A swell discussion of subjobs. [per OP: Rappa]

[Arctyrael]

Dejavu is smart. That is all.

His is the best example of the usefulness of bard. Atleast in an ideal situation.

 

[Sumer]

/blm : Elemental seal/aspir. Sleep/ga. Tractor. Conserve MP. Higher MP pool.

Also /blm has escape.

I have played whm for many years now and I have never had the need to sub bard.

I do notice the conserve mp of /blm and I use magnetic earring to enhance this.

 

[jamal]

Dejavu is smart. That is all.

His is the best example of the usefulness of bard. Atleast in an ideal situation.

The only issue I find with the Blink tanks (NIN/DRK and PLD/NIN) is this party will in almost all circumstances have at LEAST one brd in the tank party. NIN/DRK and PLD/NIN rely not only on the mp, but also on recast timers, so optimally you would want 2 bards, one with MAR/MAR, the other 2x's Ballad, or if only one is available you would use MAR/BLD.

His other example wouldn't be an optimal setup either, as a BLM cannon will rarely have a WHM in it. In heavy HNM BLM cannons which this is sounding like, the Healers will be focused in their own outside party, not mixed within the BLM cannon. So basically the only time its used is in a non-optimal situation, because someone else could fill the role more effectively on their own.

 

[Arctyrael]

But in a pinch, the /BRD definitely opens up the ballad spot for the single BRD to place a more useful spell in.

 

[Arctyrael]

As many of us are all too keenly aware, sometimes time is more important than setup

 

[jamal]

As many of us are all too keenly aware, sometimes time is more important than setup

If you're so pressed for time that a WHM needs to /brd, chances are the rest of the party setup isn't going to be setup correctly either. Which means, you'll be hurting going into the fight. If you use WHM/BRD, you're obviously short on healers since you're worried on the mp standpoint, which means you'll have inevitable tank loss while casting the songs that are 'so coveted'.

You 'could' possibly delay with this setup on some top-tier HNMs until reinforcements appear, but there's only a couple of ls's on the server that have skilled enough people to do this, so again we're narrowing the scope even further for its usage.

 

[Uzor]

If you're so pressed for time that a WHM needs to /brd, chances are the rest of the party setup isn't going to be setup correctly either. Which means, you'll be hurting going into the fight. If you use WHM/BRD, you're obviously short on healers since you're worried on the mp standpoint, which means you'll have inevitable tank loss while casting the songs that are 'so coveted'.

You 'could' possibly delay with this setup on some top-tier HNMs until reinforcements appear, but there's only a couple of ls's on the server that have skilled enough people to do this, so again we're narrowing the scope even further for its usage.

WHM/BRD is never, ever, to be used in a MP standpoint, or if you're short on healers. WHM/BRD shouldn't be used if you're short on healers, period. WHM/BRD is to only be used if your group is not in need of direct healing, or if you have several healers and MP is not an issue.

 

[jamal]

WHM/BRD is never, ever, to be used in a MP standpoint, or if you're short on healers. WHM/BRD shouldn't be used if you're short on healers, period. WHM/BRD is to only be used if your group is not in need of direct healing, or if you have several healers and MP is not an issue.

Then I'm correct in assuming it shouldn't be used when short on people in a pinch on HNM? My justification was just off.

 

[Mistra]

It's truly simple, and not something that really merits a huge observation or long drawn out posts.

You simply can't utilize /BRD in any situation that requires participating in organized events. It not only wastes time you could have been resting in order to cast the single most beneficial song you have, but also wastes time if you choose to cast other low, ineffective, and inferior songs on other members for their various prospected uses. As covered extensively before, /SMN, and /BLM offer more than /BRD can, or ever will. The numbers have been placed on the screen, what's more to argue?

 

[Hach]

All subs have their uses.

Personally, I prefer /SMN in most situations. In events such as Salvage, /SMN really helps, especially at the start, when you don't have access to a lot of gear, especially if you have capped MP. Keeping Haste up on first floor is almost impossible without Auto Refresh, unless your BRD and RDM have access to magic, which isn't always the case until later on the same floor, or beginning of next floor. Besides, getting 12MP/tick in Salvage is sexy, although admittedly, Conserve MP while getting 11 MP/tick would be superior, but personally, /SMN > /BLM in this case, since it speeds up first few floors more then /BLM would.

Hmm if i remember correctly you will not get auto-refresh for /smn in salvage UNTIL you get your SJ unlock. Correct me if i am wrong. The rest seem alright

 

[Uzor]

Then I'm correct in assuming it shouldn't be used when short on people in a pinch on HNM? My justification was just off.

