You don't have to cheat to be sucessfull at end game!!!

Boticles must be really successful now, he's claimed 50% of his shell's fafhoggs!

Edit: Yes, 1 person was removed from CK for fleetooling.
 
It doesn't matter if individuals in endgame cheat or don't cheat. As it stands now, for the most part anyway, endgamers are all viewed as cheaters by guilt through association. Since you needn't run the hack yourself, only directly benefit from one to share the stigma of cheating, there aren't many who can claim a spotless rep now. "Directly benefit" is a pretty nondescript bringer of guilt, as there's no clear line to draw. The only way to safely preserve your good name, if it even matters anymore, is to stay out of endgame in the first place.

On another note, will it matter keeping a "good name" now? I mean, when everyone was trying to pretend they weren't a lousy cheater, one made a good rep based on following all the rules. Now, the cat's out of the bag. If the cheaters are the majority now, will the definition of a good reputation be amended to allow cheating? After all, when in Rome do as the Romans do. Since the Romans are apparently hacking to get anything worth being proud of, will the minority of the population have to follow suit? I mean, if any game is a a sheep mentality gone too far, XI is. We pick arbitrary rules on how every job should play, on how every activity should be conducted, and we blackball anyone with a hint of individuality. Now the rebels are the legit players. Hack or be Blisted? At one point, you couldn't get into an endgame shell if you didn't have Sky and a level 70+ job. Maybe Mr Argus will be added to those requirements?
 
Thanks for the post Kink, I'm happy that Rawr isn't alone out there with some integrity. I think it's sad that the people that cheat can still try to look down on us and muddle up the post by saying things like "there's no way 0% of your members cheat". I guess they're not used to having such wonderful people you can trust in your shell.

Some shells will look the other way or may encourage it, that's the bottom line, and some (apparently rare shells from what I'm reading in here) have ZERO tolerance for it.

I apply to the "Live and let live" policy, so you can play how you want to play, I'm not going to debate that part, but don't try to cast doubt on perfectly good shells just because your morals aren't the same and you might feel guilty about it or just don't understand how people with morals can play the game. And don't try to play with me, I prefer to hang out with people that do things by following the rules and using good strategy and using their brains. I'd rather not be put in the situation of being around you if you're a cheater. Just my personal preference there.

The people that cheat take a big chance when they're cheating, they know that eventually they could get caught and all that they've worked for could be gone. I don't feel sorry for them when it happens because they know the risks. I just think it's pointless. Why do it over gear or to run fast or think that you're cool? I don't get it at all. I would rather walk around with crappy gear and have fun than feel like I'm just cheating my way to the top, I couldn't feel any sense of accomplishment for that. It would be pointless for me to play if I had to cheat to do it. I would rather read a book.

How can you walk around and feel like a badass with gear that you just basically pulled out of thin air? Who cares that you're all "pimped out" with the best when you didn't do anything for it? It's like those rich kids that run around breaking their ferraris every two days for the hell of it, they have no appreciation because they didn't have to work for it. That attitude just sucks.

Anyway, I'm tired. I just wanted to give a big THANK YOU to Kink for letting people know that yes, some end game shells still have their integrity, and yes, some end game shells DO NOT CHEAT WHATSOEVER. I don't care what any of the naysayers on here think, come into my shell, spend a few months with a good shell and you'll see the difference. I'm not being merely naive...it really is out there, and it does really exist. If you think that EVERYONE has to cheat, look in the mirror, it's probably because you yourself has to cheat, so you can't imagine a world where people don't.

/cheer Kink, there is hope.
 
Shyrra said:
Honestly, as it's been stated, there's no way for you to prove no one in CK has cheated. I'd go so far as to guarantee at least someone in CK has hacked. Plus, look at CK's success compared to those that do bot, they have much less success. There's something to be said for being clean, but there's also something to be said for having the good gear, killing the strongest mobs, etc. Just my 2 pesos.
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If your definition of success is gaining gears by using bots to claim, keep that success for yourself, i want none of it.

