A WHM Debate

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Kelyon

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I remember a whole flame on this so please keep it toned down. WE DONT WANNA GET BANNED DO WE?!?!

This is more so directe at Lucki and Rappa, being they are the only two high level WHM's that are/were active in Endgame and Merit shit. What is the better sub for WHM, BLM or SMN? Lucki said RDM was not that great because it adds nothing to MP like BLM and SMN do. Also, curious about /SCH and how that does. Any info would be nice. Thanks guys.
 
I would think the Conserve MP on a BLM sub would be better in most cases then sub SMN. I haven't tried SCH sub since it's only 11 lol, but Moink has and wasn't too impressed with it.
 
Isollde said:
I would think the Conserve MP on a BLM sub would be better in most cases then sub SMN. I haven't tried SCH sub since it's only 11 lol, but Moink has and wasn't too impressed with it.
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Conserve MP vs auto-refresh. I think that's up in the air, though I prefer the latter since you don't have to rely on luck with it. Conserve MP can kick in back to back, or not work for quite a few casts.


I have no experience as a high lvl whm, but from what I hear, /sch is currently a big favorite. You get sublimation, which is the closest you get to being able to cast refresh on yourself. You have the abilitiy to half your cast/recast on your next spell (say like, raise 3, teleport, etc), also Light/Dark Arts boost any magic skills you have not at B skill to B skill (with dark arts, +20 in gear, I can get 269 enfeebling magic on BLM, which is A+ cap if I'm not mistaken). Boosting your skills also enables you to use aspir almost as well as a blm or drk. Oh, and /sch gets conserve MP job trait just like /blm. Only thing you would be lacking is warp and escape. Oh, forgot to mention, you can also half your casting cost on the next spell, which is very helpful when dealing with weakness or encumberment (note this is not like conserve MP, it cuts the cost in half BEFORE you cast the spell, so if your MP was capped at 75mp, you would be able to cast raise 1 with this JA up). If you can't tell, /sch is by far my favorite mage sub, lol. I use it every chance I get on any of my jobs.
 
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Conserve MP is overrated. SMN was already better than /blm due to MND, Max MP boost trait and autorefresh, but SCH is supposedly the best now.
 
stine fulltimes /smn, and she rarely has any problems because of it. too many times we'll party without any refresh, so having that extra mp and Auto Refresh tends to help her out.

i can't speak for her though, but on the same token she liberally uses her regen spells, too.
 
It all depends on what kind of player you are.

/Sch for the Mp JA, the lowered Mp cost of spells, and all the other goodies it gives. While it is good it doesn't quite offer the Mp that /blm or /Smn offer. But it does offer some good spells aswell.

/blm is good cause it offers a decent amount of mp, Conserve Mp, and a list of very useful spells. Ie, Warp, escape, and sleep.

/Smn is great cause it offers amazing mp and you get a autorefresh but doesn't offer the spells or the conserve Mp. It might also be useful for the avatars but I honestly don't see that being much help. It's a lvl 37 Avatar. They have useless JAs and almost no hp.

I have no experience with /rdm. It just doesn't seem that useful as a sub for Whm.

I believe there is no "Perfect sub". It all depends on the player and how they work. I favor /Blm. I tend to have a decent proc rate on Conserve Mp and with all the forms of refresh out there /smn isn't really needed.
 
yeah, i think in stine's case she's able to go /smn because when she *does* get the refresh, it's from hornless(rdm) who is more than able to handle sleeps and any enfeebles necessary to our situations.
 
Well my BLM sub isn't fully leveled so I can't completely compare the two at endgame. I've seen WHMs in endgame do both. Having aspir is useful only if you are fighting mobs with mp. I prefer having the extra mp and auto-refresh because it does consistently help me keep my mp up. Having BLM sub does allow you to tractor and aspir if needed though. Mainly if you know how to use your mp responsibly you can do either way. I'm sure someone with BLM, SMN, and SCH leveled up to 37 could help you out with the information more.
 
mdkuser said:
Conserve MP is overrated. SMN was already better than /blm due to MND, Max MP boost trait and autorefresh, but SCH is supposedly the best now.
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The max mp boost on /SMN is nice, but I don't think the 1 tick refresh is better then Conserve MP. In most endgame situations you're going to have some sort of refresher in your party, so 1 per tick doesn't really make that much of a difference, even stacked with a Noble's or Cleric's.
 
I have 2 at 37 and one at 75. lol

I've tried all three in endgame(/Sch only in Assault cause I keep forgetting to test it on anything else)
 
I haven't tested /scholar myself yet but some of my LS mates do seem to favor the sub.

As others say though it doesn't make the other subs useless as all are still situational in my opinion.
I personally favor /blm in most situations because of the above mentioned spells like warp, escape, tractor and the conserve MP trait.
However another reason for me to favor this is Elemental seal in case I need to land an enfeeble or Repose on a HNM with high resistance.

/smn is nice for the MP boost and auto refresh however with the /nin tanking these days the avatar's ward pacts have lost their shine exponentially.
For merit parties I do prefer /smn because of it's durability.
 
Who cast Raise III on this dead horse?

It's definitely situational. I've always preferred /BLM for the utility of Warp, Tractor and Escape and it's served me well. That's what I use 99% of the time when I'm on WHM. Having said that, I tended to bring /SMN to Limbus because I could do Carby-pulls.

The correct answer is: Level both.

I really should level Scholar and try it out.
 
I don't have a SMN SJ, but I do have BLM and SCH.