It entirely depends on the situation. It might work in a situation such as NIN/DRK NIN/DRK WHM/BRD WHM/BLM(/SMN) BRD/WHM RDM/WHM, in order to let the BRD throw enmity songs on the tanks. But in all honesty, in such a situation the RDM would be better off subbing BRD, so the WHM could sub BLM or SMN.

Either way, the WHM's handling the tank are much better of subbing SMN or BLM. Outside WHM's curing the BLM's or melees could possibly sub BRD, but then again, that puts us right in the "already have healers and MP is not an issue" group.

 

[Uzor]

Hmm if i remember correctly you will not get auto-refresh for /smn in salvage UNTIL you get your SJ unlock. Correct me if i am wrong. The rest seem alright

Yes, that is correct. In most areas, however, except for Arrapago, you can get SJ early on. You also get a SJ from the starting chest, but that one is usually given to main tank.

 

[Arctyrael]

I'm just saying, if the difference between holding a claim 5-10 minutes and wasting 20+ people's time for 2 hours while ls X takes down Tiamat. More than likely you'll never see a WHM/BRD even in that situation, but if the WHM is sitting in mog house and you've got only just 1 brd otw it would be possible.

As a WHM, the only thing that would concern me being WHM/BRD is being in range of -aga. Otherwise, I dunno what other shitty WHMs are out there, but I have skill. I could make it work if even as just a delay.

 

[Rhaddy]

In the time you run in, cast that uber 3% haste march for the melee, then run back out and cast ballad on yourself, you could have had 2 more ticks of resting, for over 100 MP. Meanwhile that ballad just got you and your other mage 40 MP each. You also gave up 40+ MP in that time from /smn's auto-refresh (You won't have ballad on 100% of the time if you're casting march). The time and MP you spend/sacrifice to get that gimpy march would be better served casting Dia II or Slow on every mob, and if they are low enough that Dia II isn't going to help then that 3% haste isn't going to do a whole lot either.

Dude. What other mage? Why are there two mages in my 3 person pt

 

[CmdrFly]

Also, I'd much sooner just sub DRK than I would /RDM or /BRD...

Yeah that's right, where the haters at now?

My static whm keeps wanting to come /brd, at our level it has it's merits. Between Hototogisu and dual Melody Earrings I'd be happy with even Ballad. Nobody else is really fit to use /brd, except maybe our blm who would be giving up Stoneskin & Blink for it.

 

[Mishaela]

Yeah that's right, where the haters at now?

My static whm keeps wanting to come /brd, at our level it has it's merits. Between Hototogisu and dual Melody Earrings I'd be happy with even Ballad. Nobody else is really fit to use /brd, except maybe our blm who would be giving up Stoneskin & Blink for it.

/DRK is still ass for something like Dynamis. Ass. =P
Though yeah, forgot about that...if it's a NIN with Melody/Hototogisu/Auditory Torque, it [huge might] be worth it...but as Stouter's already covered in a previous post, that'd generally be a static that has a very specific set up for such a sub to even be remotely useful.

 

[Bajaratt]

If you're a nin with those items, just grab a real bard and get the good songs while you're using the gear. I carried around my melody earrings in case a party I joined had a bard in it.

 

[Lavi]

In regards to melody earring, it's junk in my opinion. With a simple haste, I should be able to evade enough have recast back up by the time utsu is down. With a bard, it's far easier because not only would I probably get an extra haste song, but elegy as well. I wouldn't even needs to evade at all, I can just spam shadows. With a BRD you can get away with full attack (hauby/merman both have -eva) and not worry about the loss. That's a big if on getting a BRD and a constant haste which are both rare and near impossible together, at my level anyways.

Also, I think if you need such a boost in evasion, you're probably fighting mobs far tougher than needed. I found that parties in which I didn't constantly have a problem with maintaining shadows up before recast was back, I made the most exp/hr. It's not an issue of me soaking up MP either; it's more than if the mob is that accurate against me, I am probably not that accurate against it.

 

[Blackchaoshero]

there are exceptions to every rule. we could sit here and try and figure out every obscure retarded circumstance but i think we can all agree that /brd is inferior to the conventional alternatives. just because there is one tiny obscure pointless exact circumstance you could use it in doesn't validate using it. if it was a good idea, i think people woulda caught on by now.

 

[Courtney]

I can't think of too many situations that /BRD would be the best sub, and I'm not sure where that came from.

There are situations where it is better than /BLM though, simply because in endgame, a lot of the advantages of /BLM aren't able to be used.