A WHM Debate

And im not gonna comment scholar sub, i havent seen the uses so i cant say.
 
Grandphoenix said:
/sch and you can dispel
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As WHM75/SCH37, you will have access to 2 strategem charges, and you regain 1 charge 2 minutes after you've used it.

You have to have dark arts up (which decreases your WHMness while its up since it increases spell cost, recast time, and casting time for all WHM spells) and addendum black up in order to cast dispel. Using addendum black uses a strategem charge. You can use the second charge to swap back to addendum white, but then you wouldn't be able to dispel for another 2 minutes, and you won't be able to use the other strategms celerity and penury which can be super effective. It isn't a very efficient way to handle dispel as you lose the ability to use those two other strategems and you can't dispel as often and a RDM, BRD, or SCH main can. For this reason, I don't really see Dispel as a huge selling point for /SCH.
 
Linhjah said:
As WHM75/SCH37, you will have access to 2 strategem charges, and you regain 1 charge 2 minutes after you've used it.

You have to have dark arts up (which decreases your WHMness while its up since it increases spell cost, recast time, and casting time for all WHM spells) and addendum black up in order to cast dispel. Using addendum black uses a strategem charge. You can use the second charge to swap back to addendum white, but then you wouldn't be able to dispel for another 2 minutes, and you won't be able to use the other strategms celerity and penury which can be super effective. It isn't a very efficient way to handle dispel as you lose the ability to use those two other strategems and you can't dispel as often and a RDM, BRD, or SCH main can. For this reason, I don't really see Dispel as a huge selling point for /SCH.
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Why would a WHM/SCH need to open Addendum: White? ;)
 
Lucki said:
Why would a WHM/SCH need to open Addendum: White? ;)
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So you can cast Raise II and erase, duh...

Yeah, good call. Either way, though, it is still using a charge that would be better used with either celerity or penury IMO.
 
Linhjah said:
So you can cast Raise II and erase, duh...

Yeah, good call. Either way, though, it is still using a charge that would be better used with either celerity or penury IMO.
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IMO, those Stratagems shouldn't be used unless there is an "OMGWTFOSHIT" situation with the tank/other important PT member (Celerity) or you're low on MP (Penury). So if you're constantly using them, then either you or the party are doing something wrong.
 
Lucki said:
IMO, those Stratagems shouldn't be used unless there is an "OMGWTFOSHIT" situation with the tank/other important PT member (Celerity) or you're low on MP (Penury). So if you're constantly using them, then either you or the party are doing something wrong.
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Why would you not use them? They are there to increase your overall effectiveness. In the case of wipe or something, they are fantastic for helping get people up as quickly as possible with minimal MP and XP loss. There aren't very many situations I head into planning on a wipe, though. Using penury when casting cure V or RR3 helps you keep your MP up. Using celerity for stoneskin or RR helps reduce the time you spend doing stuff other than keeping your party members alive and buffed. If you hold out on when to use those things, you don't have a whole lot more going for you than sublimation, which, to me, isn't reason enough by itself to /SCH.

Edit: To me, not using Penury when you can is like saving aspir on BLM until you're down to 20MP. You could have probably used aspir once or twice before you were down to 20 MP, and maybe you wouldn't be down to 20 MP right now.
 
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Thanks for all the information guys. I have decided i need to level ALL 3 to 37, SMN BLM and SCH. All seem rather important for different situations.
 
Linhjah said:
Why would you not use them? They are there to increase your overall effectiveness. In the case of wipe or something, they are fantastic for helping get people up as quickly as possible with minimal MP and XP loss. There aren't very many situations I head into planning on a wipe, though. Using penury when casting cure V or RR3 helps you keep your MP up. Using celerity for stoneskin or RR helps reduce the time you spend doing stuff other than keeping your party members alive and buffed. If you hold out on when to use those things, you don't have a whole lot more going for you than sublimation, which, to me, isn't reason enough by itself to /SCH.
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RR3 lasts 1hr, and should be the first thing you cast before starting a party/event when everyone else is buffing, then resting. So you don't need Penury for that. If you die, and RR, then you'll be weakened and not really helpful do to recast timers being doubled, so you won't be doing a lot of casting until you're all healed up. *

Cure V is for those "OMGWTFOSHIT" situation only. Cure III, the Regen's, and the occasional Cure IV should be implemented before Cure V in non-emergency situations. *

Stoneskin costs 29mp (26 with Light Arts active), and about 7 secs to cast (5 with LA active?). It would be a waste to use either Stratagem charge for Stoneskin.

When you activate Sublimation, it starts ticking off HP and stores it as MP until you use the JA again. It all depends on how the person is using it. You can either use it in short bursts (activate it, wait 30secs, use the JA again for little bits of MP, and wait 30secs until you can start charging again) or long shots (activate it, wait until Sublimation maxes out, use the JA for max MP return). So Sublimation usage depends on the situation at hand really.
 
