You don't have to cheat to be sucessfull at end game!!!

[Elemmire]

She makes up for that MP with XD.

you're a fucking retard, that comment doesn't make a damn ounce of sense.. fuck off with your PC+1 comments, mkay? Go do that in the PC+1 thread.

 

[Uzor]

im not going to attempt to have an intellectual conversation with someone who claims their stoneskin has lasted 3 wings. im sorry. lol

It depends what wing she means... Shellra V + static earring ftw. There's more magic defense gear you can get. I wouldn't be surprised if stoneskin would last more then 4 wings.

 

[Courtney]

you think that.. but from what I've seen, personal experience, people with lower enfeebling skill has had the same success rate as my higher enfeebling skills.. people with as low as 250 having the same success rate with my 320ish (depending on gear) and even with right staves.. well.. it gets annoying.. :\ and I do know about the potency, I'm more annoyed with the success rate I keep seing being the same.. -_- SE needs to fix that I think.. RDM was meant to specialize in enfeebles, and by damn, we should be the best of the best :\ or I DEMAND EQUAL NUKE POWA AS BLM XD

Like many other things Enfeebling accuracy has both a floor and a cap. At the floor, it doesn't matter how little enfeebling skill you have, you're still a chance of landing an enfeeble. At the cap it doesn't matter how much more Skill you add, your resist rate still stays the same. Which is why I said on mobs with 20-80% success rates for enfeebles (although it's probably more like 10-90% but there are no exact figures) Skill makes a difference.


Examples of floors. As a RDM/WHM I have mostly had 0 staff skill (it's 9 now, but it might as well be zero). I can still hit VTs although only about 10%. based on my accuracy, mostly derived from skill, I should never hit them. Likewise on pretty much any mob that can be enfeebled, you're a chance of landing an enfeeble no matter how woeful your skill is.

eg our NIN/DRK at Tiamat will spam Sleep at Tiamat for hate, and it will land several times a fight, even though he has miserable skill. My success rate is about the same (without ES, which seems to break a lot of accuracy rules), because we're both at the floor. Silence on Gods is similar. At 298 Skill and a NQ Staff I could land Silence about 1/15 (although I had landed 2/3 and 3/5). Now with 333 Skill and a HQ Staff it's still about 1/15, and a BLM or WHM (or anyone) is probably going to have about the same success rate because we're all still at the floor.


Examples of ceilings. I don't hit stuff often, but look at any sushi/meat debate and you'll see that there is a point (somewhere in the 90%s) where adding further accuracy stats no longer increases your % hit rate. You're at the accuracy cap, and it isn't 100%. It's the same with enfeebles.

eg, On basic Dynamis mobs (ie basic city mobs) a BLM Sleepga will nearly always put everything to sleep. BLMs are at the accuracy cap for sleep on these mobs, and a RDM with capped enfeebling won't do any better. On tougher mobs though, where the BLM isn't at the cap, RDMs are superior. In Xarca on WHM and PLD mobs (eg at the 7 eyes) the same BLM Sleepga will leave a lot of mobs running around. RDMs have far greater success sleeping these because of higher Skill.


On some mobs enfeebling is luck, on some mobs anyone can enfeeble, but there are a lot of mobs (particularly endgame) noone else can enfeeble with the same success AND potency as we can.

 

[Uzor]

eg our NIN/DRK at Tiamat will spam Sleep at Tiamat for hate, and it will land several times a fight, even though he has miserable skill. My success rate is about the same (without ES, which seems to break a lot of accuracy rules), because we're both at the floor. Silence on Gods is similar. At 298 Skill and a NQ Staff I could land Silence about 1/15 (although I had landed 2/3 and 3/5). Now with 333 Skill and a HQ Staff it's still about 1/15, and a BLM or WHM (or anyone) is probably going to have about the same success rate because we're all still at the floor.

; you often get resisted with Sleep on Tiamat? <.<

I slept him quite often...

 

[hellstorm]

GTFO...

You do realize Baja is a cat and I'm a dhalmel. And unlike some RDMs, I enfeeb in the proper max setups for the appropriate stat...

As Elem said this is just SE stupid luck system in action.

was being sarcastic. So tench around here chill. Also proper max say what?

 

[Courtney]

; you often get resisted with Sleep on Tiamat? <.<

I slept him quite often...

