A swell discussion of subjobs. [per OP: Rappa]

Oh noo, i use /brd as RDM when i was lvling my RDM /shocked!
Actually yea, i did use /brd in couple occasion in EXP PT, back when i'm lvling my RDM in toau. The reason is, setup = PLD RDM DRK BLU SMN (one more job with MP).

While /brd usefulness is limited, it might work in some instances, though i can't think of any good ones in end game scenario , given that the effect of Songs are gimp (apart from ballad).
 
You didn't even read the thread, did you?

At least do me the courtesy of reading my posts once before disagreeing with them.

I read what was in this thread, actually about three times. I don't know if there was something missed in the transition from another thread, I guess it was.

Doesn't matter really, though. Not gonna get me to level summoner or bard!
 
For what it's worth, I have to fully agree with Courtney. When the issue is MP /smn > /blm all day long. Unless you are burning 250 mp/per min which if thats the case in about 4 mins your going to have one dead party anyway. In a heavily mage situation I can see /brd being >/blm in order to benefit the party. If you have the 8 secs to use ballad then autofresh is autofresh. /blm offers nothing but utility. Same arguement for the benefits of RDM/WHM versus RDM/BLM imo. The issue here is "Is Autorefresh better then Conserve MP" not /smn > /blm or /blm > /brd.

Warp, Escape, Tractor if you need these spells your not fighting something your trying to get away from it. And being able to Aspir or Sleep something once every 10 mins with ES is just not a vaild justification. Conserve MP is not as good as Autorefresh. Why people still think it is, is a mystery to me. Courtney and myself on several different posts have laid out the numbers and it's not hard to see math works far greater in favor of Autorefresh in almost all situations.

I don't know how good this would be, but in hardcore fighting situations has anyone thought about WHM/PLD. Benefits to me seem to be Autorefresh, small MP gain, as well as if you know your going to be spamming cure and possibly taking hate you will have some added DEF, and access to Sentinel which for 1/2 a provokes worth of hate will give you 30 secs for your melee or tank to pull the hate off you. Hell even Holy Circle might be useful if your ninja tank is fighting undead mobs. Not for everyday situations obviously but maybe in a BCNM or Zerg type situation.
 
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Agreed, I've argued for /SMN on several occasions. I've always found it better then /BLM in a pure MP situation. As I said earlier though, if MP is not an issue, then /BLM is better.
 
So is this about conserve MP vs. autorefresh or conserve MP vs ballad? Very different things. I can't see ballad being more useful than auto-refresh or conserve mp. It takes a decent ammount of time to sing, lasts a pitiful ammount of time, and just seems ridiculous.
 
I don't think anyone have said Ballad is more useful then Refresh and Conserve MP. If you sub BRD, it won't be for Ballading yourself.
 
Agreed, I've argued for /SMN on several occasions. I've always found it better then /BLM in a pure MP situation. As I said earlier though, if MP is not an issue, then /BLM is better.

/BLM is only better than a lot of subs if you get to use the /BLM spells. In most endgame fights, there are no opportunities for a WHM to cast BLM spells. In those cases all /BLM gives you is MP (and other subs give more). If MP is not an issue, then in a lot of cases there is absolutely no point in subbing BLM.

/BRD is clearly the worst of the MP giving subs, but it will still give you more MP than /BLM (and it can give your other party members an extra song, that may be of some use).
 
In a nutshell, /BLM gives you more tools for handling situations yourself in a small group. Lots of handy utility stuff, which doesn't shine much in an orchestrated large-group event where things go off without a hitch, but is much handier for more chaotic experiences or learning experiences or small-group experiences. (Psst, when making arguments about ES Sleep, don't forget that WHMs can in fact land Sleep without the use of ES. Obviously not nearly as reliably as RDMs, but it's not like they get resisted 90% of the time either if they remember to put on their enfeebling gear.)

/SMN is better - unless, as already demonstrated, you're plowing through *huge* amounts of MP so that Conserve MP wins - for pure WHM'ing and depending on other people in a big group to handle other roles (i.e. if you have an alliance or more, why should the WHMs need to tractor people - just have the BLMs do it; why should the WHMs need to sleep things - have the BLMs and RDMs do it; etc.).

And /BRD is just kinda... *very* situational. It's like a worse /SMN but one which lets you give MP to other people besides yourself, *and* it's only worth doing if there aren't any risks involved in having the WHM/BRD tied up singing for ages. :P
 
Not to stir the pot but unless you have really bad luck with Conserve MP procs, it'll save more MP than /SMN gives back regardless of how "MP intensive" your duties are. Hell, if it procs once, just once on a Haste or Refresh cycle, that saves more or less the same MP a minute of Auto-Refresh gives. Virtually the only way for /SMN to give back more MP than /BLM saves is if you're doing nothing at all.
 
