A swell discussion of subjobs. [per OP: Rappa]

C

Courtney

Artifact Armor
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Jun 9, 2004
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Linkshell
Kaizen
Actually, if there is no BRD in the Party and there's a few mages, or it's a BLM Party, /BRD can return more MP than /BLMs conserve MP...
 
Courtney said:
Actually, if there is no BRD in the Party and there's a few mages, or it's a BLM Party, /BRD can return more MP than /BLMs conserve MP...
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whm/brd has no purpose anywhere ever. The party had a rdm in it anyway. If anything, she only subbed it as a whiny complaint about not having refresh last week (though every time I've done limbus on whm/blm I've never once run out of mp, it isn't hard).
 
Rappa said:
whm/brd has no purpose anywhere ever. The party had a rdm in it anyway. If anything, she only subbed it as a whiny complaint about not having refresh last week (though every time I've done limbus on whm/blm I've never once run out of mp, it isn't hard).
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I don't see why there's a RDM instead of a BRD personally, but in that example, if a couple of the mellees had MP, /BRD would return more MP than /BLM.
 
Courtney said:
I don't see why there's a RDM instead of a BRD personally, but in that example, if a couple of the mellees had MP, /BRD would return more MP than /BLM.
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There was a RDM instead of a BRD because a large amount of the linkshell has left because Achates is a crappy leader. We went with what we had, which wasn't always optimal. Only a few people had BRD levelled and usually were needed on their other jobs.

Anyway, I honestly can never at all think of a time where /brd is going to be viable. You are constantly wasting 8 seconds recasting ballad 1 and it doesn't stick long (even for real bards) since there's no instrument for it. While you're casting Ballad and your tank eats a move, you can't cure him. He dies while you're singing in that horrid singing voice that all chars have. WTG.
 
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that /BLM is better than /BRD.
 
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Rappa said:
whm/brd has no purpose anywhere ever. The party had a rdm in it anyway. If anything, she only subbed it as a whiny complaint about not having refresh last week (though every time I've done limbus on whm/blm I've never once run out of mp, it isn't hard).
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Lie!

I had a WHM/BRD come to Phomiuna Aqueducts with me while I was on NIN/THF so we could duo the IT Tauri.

lol
 
Rappa said:
whm/brd has no purpose anywhere ever.
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Disagree. Sanction Refresh + ballad 1 + refresh body = 3mp/tick w/ no RDM is pretty decent. Haste + march for your melee when doing 2 or 3 person pt with no elegy or slow 2 could end up saving you more mp than a conserve mp. You also get a gimp dispel for spikes.
 
Rhaddy said:
Disagree. Sanction Refresh + ballad 1 + refresh body = 3mp/tick w/ no RDM is pretty decent. Haste + march for your melee when doing 2 or 3 person pt with no elegy or slow 2 could end up saving you more mp than a conserve mp. You also get a gimp dispel for spikes.
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Sanction refresh isn't running at all times. You can get refresh from smn sub and get an extra couple hundred mp compared to the zero from brd sub. Having to constantly refresh March, which takes 8 seconds everytime you do it and wears fast from having no instrument, is time you aren't spending resting. Not to mention you have to recast Ballad every time you use March, so that's 16 seconds of standing around for mediocre buffs. If you want dispel sub rdm. If you want refresh sub smn. If you want to fail, sub brd.
 
BLM is the strongest overall sub for BLM. If however, you don't use ES or any actual BLM spells (as a lot of WHM won't be in a lot of fights), then you'd be better off with a different sub most of the time.
 
Rappa said:
Sanction refresh isn't running at all times. You can get refresh from smn sub and get an extra couple hundred mp compared to the zero from brd sub. Having to constantly refresh March, which takes 8 seconds everytime you do it and wears fast from having no instrument, is time you aren't spending resting. Not to mention you have to recast Ballad every time you use March, so that's 16 seconds of standing around for mediocre buffs. If you want dispel sub rdm. If you want refresh sub smn. If you want to fail, sub brd.
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You don't need to rest when your tanks pretty much always have shadows up. Conserve MP isn't going to win over Refresh if you're not spending MP regularly.

Sorry, but making a general statement like whm/brd is never good, just isn't true.
 
Courtney said:
BLM is the strongest overall sub for BLM. If however, you don't use ES or any actual BLM spells (as a lot of WHM won't be in a lot of fights), then you'd be better off with a different sub most of the time.
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Conserve MP. I really don't want to have this argument again, lol. Especially with people who I've generally considered to be pretty smart from their posts on the site. ES+Sleep(ga) can come in handy more often than you'd think, especially when meriting, though even without you're still saving more mp with conserve than you are from any type of 1mp/sec refresh. People are also acting like sanction refresh doesn't work if you're subbing blm, which it obviously does.

All of this is really not the point of this flame anyway. It was the catalyst, but the actions taken by Achates are what I'm flaming.
 