I find that, if there isn't a RDM, sublimation is really useful to make up from the lack of refresh, but it isn't nearly as useful as it is for SCH (due to the AF head piece for SCH -- charging it takes way too long). But I think that the benefit from Light Arts is the biggest advantage subbing SCH. The 10% reduction in cast time and MP cost for spells is especially useful for spells such as: (MP reduction): Cure V/IV, Curaga III/IV, Protectra/Shellra V and (Cast time reduction): Stoneskin, blink etc. And then there are the stratagems, which I find most useful when there is a party wipe. Penury cuts the MP cost of Raise III 125 and Celerity cuts the cast time and cooldown of the spell in half, which is handy when you need to raise a lot of people quickly.

As for BLM, (just restating what other people have stated): good MP boost, access to some useful black magic, conserve mp etc.etc. Also, I like being able to warp at the end of events instead of waiting on the BLM for D2... but I guess I'm just lazy :O
 
You...mother...fucker...not...including...me....

BLM -> Has saved lives; many times. The fact that I can cast Elemental Seal + Sleepga in dynamis once every 10 minutes has changed runs and bought wins, literally one being a near wipe and a kill by sleeping Quieren + Ninja NM + Banish 3 NM for kill to get time ext XD Highlight of my FFXI career. Conserve MP is great, it's nice to have the extra int as well.

SMN -> Bigger MP pool + auto refresh. However, the big difference with this comes as having it to sub for certain events. Particularly, I've seen it is great to have for Limbus. The Mind boost is nice, even though it's pretty minimal. However, that mind boost could make the difference for you if you don't have mind gear on you for certain things. I've noticed mind has made a difference in two big things: Cure 5 Potency when weather/day effect is up and accuracy of repose. Granted, Divine Magic plays a bigger role than anything in Repose. Get that up too; but mind gear helps. I won't bother talking about weapon skills either.

Sch -> It seems to be almost a new fad, but honestly I don't see how it would be worth it unless you had the open-range for scholar abilities to combine with white mage. IE: You could cast Cure 5 on a separate party and increase your spells levels. Really, sleepga and/or MP pool from smn in my opinion trounces this.
 
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BTW /sch also gives conserve MP and max mp boost, ontop of what has already been mentioned.
Also the ability to cast Aspir at a b skill with dark skill gear ontop every min only aids its position as THE MOST mp benifitial sub.
 
Myrrh said:
It all depends on what kind of player you are.

/Sch for the Mp JA, the lowered Mp cost of spells, and all the other goodies it gives. While it is good it doesn't quite offer the Mp that /blm or /Smn offer. But it does offer some good spells aswell.

/blm is good cause it offers a decent amount of mp, Conserve Mp, and a list of very useful spells. Ie, Warp, escape, and sleep.

/Smn is great cause it offers amazing mp and you get a autorefresh but doesn't offer the spells or the conserve Mp. It might also be useful for the avatars but I honestly don't see that being much help. It's a lvl 37 Avatar. They have useless JAs and almost no hp.

I have no experience with /rdm. It just doesn't seem that useful as a sub for Whm.

I believe there is no "Perfect sub". It all depends on the player and how they work. I favor /Blm. I tend to have a decent proc rate on Conserve Mp and with all the forms of refresh out there /smn isn't really needed.
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The 2 items were bolded on /blm because /sch gets them as well (Conserve MP and sleep with a B skill in enfeebling magic). Everyone keeps mentioning mp pool, yet very rarely do mage subs make that much of a difference. I tested 75blm/whm vs 75blm/smn once I got my smn to 37+, and if I remember, it was MAYBE 60mp difference. That in no way constitutes favoring one sub over another. Imho on subs, /sch trumps /smn, and /blm ? /sch (/blm gets warp escape and tractor over /sch, but thats it: /sch destroys /blm in mp efficiency, which I think is much more important then ~60 extra mp).




charlo said:
BTW /sch also gives conserve MP and max mp boost, ontop of what has already been mentioned.
Also the ability to cast Aspir at a b skill with dark skill gear ontop every min only aids its position as THE MOST mp benifitial sub.
Click to expand...

Thank you, I actually forgot about this. Yeah /sch is the most mp efficient sub of all the mage subs, hands down ( sublimation > auto refresh and they still get conserve MP to boot).


Edit: sidenote, if you have a refresher, auto-refresh is actually better then sublimation, since it doesn't stack with refresh. However, I still think conserve MP + 10% reduction in casting cost (light/dark arts) is still better.
 
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Isollde said:
The max mp boost on /SMN is nice, but I don't think the 1 tick refresh is better then Conserve MP. In most endgame situations you're going to have some sort of refresher in your party, so 1 per tick doesn't really make that much of a difference, even stacked with a Noble's or Cleric's.
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/blm give conserve mp +25, which means rougly 6% mp saved. Two things

1) the way conserve mp works means that it will activate 1/4 of the time regardless of the spell you use ; it can be on a cure5 or paralyna ... that's random, and really interesting if you use a lot of high cost spells.

2) autorefresh is 20 mp / minutes, so conserve mp is better if you use more than 333 Mps/minutes. Typically BLM use more than 300MP / minute then rest. For whm that's not the case unless you bomb cure someone.
 
I have Blm sub mainly on me when I take Whm to sky, the conserve mp, Elemental seal option, and even the usefulness of spells like Escape far outweigh a bit extra mp and 1 mp per tic recovery from Smn sub. Heck even an occasional Aspir can help your mp pool.

I havent leveled Sch yet but from what I've seen its very popular with Whm's.
 
While everyone is on the topic of the usefulness of the scholar sub and sublimation.
There is one major downside noone so far has seem to have written down:

Refresh effects from food or the Red Mage spell will not take effect while the Sublimation effect is active, either charging or fully charged. Using Sublimation while a Refresh effect is active will overwrite it.

I don't know, but personally I see not being able to get refresh as quite a disadvantage in specific situations.
 
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