I don't sleep him often enough (with 325 Skill, which is what I had when I did most Tiamat's) to be relied upon. On occasions we needed to sleep him BLMs use an ES order which nearly always lands. Mine is significantly less that 50% and feels like it could be as low as 10% (admittedly with not many samples). It's possible that's because the NIN spamming sleep increases it's resistance, which was added a few updates back, although we have always believed that it's successful sleeps that raise it's resistance.

 

[hellstorm]

hellstorm, again:

I actually said the Errant Houppelande is one of the pieces that can be replaced by Crimson Scale Mail seeing as Yigit has been introduced, albeit after I quit. It is certainly a good piece to use when nuking due to the INT bonus, though for low resist mobs it is likely the extra stats it provides will make only a slight difference (if any) to enfeebling spells; in which case Dalmatica is more suitable. Errant or Mahatma can’t be completely ruled out though, as it still has –Enmity. I’m generalizing with a lot of this and different situations may require different setups, though if you really needed the stats you could simply swap out other slots. Oh, and there are still better pieces for solo than W.body.

That said, Crimson to RDM is not as Osode is to BRD. I don’t pretend to know a lot about BRD, but the –Enmity on Errant and the exact same stats (even more on Mahatma!) would seem to make it more useful for end-game encounters. And no, meriting is not end-game.

More on Dalmatica; even if Refresh and Haste don’t take up much MP, if you’re casting on quite a few players it may take up more than you’re getting back through Refresh/Ballad/whatever; Dalmatica helps to lighten this. You’re not necessarily ‘wasting’ MP by not using Convert every 10 minutes, in fact I find the opposite is true and players prefer to prolong each convert as much as possible so it can be used when actually needed; it’s not as if you’re going to dump your MP every 10 mins to do this. This practice is different while meriting of course, but again … not end-game!

With regards to MDB: I have not mentioned Magic Defense Bonus in any of my posts, and personally I don’t consider it to be a big factor in using the item; I would use Dalmatica for the Refresh alone. Despite this, it still has some use on certain attacks, whereas –Breath damage % has almost none. –3 Enmity too, is actually useful, whereas -10% to breath damage is not a plus in any way; unless you suffer from enormous amounts of L2P and are constantly standing in breath zone.

I’m sure some of this has been repeated now… try actually reading the post, you might take in more than a few words.

Edit: imisible isn't even a fucking word. l2stopmakingshitup?

still hanging on the -3 enm. Do you use your errant for healing even if you don't have dalmatica? I think not. That would be the only thing the -3nm would help. (even then not much) You honestly had have some terrible tanks if you was pulling hate any any ls event.(exception tank died) Oh and btw you keep forgetting about this puppy warlock tabard +1

Now lets look at the errant body

and look at kirin odose
and look at crimson mail

riddle me this; what make the kirin odose more elite to bard then crimson does to rdms. Now before you start look. For bard you get 10mnd 10cha and 30mp that help them on the kirin odose, but you get all that but the 30mp on the errant body. Now look at crimson mail 10int/mnd 40mp/hp. Again no difference in the int and mind part but you do get 40mp/hp. I never seen a thread about you argoing about brd with the -3enm. Which a brd can get hate lot easier then us rdms.

As for the convert part. what the most you will haste and refresh my guess would be in a party of pld/pld/whm/whm/smn/rdm (which is pretty rare) that be 6 refresh and if the whm refuse to haste 2 haste. How much mp do you have? depending on sub and gear I can have anywhere between 690-980mp {(don't have smn sub or river gaiters) (980mp I have 947hp with only 2 zenith item equip and i have no hp>mp rings just tamas)} The point im getting at if you hasting and refreshing that many people you not going have time do anything else except maybe get a bio or slow in ever now and then because soon as you refresh/haste last person your refresh will be or about to be running off. Also prolonging convert if you not using your max pomposity of mp without dalmatica why do you need dalmatica all the time. There are time dalmatica would be useful like if running out mp before convert. Assault with 4 people where you have to heal 3 other non tank jobs from moves like firespit. Yet I disagree it the all elite body for rdm.

As for the mdb someone said it not sure who and never said a name. sorry if you thought it was directed at you. Then there that -3enm again.

As for Enmity > all... I dissagree. I don't use enmity that much on anything since I rarely pull hate.

that pretty much sum it up. If it make you feel better I do wear penitents rope and tamas which give me -6enm. Course I have them because of the int/mnd and mp not the -enm. Breath attack is situational sure chances are you wont need it but if for some reason it turns or something happen it would help. Or in cases where ouryu flying blm pull hate and blows your way. Though you right it minor trait just as minor as -3enm on errant for are 236-700 blizzard 3.

