Another War?

Reauland said:
Seconded.

Sharpe's on the money too, as far as I'm concerned.

As far as the sacrosanct "will of the people" goes, let's step back and look at the repercussions of not only abandoning this war too early, but also telegraphing to our opponents when we plan on leaving. I may not know the reasons this whole bloody mess got started, and I might or might not agree with them all if I did, but one thing's clear to me:

Abandoning Iraq as it currently stands would be unconscionable, tantamount to the same sort of fair weather colonialism that Europe engaged in for centuries, only on a much smaller time scale. Just look how well that worked out in places as far-flung as the Congo, Rwanda, and Viet Nam.
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Too late now.

Damned if you do damned if you don't.

It's not as if there's going to be much of a change based on our actions in the country. We're either going to have to bail for our own reasons or because they're going to get tired of being occupied after a while and the world community will eventually take a stand at some point.

As much as there was no good way to go in there's no good way to get out.

Personally i'dve gone to iran, syria, or north korea first and handling iraq further down the road as they _were_ a threat to no one previous to our latest invasion.

Course there was always the option of finishing the job there the first time in. But the Bush family isn't quite well known for it's successes now is it?
 
I'm still very much of the opinion that the U.S. has always intended on using Iraq as a "beachhead" in the region and that we'll never be entirely "out of there" any more than we're out of Japan or Germany.

I know for sure that if push ever comes to shove, it's a lot easier to walk into Iran from Iraq than it is from Afghanistan.
 
RoM said:
They hate us because we're there to hate.

They hate us because we haven't been able to stop fucking with how they do shit since the crusades.
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First part, I disagree; Second part, I whole heartedly agree. If you leave people well enough alone, there would be no reason for any animosity. And no, we have not left that region well enough alone.

As to the question of oil. Yes, this is what this war is about. If it was about our security, we would invade N. korea first, as they have WMD that can actually hit us. If it was about freedom and liberation, well, there are dozen's of other countries around the world that need more help then the Iraqi's whether its Tibet or Rwanda, etc.

Who is getting all the No bid contracts for rebuilding Iraq? Anyone but me find this shady?

Just because we havent gotten any oil from there doesn't mean that the war wasnt about it. When we first invaded, what was the first place we secured? The oil ministry and the oil feilds. The fact that the insurgency is still going on, and will continue to until we leave, and until after this civil war is settled is why we arent getting oil. As for why prices of oil is at an all time high, well, perhaps that should be addressed to the oil compananies that are making record profits since this war has gone on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W91sqAs-_-g

One thing you guys dont realize, especially kotsu who is attempting to demonize muslims by calling them 'monsters' is this: At the base level, the average person is the same as anyone else from around the globe; they just want to live their lives peacefully. What people get pissed at, which anyone would, is being invaded by someone you have done nothing to. Iraq had nothing to do with 911; Iraq had no WMD (and this adminsitration new it, they just flat out lied); Iraqi's did not need liberation from what i can tell since they have been fighting their 'liberators' from day 1. So, what exactly are we there for? To make certain it turns into a democracy? And if it does and they elect who i suspect they will, what then? What if they decide to sell their oil to the highest bidder; maybe the chinese who will pay for it with money we owe them?

What it comes down to is this. People in that area do not like to be occupied. They are not Germans; they are not Japanese. You want to see a model of occupation in that regioin? Look at the Palestineans who have been occupied for 60 years. See how well thats turning out?
 
Sirelrohir said:
First part, I disagree; Second part, I whole heartedly agree. If you leave people well enough alone, there would be no reason for any animosity. And no, we have not left that region well enough alone.
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Agreed but both points speak to the same thing, really.

As to the question of oil. Yes, this is what this war is about. If it was about our security, we would invade N. korea first, as they have WMD that can actually hit us. If it was about freedom and liberation, well, there are dozen's of other countries around the world that need more help then the Iraqi's whether its Tibet or Rwanda, etc.