Also, I just ment for things such as Lamia no 13 where you need a dispel but not much besides that is needed since that was the subject of needing dispel.
 
The correct answer is /blm, always and no exceptions. The only time you deviate from that sub is when you're doing something that requires dispelling and you're the only option (read: small assault group) then you sub rdm or I guess scholar. I dunno anything about sch, it's past my time.
 
Lucki said:
RR3 lasts 1hr, and should be the first thing you cast before starting a party/event when everyone else is buffing, then resting. So you don't need Penury for that. If you die, and RR, then you'll be weakened and not really helpful do to recast timers being doubled, so you won't be doing a lot of casting until you're all healed up. *

Cure V is for those "OMGWTFOSHIT" situation only. Cure III, the Regen's, and the occasional Cure IV should be implemented before Cure V in non-emergency situations. *

Stoneskin costs 29mp (26 with Light Arts active), and about 7 secs to cast (5 with LA active?). It would be a waste to use either Stratagem charge for Stoneskin.
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What are the * for?

I agree you don't need Penury or Celerity. But having them and using them helps your overall effectiveness. Not using them except in emergency situations decreases that overall effectiveness IMO.

What you need in order to be effective changes based on the situation, so the lesson here is to know what you're fighting, who you're fighting it with, and what you'll need. From there, make your decision about what to sub. And I'm glad to hear you're planning on levelling more than just one, Kelyon. =D
 
if you don't /sch on WHM, you blow. minus situations where you might need escape? a free warp? idk, /sch is the blanket sub.
 
Linhjah said:
I agree you don't need Penury or Celerity. But having them and using them helps your overall effectiveness. Not using them except in emergency situations decreases that overall effectiveness IMO.
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Correct, if you're not using them, then you're not being totally effective. They recharge fairly quickly compared to many other abilities so one should take advantage of them. Your two hour is an omgwtf ability, not Penury or Celerity.

Rappa said:
The correct answer is /blm, always and no exceptions. The only time you deviate from that sub is when you're doing something that requires dispelling and you're the only option (read: small assault group) then you sub rdm or I guess scholar. I dunno anything about sch, it's past my time.
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So... not really always and no exceptions?
 
Linhjah said:
What are the * for?

I agree you don't need Penury or Celerity. But having them and using them helps your overall effectiveness. Not using them except in emergency situations decreases that overall effectiveness IMO.

What you need in order to be effective changes based on the situation, so the lesson here is to know what you're fighting, who you're fighting it with, and what you'll need. From there, make your decision about what to sub. And I'm glad to hear you're planning on levelling more than just one, Kelyon. =D
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I can't remember why I put the * there, tbh. I got distracted, and lost my train of thought...
 
Also penury curaga II (60mp)/III's(90mp) are nice for things where hate is set but aoe is raping.
 
The only thing better then 1 Hexastrike is 2 Hexastrikes
 
now I'm no whm but I've certainly seen a lot of whms in action and I've done a ton of meriting.

to me it seems /sch is the best sub outside of situations where you need escape/ES sleepga or blinkga

according to wiki "With a base activation rate of 25%, Conserve MP allows you to retain approximately 7 MP for every 100 MP spent. The actual amount retained may vary."
so that's basically 7% savings with /blm

Light Arts from /sch gives 10% mp saving for whm spells AND 10% faster casting notice that it saves 3% more mp than /blm. This alone I would think makes it better for merit PTs.

Sublimation can be much better than auto refresh of /smn by giving +2mp -2hp per tick but the mp is stored up so you can use it when you need it, the downside of course is you have to use stoneskin to rest well charging it, luckily with Light arts your stoneskin is casting 10% faster and cheaper. Also it doesn't stack with refresh spell but you shouldn't have a rdm in your merit PT if you have a whm already.

penury and celerity I don't see as huge benefits in merit PTs but could be handy for if things go wrong and you need to get a quick cheap raise out or recasting buffs or reraise mid party since most PTs last a few hours. strategems don't have nearly that long of recast times so you can use them for whatever you want really and save even more mp.

there is also the option of dark arts which allows you to cast aspir with a good skill lvl and access to dispell.
 
/SCH gets Conserve MP too
 
Lavi said:
So... not really always and no exceptions?
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Are we HONESTLY after years and years going to do the word twisting thing yet again, Lavi? I think we've established by now that "always" essentially means "almost always", especially when I immediately follow it up with an explanation of the exceptions. Christ.

And pchan, I don't need to "learn2play" (though you need to lrn2meme). I can out-whm you any day of the week and I don't even play the game anymore. With the options of whm subs (excluding sch which I've already said is beyond my time and I have no experience with), blm will always be just as good as if not better than smn, brd, rdm, etc.
 
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