CK hasn't claimed many fafnir/nidhogg but the ones we claimed are worth way freaking more than all the ones that have been claimed by morons who bot. When you're up to the point of people in a linkshell being embarassed to talk about their LS to their friends cause they're ashamed of what's going in there, I think there's a problem. And I DEFINATLY don't call this success.

Now you wanna talk about success? Claiming Nidhogg withoug botting and killing him on our first try, that's success. Getting Jorm down to low HP, and knowing we can kill it if we don't CFH by mistake, that's success. But mostly, building a shell and an environment free of those freaking hacks, doing our best to keep it that way and still compete with other end-game shells who admit they're botting. That's freaking success right there.

Am I sure 100% that we have no botters in our shell? Nop. However, I am damn sure that we're on the look-out for them and that if we ever catch one, that person's pearl is broken on the spot. Not many end-game LSs can say that right now.

I really suggest you reconsider your definition of success, cause it's really poor right now.
 
I will. :) It's who I am, and I trust the people I associate with. I'm sorry that not everyone can say the same.

I'm really not a fighter, I just wanted to make sure that Kink knows that her shell is not alone and to let people that may be discouraged about endgame know that there ARE other options out there. You don't HAVE to cheat. It's not a fabrication, it's a reality, as much as everyone else would hate to think that there are really people /gasp, actually playing the game without cheating...

I do think it's sad that shells that don't cheat turned into such a rarity though because so many people decided easier was better... :(

Oh well, we'll keep doing what we're doing, regardless of how others may think of it as a fairytale...
 
RoM said:
So, much like rappa, i'm not out to be a giant dick here or anything but i'm always hearing about this whole 'sense of accomplishment' and how it makes having the gear better. This leads me to ask the question when the game goes down the pipes and some of you are 4-5 years or better in to your sense of accomplishment and get the rug yanked out from under you which bridge are you jumping off and where does the line form?
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I am one of those "I want to earn everything I have" people, and I spent a year and a half in Celestial Knights so I am pretty sure I understand where Kink is coming from on this. I'll have to answer your question in two parts though.

The first part of my answer is this. When they shut the servers down and FFXI is no more there are only two things that every player can take with them, cheater and non-cheater alike. Memories and friendships. During my time in FFXI I'm met some really awesome people, that I would never have met otherwise. I've spent many many hours interacting with these people both in Vana'diel and outside of it. Some of the people I consider to be true friends. People like Nyyankee, Daodao, Zylia, Firebrand, Enz, Anaeran, Rsouljah, Rimare, and LOTS of others (if I didn't name you, it doesn't mean anything!). Friends to the point where if they were traveling through the Oklahoma City area and needed a place to crash for the night or needed someone to show them around town, I wouldn't hesitate to help them out. Some of my favorite memories, including "real-life" ones, are things that happened with these people while playing FFXI.

The second part of my answer is this. It gives me a better feeling of self-worth to know that I "earned my keep" so to speak. I understand your point that once the servers are shut down there will be nothing tangible for us to point to and say, "I earned this the right way without cutting any corners." I guess the only thing you could say about this is that it's a subjective feeling. Not everyone is going to feel better, or worse, about themselves depending on the method they used to accomplish their goals. There is the old saying that the ends justify the means. As I was trying to think of something that is non-virtual that is analagous to your point the one thing I came up with that seemed relevant was a sporting event ticket.

I feel that it's similarin this manner. The value of the ticket is equitable to the the value of the hard copy of FFXI. That is to say that the ticket can be sold prior to its use for hard currency and it has a quantifiable value just like you could sell a copy of FFXI prior to "using" the registration codes and the discs + codes have a hard currency value. However, once you use (read: attend said event) your ticket or use (read: activate the codes) your FFXI discs, the tangible aspect of your experience loses its value. Now the only thing left is the memory of the experience you will have when all is said and done (you might say that one could buy souveniers, etc at the game and thus you would be left with a tangible/quantifible item after your experience but I would argue that the act of buying those items are independent experiences).

