A swell discussion of subjobs. [per OP: Rappa]

[Rhaddy]

/brd is best... umm... I can't think of when I'd ever use it.

Duo/Trioing imps. There's a mob that's never gonna be able to really crit ws someone to death and where you're really not spending enough MP to lose to /blm conserve mp. Or for that matter, farming/killing anything with small numbers that is pretty weak but still takes shadows.

I would actually put whm/rdm = whm/brd after the other two. I dunno, even with very little fast cast, no cure cast merit (5 regen 5 bar) I really don't notice situations where fast cast would help me that much. Maybe if I had rdm75 leveled, it'd be different, but paying attention and a little intuition will go further than a little fast cast IMO. Counting your tank shadows or starting a cure 5 right as a hit might go off and canceling if its unneeded, or even just getting used to the timing of gas so you can get the cure to land right as the ga goes off would help with any of the situations where you'd really be affected by fastcast.

 

[Myrid]

Duo/Trioing imps. There's a mob that's never gonna be able to really crit ws someone to death and where you're really not spending enough MP to lose to /blm conserve mp. Or for that matter, farming/killing anything with small numbers that is pretty weak but still takes shadows.

Imps? I dunno about you, but I don't have enough room to carry ten stacks of echos for every time I get silenced while trying to cast march.

 

[Courtney]

Wow court, I thought you already lost this argument in LS a while back >.> I still say you should level the job and see how it plays out before making any assumptions based on 'paperwork'. Because, we all know how a lot of things in this game look nice on paper (parsing just about anything for example) but don't turn out accurately in practice (if someone is parsing lower they may be tanking more).

For white mage, pure utility wise, /blm >>> /smn > /rdm >>>>>>>> /brd, no question.

Then how about you educate me. Show me how the Conserve MP of /BLM can produce more MP than the autorefresh of /SMN.

I already said that /BLM is the best overall sub for WHM. But in cases where you don't use any BLM spells, it is clearly surpassed by other subs.

Or are you just ignoring half the points I'm making?

 

[Rhaddy]

Imps? I dunno about you, but I don't have enough room to carry ten stacks of echos for every time I get silenced while trying to cast march.

march in between the pulls, or when the pull is incoming. Not like any merit mobs have tp regain. I ended up only using 1 echo in about an hour.

 

[Myrid]

I did educate, read my post. Let's not make this a flamewar.

You were trying to justify subbing bard, I just debunked it. Where did I deny the use of other subs? The fact of the matter is, subbing black mage is the most useful all around. Other subjobs have VERY limited circumstances when they are most useful (how often does one duo/trio imps... I've never done it, and if I did I'd be a rdm/whm or war).

Yeah, if you're not using anything from /blm, sure, sub something else. Just don't complain when you get thrust into a situation all of a sudden where the sub would become useful, as happens all too often...

Being a <Support role job> isn't about specializing. It's about being able to meet whatever problems you might potentially come against and succeed.

 

[Myrid]

march in between the pulls, or when the pull is incoming. Not like any merit mobs have tp regain. I ended up only using 1 echo in about an hour.

You're not resting between pulls?

 

[Bajaratt]

Then how about you educate me. Show me how the Conserve MP of /BLM can produce more MP than the autorefresh of /SMN.

If you're casting a lot of spells in a short amount of time, then conserve MP is much more effective than auto-refresh. If you're kiting something or you're not going to be spamming spells, or you're going to have several opportunities to rest, then that's when auto-refresh really gains it's ground. When you're resting, conserve MP is useless, but auto-refresh is a nice, free 3.33 hmp.

I already said that /BLM is the best overall sub for WHM. But in cases where you don't use any BLM spells, it is clearly surpassed by other subs.

How? 99% of your sub job's usefulness comes from MP and any way to better maintain your MP pool. Yes, it's a huge waste of your sub job to only use a single trait regardless of which sub you're using, but the effectiveness of the spells you can cast really isn't worth the MP cost. It's sort of like MNK subbing ninja only for utsusemi, it sucks that I have to sub something that offers only a single benefit, but it's the best sub for it's purpose.

Even looking to subjob spells, I use escape/warp infinitely more often than I summon carbuncle or garuda, let alone cast any of their blood pacts. I honestly hate being whm/smn, because there's no real advantages over /blm. Conserve MP vs Auto-refresh, they're about the same, unless you're in a situation where you'll be spamming spells or doing a lot of running, then one gains an edge over the other; but for just normal, everyday use, they're about the same. I personally find black mage to be a significantly better subjob, but I also don't care about those whm's who prefer /smn, since it's mostly an opinion.

I've used whm/brd before, primarily in a very small number of exp parties where there was no refresher and we had a PLD or a bunch of magic users(drk's or something). If you're going without any sort of support class, it's better than nothing because you can help everyone else out too. That's still an incredibly rare circumstance that cannot be counted on as a serious reason to use the sub job.

 

[Mishaela]

Then how about you educate me. Show me how the Conserve MP of /BLM can produce more MP than the autorefresh of /SMN.