 

[Tailss]

Uh Osode is pretty much trash for bard on anything big so I dont see your point.

 

[hellstorm]

Uh Osode is pretty much trash for bard on anything big so I dont see your point.

and rdm would us warlock body(af) for big stuff.

 

[Bajaratt]

and rdm would us warlock body(af) for big stuff.

Welcome to what people have been saying for days now, to you. You're the one that's saying that crimson body would be heavily used, you have yet to actually prove why. While YOU might use crimson body for just about everything under the sun, the intelligent rdm's use different pieces for different situations.

 

[Firestreak]

Since I kinda started this argument going to clarify my position here becuase it's getting polaized here.

I'm not saying there's no use for dalmatica. Anything that's the best at any specific situation has use. I'm only saying it's not a very big deal and people are putting too much stock in it. It's improvement is very minor and in most cases it's stats don't actually create an improvement. People with it tend to overuse it to the point that it actually hurts them because it's a swap-piece and they don't swap with it, just wear it to show it off. Furthermore, it's pretty common so it's not a big deal to get. All I'm saying is people who throw in A Body alongside M body and E body make me laugh, cause they're not comparable... one piece is arguably worth doing endgame for another isn't by any stretch of the imagination. That's all.

 

[Courtney]

still hanging on the -3 enm. Do you use your errant for healing even if you don't have dalmatica? I think not. That would be the only thing the -3nm would help. (even then not much) You honestly had have some terrible tanks if you was pulling hate any any ls event.(exception tank died) Oh and btw you keep forgetting about this puppy warlock tabard +1

riddle me this; what make the kirin odose more elite to bard then crimson does to rdms. Now before you start look. For bard you get 10mnd 10cha and 30mp that help them on the kirin odose, but you get all that but the 30mp on the errant body. Now look at crimson mail 10int/mnd 40mp/hp. Again no difference in the int and mind part but you do get 40mp/hp. I never seen a thread about you argoing about brd with the -3enm. Which a brd can get hate lot easier then us rdms.

You're completely missing the point.

For casting on a mob, (which is 95% of the time that you will used INT/MND gear) 10INT / 10MND / -3Enm > 10INT / 10 MND. The stats are the same, but the Errant has -Enm AS WELL.

As for the BRD question, I'd assume that because the BRD has a very limited MP pool, that having more MP would be an advantage because you would spend less time at full MP allowing you to regenerate more MP over time. I know BRDs who do use errant for the -Enm, but I know more BRDs who prefer Dalmatica over both because of the MP regeneration.

I also think that you have no idea about endgame (or any game) responsibilities if you believe that hate management is purely the tanks responsibility. Tanks maintain as much hate as possible while taking as little damage as possible, and its then up to the rest of the group to be as effective as possible without taking hate. Especially, in a Linkshell environment, it's up to the individual members to do their jobs without pulling hate, and in a lot of cases that means -enm gear.

As for the convert part. what the most you will haste and refresh my guess would be in a party of pld/pld/whm/whm/smn/rdm (which is pretty rare) that be 6 refresh and if the whm refuse to haste 2 haste. How much mp do you have? depending on sub and gear I can have anywhere between 690-980mp {(don't have smn sub or river gaiters) (980mp I have 947hp with only 2 zenith item equip and i have no hp>mp rings just tamas)} The point im getting at if you hasting and refreshing that many people you not going have time do anything else except maybe get a bio or slow in ever now and then because soon as you refresh/haste last person your refresh will be or about to be running off. Also prolonging convert if you not using your max pomposity of mp without dalmatica why do you need dalmatica all the time. There are time dalmatica would be useful like if running out mp before convert. Assault with 4 people where you have to heal 3 other non tank jobs from moves like firespit. Yet I disagree it the all elite body for rdm.

As for the mdb someone said it not sure who and never said a name. sorry if you thought it was directed at you. Then there that -3enm again.

that pretty much sum it up. If it make you feel better I do wear penitents rope and tamas which give me -6enm. Course I have them because of the int/mnd and mp not the -enm. Breath attack is situational sure chances are you wont need it but if for some reason it turns or something happen it would help. Or in cases where ouryu flying blm pull hate and blows your way. Though you right it minor trait just as minor as -3enm on errant for are 236-700 blizzard 3.