Who is getting all the No bid contracts for rebuilding Iraq? Anyone but me find this shady?
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Again i would ask 'where is it?' We don't have it. Given the examples you made of security and liberation and all that junk i again would propose that if we wanted more oil we'dve simply either renegotiated or found some kind of political issue to have with Canada. Yes, Canada. Our largest foriegn oil importer.

It was certainly easy enough to fabricate reasoning to go in to iraq, that can't be too far a stretch.

And yes the contracts for rebuilding are super-dirty pool.

Just because we havent gotten any oil from there doesn't mean that the war wasnt about it. When we first invaded, what was the first place we secured? The oil ministry and the oil feilds.
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It's called strategy. If you allow the enemy to take out the staple of the economy you become responsible for that come war's end. You think we want to continue paying for iraq not to cave in on itself? oh wait....

Well maybe the first one to go in had it right.

The fact that the insurgency is still going on, and will continue to until we leave, and until after this civil war is settled is why we arent getting oil.
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We were never there for oil. If we were, we'd have some by now. It was a complete snowjob. We went there to prove a point to syria, iran, north korea, etc. We went there to flex. Nothing more nothing less. Read anything you want in to it, you don't have to buy my take on it but make no mistake. We're in iraq because we had a point to prove and needed deflection from Osama.

Where'd he go again? Why isn't that in the news?

Yea...

As for why prices of oil is at an all time high, well, perhaps that should be addressed to the oil compananies that are making record profits since this war has gone on.
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While i am skeptical of the oil industry it has to be said that producing oil in that part of the world requires more security than say.... Canada. Security costs money. Insurance costs money. Refineries/pipelines being bombed cost money. Naturally oil from unstable regions is going to cost more. Record profits also speak to record inflation and .. well, to be blunt; China.

But we're not talking about China so i'll let that one go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W91sqAs-_-g

One thing you guys dont realize, especially kotsu who is attempting to demonize muslims by calling them 'monsters' is this: At the base level, the average person is the same as anyone else from around the globe; they just want to live their lives peacefully. What people get pissed at, which anyone would, is being invaded by someone you have done nothing to. Iraq had nothing to do with 911; Iraq had no WMD (and this adminsitration new it, they just flat out lied); Iraqi's did not need liberation from what i can tell since they have been fighting their 'liberators' from day 1. So, what exactly are we there for? To make certain it turns into a democracy? And if it does and they elect who i suspect they will, what then? What if they decide to sell their oil to the highest bidder; maybe the chinese who will pay for it with money we owe them?
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This is much closer to a clear understanding of the big picture than the quotes preceding it. My appologies, i tend to respond as i read on a quote by quote basis giving me clear enough pause to consider the thoughts presented and a decent response.

What it comes down to is this. People in that area do not like to be occupied. They are not Germans; they are not Japanese. You want to see a model of occupation in that regioin? Look at the Palestineans who have been occupied for 60 years. See how well thats turning out?
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QFT ... and because i quoted everything else. Hopefully that doesn't come off too argumentative. I think we see eye to eye on alot but we're both a little too dug in on our perspectives.
 
Sirelrohir said:
I love it when some idiot comes with the freedom isnt free bullshit. Here's a newsflash for you. People in the middle east could give 2 shits about our freedom. If you honestly think thats what this war is about then you've been brainwashed. I absolutly adore the fact that 'hitler had it wrong' but you somehow have it right; ITS THE SAME THING. You know, if you would poll the majority of the world, i would be willing to bet that we're on top as the region that is putting the world at risk.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/03/america/NA_GEN_World_Views_of_Bush.php

So our closest allies rank our president up there with the axis of evil

http://www.time.com/time/europe/gdml/peace2003.html

Non scientific poll, a bit out dated, but interesting none the less.

So, using your logic, we should be nuked since the majority of our allies (and most likely the world) find us as the biggest threat?

Do you want to know why people over there hate us? It's not because we are 'free'. Japan is free; Brazil is free; Mexico and Canada are free; But i dont ever hear about terrorists going after any of these guys. Want to know a fact? The VAST majority of terrorist attacks in the states are by white americans; whether its PETA or some right wing psycho that thinks God told him to blow up an abortion clinic. Of course, since our current administration wants war, its in their interest to keep people afraid of people that are different from them.