I already said that /BLM is the best overall sub for WHM. But in cases where you don't use any BLM spells, it is clearly surpassed by other subs.

Or are you just ignoring half the points I'm making?

If Conserve MP procs on Cure III, Curaga, or Regen II or higher, it's instantly saved you more MP than Auto-Refresh would return in that minute. I personally don't think it matters how often one actually uses the BLM spells, Conserve MP is just plain awesome. Yeah /SMN has some uses, but they're less practical in general. =/

Also, I'd much sooner just sub DRK than I would /RDM or /BRD...at least Stun has a relatively wide array of use, especially vs stuff like Proto mobs. But then that only works if you have good timing and know the limits of your group's hate management. /RDM for Fast Cast or /BRD for their songs is just about as borderline useless as one can get. Maybe if non-BRDs could use instruments, then it (huge might) become a bit more useful, but until then there's just no point.

But I digress...while all subs have situational ups and downs, if you're doing something that generally requires a lot of mobs with a lot of constant fighting, I'd definitely say /BLM is the best sub out there.

/SMN for AA sortof lost a lot of it's luster with the boost to PLD buffs, so subbing it to AA them just isn't as good as it used to be so it doesn't have much use outside the fact that it has a larger MP pool, which will get filled with every MP stone if you're using it in Dynamis, but this won't be the case if you're doing Dreamlands or Xarcabard (which only has what, two MP stones?)

I'd say /BLM > /SMN or /DRK > /RDM > /NIN (if you're gonna dump MP bonus from your SJ, can at least dualwield +cure% wands this way, ha?) > /BRD.

 

[Myrrh]

I really don't see why someone would sub Brd for any kind of situation. /Smn and /Blm far surpass anything Brd can do. But no matter what people say we will go in circles till someone gets bored and stops posting.

 

[Dejavu]

whm/brd has no purpose anywhere ever. The party had a rdm in it anyway. If anything, she only subbed it as a whiny complaint about not having refresh last week (though every time I've done limbus on whm/blm I've never once run out of mp, it isn't hard).

Ok i have no idea what the situation is at hand where you guys are arguing specifically but /brd can be a viable sub in very exact circumstances.

If the party is blmx4 whm rdm which is a party which some situations may warrant and it kinda sounds like court is talking about brd would probably be the best sub... not for the whm itself but for the party as a whole. the ability to give the whole party 1mp a tic rather than the 1 autorefresh from smn or the conserve mp from blm (not debating this as the best sub 90% of the time). This is useful when there is not a bard in a party that is mainly mage.

Another time that i have seen it used sucessfully is on the tank party whm in a fight that is blink tanked by nin/drks or maybe even plds. The 1mp a tic from brd sub is the same as the bard can do on its own so subbing bard for the whm leaves the brd in the party open to doing ballad 2 and victory march. Honestly bard sub useful in alotta situations because it frees up the bard to put up more effective songs and help the party more over all. (example worthless if talking about a ghorn bard tho).

As far as a merit situation is concerned... i dont see it as being useful. But i also typically dont merit without a bard.

 

[Solan]

/BRD should never really be an option as many people have said. You can't use any instruments aside from singing which doesn't add up to shit. HMP is xMP/10 seconds. I'm pretty positive 25MP in 20 seconds of healing than 10MP in 20 seconds of auto-refresh. Although the bad thing about Healing MP VS Ballad is that while healing if you do get hit/have to stand up/accidentally hit walk then you do lose what ever MP you would of gained withing that 10 seconds. But cookies should solve this with the extra +HMP.

-Solan

 

[Dejavu]

read through the other post and in the case of the melee x4 rdm whm party /brd was a moronic sub but above are some viable situations imo

 

[Courtney]

I did educate, read my post. Let's not make this a flamewar.

You were trying to justify subbing bard, I just debunked it. Where did I deny the use of other subs? The fact of the matter is, subbing black mage is the most useful all around. Other subjobs have VERY limited circumstances when they are most useful (how often does one duo/trio imps... I've never done it, and if I did I'd be a rdm/whm or war).

Yeah, if you're not using anything from /blm, sure, sub something else. Just don't complain when you get thrust into a situation all of a sudden where the sub would become useful, as happens all too often...

Being a <Support role job> isn't about specializing. It's about being able to meet whatever problems you might potentially come against and succeed.

You didn't even read the thread, did you?

At least do me the courtesy of reading my posts once before disagreeing with them.

 

[Rhaddy]

You're not resting between pulls?

I'm pretty much resting during the fight because I don't have to really do much besides recast haste and flash if shadows are down. Toss a max merit regen 3 and go back to resting. Recast march when the next pull comes in.

 

[Rhaddy]

I don't think Courtney's point has ever changed in this argument and the one in LS. Auto refresh is gonna beat conserve mp unless you're using more than (what is it?) 2000 mp in 10 minutes if its pure whm spells only. A lot of us just happen to be playing WHM in those situations.

 

[Marajade]

Duo/Trioing imps. There's a mob that's never gonna be able to really crit ws someone to death and where you're really not spending enough MP to lose to /blm conserve mp. Or for that matter, farming/killing anything with small numbers that is pretty weak but still takes shadows.