Rappa said:
Okay apparently I need to quantify now that like everything on the face of the earth, there can be exceptions. This case wasn't one of them so it's a moot point. Nothing anyone's arguing would apply as this wasn't a merit pt or anything and the pt had a refresher and no need for sissy march buff.
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You do need to quantify them if you're going to make sweeping generalizations. Yeah, that seems obvious.
 
Rhaddy said:
You do need to quantify them if you're going to make sweeping generalizations. Yeah, that seems obvious.
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If I say "you win", will you shut up and let this get back on-topic? I really don't care about your opinion on whm/brd.
 
Rappa said:
Conserve MP. I really don't want to have this argument again, lol. Especially with people who I've generally considered to be pretty smart from their posts on the site. ES+Sleep(ga) can come in handy more often than you'd think, especially when meriting, though even without you're still saving more mp with conserve than you are from any type of 1mp/sec refresh.
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No you aren't, and that's a common misconception. The break even point for Autorefresh vs Conserve MP is around 2500MP/10 min. (ie spend more than 2500MP/10min, Conserve MP wins, spend less, then Auto refresh wins).

It's impossible under most circumstances, for a WHM to spend 2500 MP in 10 minutes, simply because they can't regenerate that much MP.

ES and sleepga are very useful, but in many endgame situations (including an Ultima fight) there is no opportunity for them to be used.

And like I said, if Conserve MP is the only BLM ability you're using in a fight (and in endgame that is the case a lot of the time) then you're better off with another sub.
 
Okay seriously, either tonight or tomorrow I'll make an End-Game Discussion topic if you really want me to about Conserve MP vs Auto-Refresh. It can be a good topic of discussion and full of numbers and facts and the like. That's fine and I'm sure it'll be great. This flame however has nothing to do with that, so please just drop it. I'm not talking about subjobs anymore. You're all of course technically free to do whatever, but I politely ask that you don't clutter this topic up with subjob debate anymore and take it to the appropriate forum (End-Game Discussion).
 
Also, is there a reason you are keeping it at 2500mp/10 minutes and not 250mp/minute?
 
I hope I do surgery well. If someone's post seems out of place - I do aplogize =)
 
Oh neat, thanks. I'll add some info to this topic when I get some free time to back up my claim that /blm > /smn >>>>>>>>> poop > /brd
 
Makelith said:
Also, is there a reason you are keeping it at 2500mp/10 minutes and not 250mp/minute?
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The question of /sub in general isn't just confined to WHM, and in the case of RDM it's useful to use 10 min increments (it's the same number though).

Also, it's very easy to spend 250MP in a minute, but a lot harder to spend 2500MP in 10 minutes.
 
Wow court, I thought you already lost this argument in LS a while back >.> I still say you should level the job and see how it plays out before making any assumptions based on 'paperwork'. Because, we all know how a lot of things in this game look nice on paper (parsing just about anything for example) but don't turn out accurately in practice (if someone is parsing lower they may be tanking more).

For white mage, pure utility wise, /blm >>> /smn > /rdm >>>>>>>> /brd, no question.

Reasonings? First, let's take a look at what all you get in list form.

/blm : Elemental seal/aspir. Sleep/ga. Tractor. Conserve MP. Higher MP pool.

/smn: Auto refresh. Carby pulls. A rodent to chase monsters that run away. AA. Highest MP pool.

/rdm: Fastcast. Dispel. Phalanx and enspells for solo work. Still decent MP pool.

/brd: Ballad 1 for you, march 1 for melees. Dispel if it's even landable.


Now let's look at the in-practice disadvantages to each one.

/blm: ES/Aspir only works if the enemy has MP. WHMs don't sleep things often, and many don't carry enfeebling gear. Tractor doesn't work in some events. Conserve MP doesn't generate as much MP as a consistent refresh effect. Can't complain about max MP though.

/smn: Can't complain on auto refresh. Carby pulls have limited uses, as do carby-follows. Aerial Armor is rarely used anymore. Best max MP is very nice though.

/rdm: Fastcast saves lives and makes hasteplz melees happy, can't deny that. Dispel is handy only when there is no bard or rdm. WHMs don't solo much, limiting usefulness of phalanx and enspells though. Less MP efficiency than other options makes this relatively undesirable though.

/brd: Songs take time to cast. You have to stop resting and stand in AoE range to refresh songs. While you're singing, melees have the potential to take a crit WS and die because you weren't quick enough on the cure. You don't have to deal with this on any other sub. Refresh is off during the time between casting march and getting ballad on yourself again.


With all of that pointed out...

/blm is best for general use / don't know what you'll be doing.

/smn is best if you need AA or carbuncle for something.

/rdm is best if you KNOW MP will not be an issue, you're soloing without /nin levelled, or farming.

/brd is best... umm... I can't think of when I'd ever use it.
 
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