Time for math! Conserve MP reduces MP cost to 8/16, 9/16, ..., 14/16, 15/16 of the original cost with equal probability (so on average, if it procs, it reduces MP cost to 11.5/16 = 23/32 of the original). Looking at that another way, on average it saves you 9/32 = 28.125% of the original MP cost.

*If* it procs.

Just with the job trait alone, it procs 25% of the time. (And equipment can be applied to any subjob so that's kind of a non-factor.) Which means that it saves you 9/32 * 1/4 = 9/128 = 7.03125% of your *total* MP spending, on average.

So, in order for it to beat out the 20 MP a minute that you get from Auto-Refresh, naturally 7.03125% of your total MP spending per minute (on average), must be greater than 20. Which in turn means that the break-even point is 284.4444 (repeating) total MP spent per minute, on average.

Or, since we're probably talking bigger intervals than single minutes, think of it in, say, 10 minute chunks. In which case Auto-Refresh gives 200 MP, and the break-even point for Conserve MP is 2844.4444 MP spent.

Going with your example, Haste's base recast is 20 seconds, and a reasonable amount of Haste gear bumps that down to more like 16-17, but for the sake of simplicity let's just say you cast three Haste spells a minute, and thus spend 120 MP a minute on Haste. That's way less than the 284 you need to hit the break-even point. And you're not using Haste every 20 seconds constantly: you do a cycle and then rest. So that's even less on average.

You can of course throw in other spells, say you do Haste/Regen 3, three times a minute. Now you've hit 312 MP spent in a minute, and Conserve MP's won out, so your net MP spending is probably more like 290, while Auto-Refresh would've had you at 292. Now can you keep up that level of MP spending every single minute, without resting? Because if you rest for a minute to get all that MP back, that's a minute with 0 MP spent. So the average of those two minutes is now 156, and we're back to "way below 284 MP/minute" again.

In a nutshell, for Conserve MP alone to beat Auto-Refresh, you not only have to have cause to be spending MP constantly, but you also have to have a very hefty amount of MP regeneration just so that you don't eventually run out of MP from all that casting in its own right.

Yes, of course, there will be times when you get lucky with Conserve MP happening unusually often, or happening on particularly high MP cost spells, or reducing MP cost to 8/16 or 9/16 rather than 14/16 or 15/16. There will, statistically, be times when just due to luck, Conserve MP saves you tons of MP.

And then there will be times when it doesn't. And you may not pay as much attention to those. Which is why it's helpful to do the math out.

EDIT: Note that this is not to say that /SMN is unequivocally better for all situations than /BLM. I already said my piece on the comparison of the subs overall. But the situations where you can actually spend enough MP for Conserve MP to beat Auto-Refresh are *very* slim. That doesn't make /BLM useless, because it has a number of utility spells that /SMN lacks, but if you're *strictly* concerned about MP efficiency and not about utility, /SMN almost always wins. Especially if you have to rest or run around (and thus not cast) a lot.
 
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Not to stir the pot but unless you have really bad luck with Conserve MP procs, it'll save more MP than /SMN gives back regardless of how "MP intensive" your duties are. Hell, if it procs once, just once on a Haste or Refresh cycle, that saves more or less the same MP a minute of Auto-Refresh gives. Virtually the only way for /SMN to give back more MP than /BLM saves is if you're doing nothing at all.

Not entirely correct. Conserve MP procs 25% of the time with no +conserve MP gear or weapons. The amount conserved is also random, ranging from 1/16 to 8/16 of the total amount of MP of the spell used. That's to say, if you use Haste or refresh, it would save anywhere from a minimum of 2(or is it 3 because of rounding?) MP to a maximum of 20 MP. Auto-refresh gives a static 1 MP/tic for 20 MP total per minute so you COULD save the same amount but more than likely you would not. On average, conserve MP will save you about 7-8 MP per 100 MP spent (according to wiki although I think it's closer to 7 MP) This is where the total amount of MP to spend per amount of time with conserve MP is calculated to overtakes the usefullness of auto-refresh of SMN.

In fact contrary to what you said, in order for BLM to overtake SMN is to do a whole lot of everything. Given 7 MP conserved per 100, you'd need to spend 286 MP per minute or 2860 MP per 10 minutes. Being that most players have around 1000 MP at the least on WHM at level 75 and refilling that much MP almost 3 times consumes a vast amount of the 10 minutes, I'd gather it's probably better from an MP standpoint to sub SMN. With my current setup, I have +24hMP which is by no means the best, it takes me exactly 170 seconds or 2 minutes 50 seconds to recover 1008 MP. Now that's also ignoring refresh which assuming you only get one, whether it's a BRD, COR or RDM, it really doesn't matter. Assuming you get the constant refresh, that's another 60MP per min for a max of 600 in 10 mins. That leaves about 2260 MP that needs to be recovered while resting, so you would spend about 6+ minutes of the 10 resting during the fight and only 4 of those 10 will actually be while using the 2860 MP. I honestly don't think there is much merit to /BLM from an MP standpoint and only for ES and some enfeebles, sleep, tractor, escape and warp.
 
