armor... good thing since it lasted me until thirty. *Pre-prom junk*

That and most of the idiots never once had full chain.

Common sense would also dictate, a Warrier's main focus couldn't be entirely on defense, or he would lose hate. In other words, get sopme nice cheap +1 beetle earrings and some balacne rings. They go a lot further towards being a good tank then evasion earrings and vit+ rings.

If you get the good armor, you won't need the stuff, and it won't make/break you on def to get the acc/atk.

The last part is about the abilities. The thing that makes monk stand out the most as a tanking sub would be boost, and if you don't realize how to use it, get a clue. It is the same amount of hate I would credit to a single-handed weapon strike every 15 seconds. Ever hit a mob and see it turn towards you? I have, and I've seen boost turn it as well.

Then there is the point of voking at range of the incoming mob and not when it's on top of you. Not only does this give you initial hate and move you through your voke/boost cycle faster, but it jumps you to the top of the hate list quicker, meaning you have the chance to get an early lead on the rest of the pt and keep it.

..that and the (^$*^ puller will appreciate it you jackass slacker warriers in jungle..... *Sorry, rant of the thief here.*

A Warrier can generate a VERY solid amount of hate and cement it during the skillchain if he follows the above advice, which to be honest, is common knowledge in the game for the msot part. So why don't people do it?

To be different, because they are clueless, because they are gimped.

Each of which falls under the same category:

NO SENSE

Please everyone, stop trying to make a distinction based on an individual factor, we have all learned that a party is a multi-faceted gem of this battle-engione, and it takes sense above anything else to work it.

Just explain where people are clueless, not try to define them as merely a 'gimp' or an 'idiot'... they need to become aware of it is all.

As for the increasing asinine behavier of the JP population... *sigh* I don't like writing people off, but I'm not blind either... the world today really sucks.

 

[CubsWoo]

Yeah, you seriously need to calm down cubswoo. At no point did anyone say that whm was the most expensive.[/auote]

No, but what I did see was someone playing what I feel is one of, if not the cheapest, job in the game whining about one piece of equipment is perfectly reasonable to expect someone to have when you compare it to everything a melee has to buy just to be considered respectable.

And when you were calculating stuff, you were over pricing mnk gear and also giving mnk extra stuff anyways (seriously, how many mnk's have a fucking peacock charm?). Plus, you gave mnk some +1 equip (master's sitabaki +1), left out that some of it was quested stuff (Brown Belt), just tossed in some expensive equip for the hell of it(Emp pin), or stuff that can be obtained by nm camping (kotes), thus making it free; so you're jacking up the price of mnk just to prove your point.

If you can't get the item at the level you equip it, I don't see how it's 'free.' Besides, have you even looked at the Brown Belt quest? Not only do you need to finish the Purple Belt quest (both NM Rams on ~24 hour timers) but then you've got to get three MORE rare/ex drops, all on ~24 hour timers, and this time none of them are 100% drops. Check MNK forums on KI or Alla - people spend weeks at 60+ on that quest. I've seen people pay upwards of 100k just for a ToD on Morbolger. But anyway - even if we go best equipment vs. best equipment WHM is still way behind. The difference, once again, is that WHM can dick around in whatever gear they feel like (I have posted on this before, check my post archives) while melees are expected to be the best.

I've also only seen 2 mnk's with cross counters, the rest use other weapons, so that's hardly "expected" of them to have. Plus, mnk's use af too if I'm not mistaken, so just STFU with the whm bashing.

MNKs swap in AF for Focus/Dodge/Chakra/Chi Blast. Other than that, the AF is strictly worse than the other pieces you can get.

Either way it's moot, both jobs are expensive as hell if you have to get the best gear. That doesn't give you the right to bitch when whm don't have the means to get tons of gil and complain about it.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Ok.

Let me catch my breath.

Whms. Don't. Have. The. Means. To make gil.

I didn't know that one of the jobs that have this game by the balls in virtually every other aspect has the right to complain about having a slight disadvantage when it comes to the least efficient way of making gil.

Back to the original purpose of this topic (which Cubswoo decided to utterly forget when he made his posts just to needlessly bash whm's),

Nice straw man.

most people don't consider it gimped to have gear of an appropriate level. I like Meeze's post about if you're 60 to at least have the level 54 rings if you don't have snipers. It's not the best, but it's certainly ok for that level. As long as you have equipment of an appropriate level, skill > gear.

Wrong. If we're both level 60 Monks (all other things being equal), and I have 2 Snipers and a Scorpion Harness and you have 2 level 54 STR (or DEX) rings and Temple Cyclas, I'm going to hit more often than you, gain more TP, deal more DPS than you and, if you have any pride in your job, shame you into working towards better gear. But then again, you might just consider me 'too hardcore' and a 'gilbuyer' because all that skill sure helped your autoattack miss more often than mine did.