Just so it stops coming up:
This is about the single time I'd ever think about using /brd. But it's pointless. You're already at 3 people, so the exp/mob is already at its highest divide, so just add in an actual bard and you're instantly doing better than you were with 3.

So, /BRD has no use outside of one situation, and even that situation is pointless because it isn't a generally good idea in the first place.

 

[Halifirien]

I honestly hate being whm/smn, because there's no real advantages over /blm. ... I personally find black mage to be a significantly better subjob, but I also don't care about those whm's who prefer /smn, since it's mostly an opinion.

Same here. I only use /SMN for carby-pulling in Limbus and babysitting General Zazarg in Besieged while he runs all over the city. I definitely prefer /BLM for Conserve MP and the utility of BLM spells.

/BRD makes me giggle, though. Even if I had BRD to 37, there's no situation I'd be in where it would be of any use.

 

[Uzor]

All subs have their uses.

Personally, I prefer /SMN in most situations. In events such as Salvage, /SMN really helps, especially at the start, when you don't have access to a lot of gear, especially if you have capped MP. Keeping Haste up on first floor is almost impossible without Auto Refresh, unless your BRD and RDM have access to magic, which isn't always the case until later on the same floor, or beginning of next floor. Besides, getting 12MP/tick in Salvage is sexy, although admittedly, Conserve MP while getting 11 MP/tick would be superior, but personally, /SMN > /BLM in this case, since it speeds up first few floors more then /BLM would.

In Dynamis, it really depends on how experienced your LS is, and what yoru "position" is. If people die a lot and you need to raise then, /BLM would be superior for Conserve MP. If you're in, say, a melee party that don't pull hate a lot, /SMN is superior. Hell, this is one of the situations where /BRD would be superior, in order to March them all. I've also experimented with /BRD in the Tank party for Ballad, in order to let the BRD throw Enmity songs on the tanks, Although fights are usually so short that it doesn't matter.

Ballista is one of the situations where /BRD is good, since Horde Lullaby have close to 100% accuracy in Ballista. However, when it comes to 1 vs 1'ing on WHM, I prefer /RDM or /NIN

On RDM, /BRD have its times. If you're not main healing in a party of, say, RDM WHM <insert 4 melees>, /BRD is decent in order to march the melees and ballad + refresh the WHM, and with Crimson Legs and Blink, pulling can still be done.

as for COR, most of the time RNG is a good sub for DD'ing. However, on some monsters, such as imps, I've come to like /BRD as a sub. A badly timed Amnesia can turn COR's in to gimp RNG's, and /BRD in this situation lets you keep March and Ballad up. Besides, /BRD also gives you something besides shooting to do in-between rolls. And I'm sure your healer will like Healer's Roll and 4 MP/tick Refresh, and an extra Haste for your melees isn't something to complain about.

All subs have their uses in different situations. You just have to know when one is more beneficial. And /SMN over /BLM (or the other way around) will rarely make or break your event. Personally, though, I prefer /SMN over /BLM.

 

[Stouter]

Also, I'd much sooner just sub DRK than I would /RDM or /BRD...at least Stun has a relatively wide array of use

You just want to souleater hexa.

Disagree. Sanction Refresh + ballad 1 + refresh body = 3mp/tick w/ no RDM is pretty decent. Haste + march for your melee when doing 2 or 3 person pt with no elegy or slow 2 could end up saving you more mp than a conserve mp. You also get a gimp dispel for spikes.

In the time you run in, cast that uber 3% haste march for the melee, then run back out and cast ballad on yourself, you could have had 2 more ticks of resting, for over 100 MP. Meanwhile that ballad just got you and your other mage 40 MP each. You also gave up 40+ MP in that time from /smn's auto-refresh (You won't have ballad on 100% of the time if you're casting march). The time and MP you spend/sacrifice to get that gimpy march would be better served casting Dia II or Slow on every mob, and if they are low enough that Dia II isn't going to help then that 3% haste isn't going to do a whole lot either.

Conserve MP saves you just over 7% of your total MP, it's closer to 2700 MP every 10 minutes that you need to use to break even with /smn. The extra max MP of smn also helps with when you are able to rest to full. Yes max MP is no longer useful after you've spent it, but when you have enough time to rest to full it becomes useful again.



All that said, I went blm/brd through a chunk of exp through the 50's and 60's, and found it very useful with my static party's setup. We had 4-6 people with MP throughout that range, including a pld. More MP for the pld means I can go a little bit harder as a DD, and I rarely had MP issues and could always pull hate by the end of the fight.

It's not a terrible sub, but it definitely isn't the best sub for most situations, especially for a healer job that needs to watch the HP of the tank and could put the party at risk by spending 8 seconds twice every two minutes unable to respond promptly to a sudden move.

 

[Uzor]

Agreed, it is not the best sub, and I personally would probably never go WHM/BRD to Limbus, sea or merits. But it does have its, albeit rare, uses.