So now what we're left with is the feeling of self-worth associated with how you went about experiencing your entertainment. Did you steal the money to buy the tickets or did you go out and work your ass off to be able to have some extra spending money to be able to purchase those tickets; perhaps giving the whole experience even more satisfactory feelings knowing all the effort you put into legitimately buying your tickets. Or did you steal the money to get the tickets or maybe counterfiet the tickets or maybe even just steal the tickets outright? And to put that in FFXI terms....did you farm every single gil to buy that Noble's Tunic or did you put all the effort into farming sky, to pop minis, to pop Kirin, to get a Shining Cloth, to get your own Noble's synthed. Or did you buy gil to afford or hack/bot at Ulli to get an Autumnstone for Byakko for more Kirins, etc etc. This is where I think the subjective factor comes into play. Some people aren't going to care HOW they got their Noble's Tunic; only that they did have one of their own at some point in time. But still others are going to feel better about themselves knowing all the time and effort they put into legitimately acquiring their items.

I'm sure you're familiar with the proverbial situation that people tend to take better care of stuff they paid for with their own money versus things that people just gave to them. You know, the whole emotional investment aspect of it. We all know there is some truth to that cliche and I think the thing that makes at least part of that true is the same thing that makes it true that people generally take greater pride and feel a greater sense of accomplishment when they are more emotionally invested in something (even if it has no tangible qualities) that they had to work really hard to get.


**Some of what I said may seem a little disjointed...I was interrupted by the phone twice while typing this.**
 
Wasn't Syliph in Rawr for a while? rofl.. Trust me, I'm really not trying to be mean, but you're just being naive if you think no one in Rawr has done anything against the rules ever. You might not see it or even know it's happening (and as Rawr is a sky ls there's probably fewer reasons to aside from things like Ulli), but trust me, people in there have and most likely still do. EDIT: Fixed some punctuation.
 
One thing I know that I left out in my previous post, and the reason why I mentioned my association with CK was this. For as long as I was in CK, the overall focus of the shell was not on gear as it was trying to build a solid team/family who could go out and take on new challenges together.

Now before people start attacking me on this I will openly admit right here that there were times in CK where this family/team atmosphere got lost in the mix or pushed to the side. Everyone wants stuff and greed can sneak into a community really quickly and quietly. However, everytime things like this started to happened, we always tried our best to curb it before it got out of hand and return to our traditional roots of promoting teamwork over items. I'm not saying that CK was, is, or ever will be perfect. What I am saying is that CK was unique (from my personal experiences) in its emphasis on the mindset of the group rather than the gear/fights themselves.

That being said, CK has accomplished some fairly notable things in end-game over the past few months. However, it still tries to make FFXI seem like a fun activity you do with your friends rather than a 40-hour/week job. That is a very delicate balance for end-game shells as everyone who has participated in end-game knows. So when you make that your linkshell priority, you're going to miss out on a lot of potential HNM claims, or wyrms, or whatever simply because you're not trying to force people to be available 20 hours/day, 7 days/week. Therefore, you're not going to be quite as nicely geared as some of the other linkshells. CK has never measured itself on what kind of gear it can get for its members or what kind of gear its members may already have, rather CK has always measured itself on what kind of challenges can the group take on together and have fun doing at the same time. I think when you make that the measuring stick of your linkshell, then you lose a lot of the motivation to hack/bot/etc because it's not about the gear. It's about having fun with your friends and getting into adventures. Are there people in CK who have, do, or will hack/bot/etc? There may very well be and if there were/are those people I don't know who they would be. I sincerely hope there are not and if there were any when I played it would detract a little bit from my overall FFXI experience.