Here are why people over there hate us:

1) Isreal/Palestinean conflict- doesnt need to be explained; But a suggestion to fix this (and alot of other things) would be campaign finance reform.

2) The fact that we support corrupt/brutal goverments that suit our purposes. We support the Saudi's (monarchy), Jordinians (monarchy), Egypt (president for life; recently banned opposition parties), Kuwait (monarchy), the gulf states (monarchies). We dont support the Palestineans, who actually elected people democratically. We supported Iraq in the 80's.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

LOLOL

We also support Isreal which is a 'democracy' in which a certain religion gets special treatment over others.

3) The fact that we have army bases there. What would you do if China decided to put a base in Maryland? gogo Red Dawn, right? Wolveriiiiiiiiiines! Patrick Swayze is a terrorist!

4) Oh, and lets not forget.. they hate us because of what we do with their oil, which by the way is what this war is about. This is all about imperialism. The only reason it is becoming about ideology is because certain people, on BOTH sides, want it to be about that.

Contrary to what you might believe, not supporting this war is not un-patriotic. In my opinion, your the bigger pussy for being led around like a sheep and not thinking for yourself. You keep talking about people undermining the government... well since both the house and senate are democrats, well, who's being undermined exactly? Seems to me that alot of people spoke out during the midterm elections; are you saying the majority of Americans are wrong? Or would you rather people just not think and believe everything they are told by our lolpresident?

Here's a question for you kotsu. What are we going to do when Iraqi's democratically elect a Shiite fundementalist to be their prime minister? What happens when this person allies with the Iranians? There are already close ties within both governments. We gonna invade them again? Oh wait, we could just use your plan and nuke em! Yeah, that will teach them to not get invaded by us! Lol, the only stones you have are in your head.

Edit: I overlooked the funniest thing he said. People that protest should be jailed; So basically you dont want people 'free' to express their values if it doesnt match yours? Isn't that how it is in places like Iran, North Korea, and communist China? I mean I could be wrong but im pretty sure thats how they do things in those countries.

As for not being drafted.. Your damn right that i wouldnt want to go fight for some asshole at Shell Oil, Haliburton or Lockheed/Martin so their stocks could go up 20 cents. Here's a great way to support our troops... how about they get significant stock options from whatever companies stand to gain from this war? I mean what better way to support them then to give them financial security when they get back, right? Or should that security only go to Bush's and Dick 'I shot my friend in the face and got him to apologize' Cheney's CEO buddies?


Gogo John Rambo! You do realize that rambo helped the taliban in Rambo 3, right?
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This entire post is win+

Sirelrohir said:
What it comes down to is this. People in that area do not like to be occupied. They are not Germans; they are not Japanese. You want to see a model of occupation in that regioin? Look at the Palestineans who have been occupied for 60 years. See how well thats turning out?
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Ding, ding, ding!
 
Yeah, there is no doubt in my mind that they weren't in Iranian territory, especially with the Iranian President giving the commanders who captured our troops medals, it makes it seem to me that this was all just a "show of strength" by the Iranians. I just wish this had turned out more like the Iranian embassy seige.
 
Sirelrohir said:
As for why prices of oil is at an all time high, well, perhaps that should be addressed to the oil compananies that are making record profits since this war has gone on.
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Do you know what a profit margin is? Quit worrying about the magic number of billions of dollars the company made. What percent of every dollar spent on a product do you think is ok to be considered profit? 10% 20% 30%?
 
what the fucked up thin is that this is making gas prices shoot up again

im done with this country
 
Tok said:
what the fucked up thin is that this is making gas prices shoot up again

im done with this country
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It's called seasonal pricing, get a helmet. Warm = expensive. Cold = cheap.
 
You know Japan is the country that hates America the most? The funny thing is they have ran out of excuses to hide it. lol
 
Stop the production of all anime in protest?
 
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