Once your gear starts getting out of date, then you start getting gimped, but it's not always the case. I used a white cape until blue cape, just because I didn't think that +2 int (red cape) or 10 mp at the cost of 2 mnd (aurora mantle) was worth the extra expense. I didn't hear a single comment on it, not one. So while lower level gear can usually mean that you're approaching gimpness, it's not always the case.

'Skill' would have told you that 10MP > 2MND, especially when the extra cost is... what, 10-15k?

So, skill > gear, but skill doesn't excuse having gear that you should have upgraded before hand. It's like having a pld in the dunes wearing leather armor, it's obvious that he should have upgraded it as it will effect his performance at his job.

Leather armor is fine in the Dunes... I'm guessing you meant Yhoator when Beetle, Chain and Eisen gear are all strictly better.

 

[Kelsilv]

(both NM Rams on ~24 hour timers)

Huh? Is this a recent change or something? I did this quest way back in the day, actually camping two of each NM ram since Krius and I partnered up for this quest. I don't recall it being anywhere near a 24 hour pop.

 

[Bajaratt]

You mentioned that the brown belt quest is hard. I'm well aware of this, I'm doing it myself to get a brown belt for my monk. Regardless, the equipment CAN BE FREE, if you're willing to take the time for it. And the NM rams for purple belt aren't on 24 hours timers, the normal NM's spawn a couple times a day; the HNM rams, steelfleece and bloodtear are the 24-hour pops, but they also drop the horns. Brown belt asside, you're still jacking up the price of mnk gear to prove your point.

MNKs swap in AF for Focus/Dodge/Chakra/Chi Blast. Other than that, the AF is strictly worse than the other pieces you can get.

I've seen mnk's in full af gear before that did perfectly fine. They didn't change it out for an ability, they fought in it. So it can be done, and it often is. Not everyone has millions of gil to spend on their equipment, like you aparently do, so they have to make do with what they have and just get decent equip.

Wrong. If we're both level 60 Monks (all other things being equal), and I have 2 Snipers and a Scorpion Harness and you have 2 level 54 STR (or DEX) rings and Temple Cyclas, I'm going to hit more often than you, gain more TP, deal more DPS than you and, if you have any pride in your job, shame you into working towards better gear. But then again, you might just consider me 'too hardcore' and a 'gilbuyer' because all that skill sure helped your autoattack miss more often than mine did.

Yes, you'll obviously hit more often than me, I never said you wouldn't. You keep making blind assumptions based on what others say, a lot of which seem to be wrong. I simply said that I expect them to at least have the level 54 rings, because that's a reasonable expectation to have. And you having better gear than me isn't going to shame me into getting better gear. Everyone works towards getting better gear, anyone who wants to do well, myself included. I don't really care what you have, beyond curiosity, as long as you dont have equip that you really should have replaced long ago. But expecting me to spend millions on equip or you consider me "gimp" is unreasonable.

Quote:
Once your gear starts getting out of date, then you start getting gimped, but it's not always the case. I used a white cape until blue cape, just because I didn't think that +2 int (red cape) or 10 mp at the cost of 2 mnd (aurora mantle) was worth the extra expense. I didn't hear a single comment on it, not one. So while lower level gear can usually mean that you're approaching gimpness, it's not always the case.

'Skill' would have told you that 10MP > 2MND, especially when the extra cost is... what, 10-15k?

I fail to see how skill comes into play there. The skill people are refering to throughout this topic is how well they play their job, not their buying skill. 10 mp vs 2 mnd is a judgement call, simple as that. I liked the +2 mnd, and i've never said "damn, I wish I had just 10 more mp."

Leather armor is fine in the Dunes... I'm guessing you meant Yhoator when Beetle, Chain and Eisen gear are all strictly better.

No, leather armor is not fine in the dunes FOR A TANK. Again you're not reading what people are writing, at most you're skimming it and then making assumptions. Tanks should have at least the NQ of the highest def gear their level. Scale equip is cheap, so they should have it. If I see a pld wearing leather gear in kazham, either he's buying new gear or I'm gone.

 

[Mishaela]

I've been abridged...again. My posts are too big? D:

How the f-!k can you throw in Peacock Charm when you said you weren't gonna include stuff never on sale, especially when Serket Rings almost always have 1-3 in stock? /slap

Also, what the crap are you smoking? The rams aren't 24-hour pops, they're more like 2 hour pops, otherwise Purple Belt's cost would be out the roof.

If you wanna play smartass and throw out crap despite that the class probably wouldn't use it except novelty porposes (PC), fine, how about this -
Light/Dark Staff - about 400k total
Darksteel Maul - 40k, OR Purgatory Mace - 1mil
Holy Shield - 170k
Full Blessed set with Noble Tunic - 26mil
Every whm spell - roughly 2mil
Serket Ring - 2mil
Astral Ring - 600k, or if you want, Vivian Ring, many many mil more
Holy Ampulla - ~80k
Astral Earring - ~1-2mil
Penitant's Rope - 800k
Errant Cape - ~8mil

Now shut up.