To illustrate my point...the most fun I ever had in CK was our first land king claim, which was Aspid back around June/July. It was right after the servers came online from a maintenance and we were the only shell at medium-full strength in the zone since everyone was at Fafhogg/KB so it was pretty much a free claim for us. I can say for certainty that this particular claim was not botted because I saw Aeron cast Dia on it and I cast Flash on him myself and the only 3rd party programs I ever used were Windower (no plugins), Fraps, and Ventrillo. None of us had ever fought Aspid before so it took us about 20 minutes to get things going smoothly with SCs and MBs and we had some later arrivers that greatly improved our DPS. Well since it took us a while to get things organized we ran out of time before he went hyper and the next thing you know I'm down, Eulore's down, Nyyankee's down and there go the mages and so on and so on. We got him down to 8% and wiped and I believe it was Perserverance that came in and finished the job. Was pretty disappointing to get that claim and come so close and lose, but at the end of the day it was the most fun I ever had with CK because of the experience and the memories. Had we been able to win and had he only dropped an Adamantoise Egg and a couple of Adaman Ores I wouldn't have care, I still would have been just as happy had he dropped M. Legs (or Feet whichever it is) or A. Body or anything else. I just had fun giving it a go with those that I consider to be my friends.
 
Shyrra said:
Well, first off, no need to take shit personally... Compare your LS to the other major NA LS, and your abj. gear is not as numerous and impressive as theirs. If you're going to deny that, you're taking a very bias viewpoint. You don't claim kings nearly as often, which is the main aspect that I was considering. TP Burning Kirin is cool, but it's just increased efficiency, it's nice, but 1hr Kirin vs 5minute Kirin is not the same as No King vs 3hour King.
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It's not really fair to compare gear in linkshells. CK has horribly shitty luck with drops...even in PinCKs. When I stopped playing (mid Sept) we had only received 2 W. Legs from Kirin in about 1 year of consistent sky activity. Also, I was with CK for their very first mini-god fight...I still never received M. Head from Seiryu even though I was the first in line for months on end. My Cursed Schaller sat in my storage for about 10 months...still sitting there right now actually. :( I know you're saying that we don't have as good of gear as others because we don't have as many claims/kills, but even with the claims/kills we do get...SE hates the little blue pearl.
 
Firestreak said:
By the way, just curious but has anyone ever been booted from CK or Kaizen for cheating?
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Yes. I personally broke this person's pearl and informed him as to why via /tell. And since I don't play anymore I don't have a problem telling you who it was. Shadowenigma. We had a very strong reason to suspect he was fleehacking during a Kirin so we had a meeting about it (since the evidence was open to interpretation) and he was removed. That was around June/July of this year.
 
Legomyeggo said:
Melees don't get the joke. :/
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Dalmatica isn't the most useful piece of equipment. White mages wear nobles and black mages wear igqira. Bards or red mages would be able to get a little bit of use out of it, but not a whole lot. 50 MP and auto-refresh is nice, but not when you're losing 15 Enfeebling skill or 10 MND or something.
 
Valandil said:
It's not really fair to compare gear in linkshells. CK has horribly shitty luck with drops...even in PinCKs. When I stopped playing (mid Sept) we had only received 2 W. Legs from Kirin in about 1 year of consistent sky activity. Also, I was with CK for their very first mini-god fight...
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bloodlegs.jpg


3 now 8)

shamelessselfpromotionokgo
 
Calais said:
Dalmatica isn't the most useful piece of equipment. White mages wear nobles and black mages wear igqira. Bards or red mages would be able to get a little bit of use out of it, but not a whole lot. 50 MP and auto-refresh is nice, but not when you're losing 15 Enfeebling skill or 10 MND or something.
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its called MACROS. heard of it? a.body is EXTREMELY useful for rdm/brd.
 
Eulore said:
Didn't have anything else to spend gil on, and white boxes are cool.
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Good point, white boxes rock. Carry on then!
 
Calais said:
Dalmatica isn't the most useful piece of equipment. White mages wear nobles and black mages wear igqira. Bards or red mages would be able to get a little bit of use out of it, but not a whole lot. 50 MP and auto-refresh is nice, but not when you're losing 15 Enfeebling skill or 10 MND or something.
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dang this sound familiar o wait i said this before:spiteful: . I agree dalmatica is nice looking body 1 refresh is good but there are much more useful bodys. Personally id like the crimson tabard over dalmatica for rdm.
 
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