Bottom line is you can't spend more MP than you can regenerate, and in a MP heavy fight, WHM can't regenerate enough MP to be able to get Conserve MP to proc enough to beat Autorefresh.


A RDM can actually nearly regenerate enough MP to make /BLM earn more MP than /SMN.

Refresh = 600MP/10min
2xBallad = 600MP/10min
Dalm/Morrigan Body = 200MP/10min
AF2 Hat = 200MP/10min
Convert = 900-1050MP/10min

2400-2550MP/10min (plus any resting)

WHM doesn't get convert though, and while you may be able to spend 2500-2800MP in a single 10minute period, you can't do it over the course of an endgame fight or event. You run out of MP long before /BLM can proc enough to beat /SMN.

BLM spells afre very useful, but this is endgame applications we're talking about, and, for example, in an Ultima fight, (or Omega, or Vrtra, or Cerberus, or a lot of fights), there's simply no use for a WHM to be casting BLM spells.
 
In fact contrary to what you said, in order for BLM to overtake SMN is to do a whole lot of everything. Given 7 MP conserved per 100, you'd need to spend 286 MP per minute or 2860 MP per 10 minutes. Being that most players have around 1000 MP at the least on WHM at level 75 and refilling that much MP almost 3 times consumes a vast amount of the 10 minutes, I'd gather it's probably better from an MP standpoint to sub SMN. With my current setup, I have +24hMP which is by no means the best, it takes me exactly 170 seconds or 2 minutes 50 seconds to recover 1008 MP. Now that's also ignoring refresh which assuming you only get one, whether it's a BRD, COR or RDM, it really doesn't matter. Assuming you get the constant refresh, that's another 60MP per min for a max of 600 in 10 mins. That leaves about 2260 MP that needs to be recovered while resting, so you would spend about 6+ minutes of the 10 resting during the fight and only 4 of those 10 will actually be while using the 2860 MP. I honestly don't think there is much merit to /BLM from an MP standpoint and only for ES and some enfeebles, sleep, tractor, escape and warp.

So, for fights that you can't use those spells, /BLM isn't really a very good choice...
 
im gonna add my 2 cents to this. granted the only source of my info is my static.

my static consists of a rng/whm/rdm/pld

elph is our whm, stine is our pld, hornless our rdm and im the rng. elph usually taps me with regen from the first pull (provided i dont run out of range :lol: ) and for the most part never casts another spell on me again. i hought hornless to keep a perfect refresh cycle going so it never off any of those who need it. and being a rng has honed stined hate keeping skills via timed cures.

now elph always goes /smn for our static. and much to the surprise of our 2 guests members her MP at the end of a fight has the habit of going UP and the chain goes on. she lets stine use her cures to maintain hate off of me so i dont have to pull my punches. she casts -NA spells more then cure tbh. granted we are a group that has been to gether since all these jobs were 25 so we are a finely honed team. i question /blm's usefulness if its used simply for conserve MP in elph's case. now is she had to cure more often them maybe /blm would be better. but from her personal experience /smn trumps it.
 
A RDM can actually nearly regenerate enough MP to make /BLM earn more MP than /SMN.

Refresh = 600MP/10min
2xBallad = 600MP/10min
Dalm/Morrigan Body = 200MP/10min
AF2 Hat = 200MP/10min
Convert = 900-1050MP/10min

2400-2550MP/10min (plus any resting)

None of those things have anything to do with their subjob, unless you mean the ability to cast more often due to MP-restoring things, in which case /BLM would easily be better for RDM so long as they're around anything that's Aspirable.

Not to mention WHM could be Refresh/2xBallad/RefreshBody'd as well. So the whole "impossible to meet the amount of MP spent for /BLM to be worth it" thing is actually just sortof strengthened by that point...


Also...did you just say that Ultima/Omega/HNMs are the NOT MP-intensive times? Vrtra and Cerberus AREN'T MP-intensive? Typically any and all HNM shells I've seen try either have a few backup mages, so those would be especially MP-intensive.


In the end this is all just opinion though...thanks a ton for your input on this. Only thing I really have left to comment on is that you seem to underrate the use of Elemental Seal - as a WHM/BLM on things like Ultima, Kirin, land kings and such, I like to ES Burn (or Choke) to help either BLMs or melee with damage somewhat. RDMs generally sub DRK or WHM to such things and BLMs generally would sooner ES a Tier IV or AMII, thus it's a small bit of help that'd otherwise not be there. Suppose that's silly of me in a way, though.