If all you're doing is hasting and refreshing with an odd Dia or Bio thrown in, then it doesn't matter what gear you'll wear, you won't run out of MP. You're also a bad RDM. 6 refresh and 2 haste will take about half you're casting time, not all of it. Sure if you only cast half the time, you'll never run out of MP. There's so much more a RDM contributes above haste and regen, (and in that hypothetical situation a BRD is going to haste and Refresh far more efficiently than a RDM anyway).

Crimson is not good for convert because it lengthens the time you're out of action while converting. Convert swaps your CURRENT HP for your TOTAL MP, so if you're subbing in a Crimson Body, you've got to save MP and cure to full HP before you convert, or you don't get any benefit. This takes you out of the action for longer, which is almost certainly a bad thing in any tough fight. (Unless of course you're still wearing the damn Crimson mail full time when you still haven't provided a single example of it being the best body piece in any situation).

And noone says you need Dalmatica all the time. It's the best body piece for ~75% of what we do though, so it's on 75% of the time. Crimson just isn't the best for any situation in endgame, and it's sad that you consider yourself an endgame RDM and need this stuff explained to you...

 

[hellstorm]

well if you see it that way fine. That why they make so many diffent body and it ovious you made your mind as well ive made mine

 

[hellstorm]

Welcome to what people have been saying for days now, to you. You're the one that's saying that crimson body would be heavily used, you have yet to actually prove why. While YOU might use crimson body for just about everything under the sun, the intelligent rdm's use different pieces for different situations.

reread you will notice that every time I say crimson body it followed by (low resist mobs) or combine with alt cape and nash legs. Never once saided it was better then warlock body I love my warlock tabard +1 would not trade it for anything.

 

[Bajaratt]

reread you will notice that every time I say crimson body it followed by (low resist mobs) or combine with alt cape and nash legs. Never once saided it was better then warlock body I love my warlock tabard +1 would not trade it for anything.

It's a very recent addition to your position, because I remember having to bring up AF body the first time this discussion started. I wouldn't be surprised if your posts are edited, either.

Edit: you're still not showing that crimson is in anyway better than errant for low level parties; just that you'd wear it. It might as well be for aesthetic reasons, which people could get behind(errant is ugly as sin) but you're trying to say it's better by focusing on stats that you would almost never use. Against exp mobs, soloing, high-level endgame, whatever; crimson's only worthwhile stats is easily replaced by more readily available items.

 

[hellstorm]

It's a very recent addition to your position, because I remember having to bring up AF body the first time this discussion started. I wouldn't be surprised if your posts are edited, either.

Edit: you're still not showing that crimson is in anyway better than errant for low level parties; just that you'd wear it. It might as well be for aesthetic reasons, which people could get behind(errant is ugly as sin) but you're trying to say it's better by focusing on stats that you would almost never use. Against exp mobs, soloing, high-level endgame, whatever; crimson's only worthwhile stats is easily replaced by more readily available items.

same case for brd and kirin odose. Let me ask you this would we be having this same convesation if rdm could wear kirin odose?

 

[Uzor]

same case for brd and kirin odose. Let me ask you this would we be having this same convesation if rdm could wear kirin odose?

BRD's don't use Kirin's Osode that much. They only use it as e-peen... While yes, the MP on it is good, it's not like its the best item available for BRD:wacko: Kirin's Osode is good for a RNG with Holy Bolts <.<; Although I dunno if there's other items available for a RNG that's better since my RNG is only 43

 

[delsus]

BRD's don't use Kirin's Osode that much. They only use it as e-peen... While yes, the MP on it is good, it's not like its the best item available for BRD:wacko: Kirin's Osode is good for a RNG with Holy Bolts <.<; Although I dunno if there's other items available for a RNG that's better since my RNG is only 43

STR helps x bow
AGI helps bow

RNG JSE from cop thing is nice +7 attack
RNG AF body +10 range acc
RNG AF 2 is okish
all i can think of right now

 

[neophytal]

dont forget hellstorm is the same rdm that use to sport the wise gear.... weeeeee big surprise, wearing sucky pieces

 

[Marajade]

Kirin's Osode is good for a RNG with Holy Bolts <.<; Although I dunno if there's other items available for a RNG that's better since my RNG is only 43

Osode was the #1 piece of body gear for RNG, and while Kyudogi+1 is better, its still nigh-attainable.

And osode on BRD is junk. Its for meriting, maybe, if you dont have Yigit body/Manteel. Errant has the same relevant stats (MND and CHR) with the -3 enmity which is usefull because songs are rather high on the hate ranking relatively.