Not tried /SMN in a long time, maybe I'll hop back on it later and try it out some more. For the way I do things though, I just sortof prefer /BLM. =\
 
In my personal experience, /SMN trumps /BLM as well. So Elph sounds like a good WHM :P
 
None of those things have anything to do with their subjob, unless you mean the ability to cast more often due to MP-restoring things, in which case /BLM would easily be better for RDM so long as they're around anything that's Aspirable.

Not to mention WHM could be Refresh/2xBallad/RefreshBody'd as well. So the whole "impossible to meet the amount of MP spent for /BLM to be worth it" thing is actually just sortof strengthened by that point...

Of course they have nothing to do with sub. The point was that with the same sub RDM can regenerate 1200MP/10min more than WHM, because of an extra refresh piece and convert. And even with this extra 1200MP/10min, RDM only just approaches the point that /BLM becomes viable from a MP perspective.


Also...did you just say that Ultima/Omega/HNMs are the NOT MP-intensive times? Vrtra and Cerberus AREN'T MP-intensive? Typically any and all HNM shells I've seen try either have a few backup mages, so those would be especially MP-intensive.

No, I said that in these fights BLM spells and abilities are basically pointless, meaning that the only usefullness you get out of /BLM is MP. And if all you're getting from a BLM sub is MP, then you should be subbing something that gives you more, as BLM isn't the best MP sub.

In the end this is all just opinion though...thanks a ton for your input on this. Only thing I really have left to comment on is that you seem to underrate the use of Elemental Seal - as a WHM/BLM on things like Ultima, Kirin, land kings and such, I like to ES Burn (or Choke) to help either BLMs or melee with damage somewhat. RDMs generally sub DRK or WHM to such things and BLMs generally would sooner ES a Tier IV or AMII, thus it's a small bit of help that'd otherwise not be there. Suppose that's silly of me in a way, though.

Not tried /SMN in a long time, maybe I'll hop back on it later and try it out some more. For the way I do things though, I just sortof prefer /BLM. =\

A lot of it is opinion. The MP data isn't though, it's fact, and a WHM can't get more MP from a /BLM than they can from a /SMN, /PLD, or /BRD in 99% of cases.
 
In my personal experience, /SMN trumps /BLM as well. So Elph sounds like a good WHM :P
she'd blush if she read that. she's to modest to say it herself. :biggrin:

the way i see all of this is like with the gear we pile up on ourselves. its all situational. who cares which is "better" then the other. you'll do good no matter which you sub if you know what the hell you are doing. i got invited to a party in the thickets on my smn and i actually /brd for it. granted, personally, i felt somewhat useless without my cures the group still had fun overall. if i go tto a TP burn party i always /whm duh. but i dont /whm in manaburns cause im casting a ton more then when im in TP burns. i go /blm. and yes conserve MP saves me alot of MP. cause im casting almost constantly and it has more chances to kick in.
 
Well the whole purpose was that people didn't understand the uses of the subs (and apparently still don't). Selecting the correct sub for a situation means understanding the spells and abilities you gain from a sub, and choosing what best fits the situation you're going in to.

Although I guess for most people sub doesn't matter in the least anyway, so it won't matter what you do. Makes me wonder how this flame started in the first place, though, if noone cares at all what the WHM is subbing, and it makes no difference anyway...
 
courtney said:
Although I guess for most people sub doesn't matter in the least anyway, so it won't matter what you do. Makes me wonder how this flame started in the first place, though, if noone cares at all what the WHM is subbing, and it makes no difference anyway...
Well, the original thread was about an idiot whm who didn't understand what was a good subjob and thought that a sub with very very situational use was the best option when it clearly wasn't. The flame was about being kicked for telling the whm /brd wasn't a good option and the shittyness of the leader. The intelligent people were already subbing /smn or /blm, so it's really just about pointing out that /brd actually has some usefullness, albeit rarely. So as long as you're not in one of those very rare situations, as long as you're subbing /blm or /smn you're fine.

I'm still never going to sub /smn though unless I need a BP for something; auto-refresh seriously isn't that much better(and that's mostly comparitive, since you can spend enough mp to make conserve MP superior) unless you're standing aroudn doing nothing. Conserve MP can also be strengthened by gear(or just really good luck), but auto-refresh is completely static. I'd seriously love more conserve MP gear for white mage though, the only options are magnetic earring, goliard body, and seveneyes; of those only magnettic is really worth wearing, so I'd love something else that I could wear.

The only advantage to /smn is a very small boost to mp and mp gain rate over conserve MP. /blm still maintains much more utility because you'll actually be casting those spells on occasion as opposed to never as /smn. I have done ES + slow on Khimaira before, so while it's not something you're going to use all the time, it is still something worth having.
 
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