Don't touch my junk bro.

I'm just more surprised we haven't got a non intrusive way to tell if someone has any prohibited items on them. Did anyone see Terminator? We was meant to have Robots by now for gods sake!
 
I'm just more surprised we haven't got a non intrusive way to tell if someone has any prohibited items on them. Did anyone see Terminator? We was meant to have Robots by now for gods sake!

Oh man, I just watched a movie a couple nights ago that was set in 2004 where we were in full clone mode and traveling to and from Space as individuals!

But yeah, how else is there? I've only ever seen metal detecting wands at one place and I've been to a lot of shows. But they don't keep from other paraphernalia being smuggled in.
 
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Solution: hire attractive security.

Prudes and virgins wouldn't be hiding bombs up their boy-howdy anyway.
 
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The whole thing is being blown out of proportion by the media, since there isn't anything good in the news outside of the whole Korean thing. Think of how much coverage the Prince William marriage is getting. These pat downs are nothing new, at least where I live. I went on a plane a few years back (long enough that I don't remember how many) and they did the same thing, minus a strip search (mentioned in OP example).

As far as the kid goes, what's happening there is the TSA is doing everything they can to make it look like they aren't using any kind of profiling, and really crossing lines IMO. My dad told me there was a report about a 90 y/o nun getting the pat down (etc.) but when an official was asked if a person wearing a burka would receive the same treatment, said official wouldn't say "yes".

So yeah, they pat down small children and nuns so they don't hurt anyone's feelings.

Pat downs aren't new you're right. HOWEVER, these pat downs are. On guys they have to go until they feel resistance of the guy's genitalia. Girls must have their chests cupped and fondled.

As well, since they DON'T do the same searches on EVERYONE like TSA heads have claimed they are only creating safety blankets. How many terrorists attacks have been from departure in the US since 9/11? None. How many have been coming into the country since 9/11? All of them. So we aren't really safer from the TSA security measures. It's a safety blanket for the retarded mass of our society.

What it comes down to is this: http://rt.com/usa/news/naked-body-scanners-usa/ the former head of homeland security is the guy behind the full body scanners. He basically gave himself this contract to make money while he could.
 
Pat downs aren't new you're right. HOWEVER, these pat downs are. On guys they have to go until they feel resistance of the guy's genitalia. Girls must have their chests cupped and fondled.

As well, since they DON'T do the same searches on EVERYONE like TSA heads have claimed they are only creating safety blankets. How many terrorists attacks have been from departure in the US since 9/11? None. How many have been coming into the country since 9/11? All of them. So we aren't really safer from the TSA security measures. It's a safety blanket for the retarded mass of our society.

What it comes down to is this: http://rt.com/usa/news/naked-body-scanners-usa/ the former head of homeland security is the guy behind the full body scanners. He basically gave himself this contract to make money while he could.

Former Homeland Security secretary Michael Chertoff has been criticized for heavily promoting full-body scanners while not always fully disclosing that he is a lobbyist for one of the companies that makes the machines. Not only does Mr. Chertoff have his hands in the piggy bank but several lobbyists within the government are also getting a nice slice of the pie. To name a few we have former TSA deputy administration Tom Blank, former assistant administrator for policy at the TSA, Chad Wolf. Kevin Patrick Kelly, "a former top staffer to Sen. Barbara Mikulski, D-Md., who sits on the Homeland Security Appropriations subcommittee" and Former Senator Al D'Amato. It's a way to make a quick buck in the name of fear.

He isn't the only one :\ Body scanners are nothing more than a money making scheme.
 
but what can they do strid? what miraculous invention/method do you expect them to come up with? its not that theses machines have trouble with detecting certain things. they cannot detect them due to the very nature of their composition. the body scanners and the baggage scanners are based on the same technology. as such both are equally limited to what will and will not show up on them. the trick is you cannot sidestep physics. EX: it is impossible to make an x-ray machine that will see through lead because x-rays cannot pass through the metal. not due to a flaw in the machine, but because of the very nature of the element. the engineers that built these machines know that better then any of us here on this board, but their hands are tied by what is available.

DW he's not the first scumbag to exploit the American people to line his own pockets, sadly it has become pretty much the standard in the US. As for the patdowns, yes they are giving themselves safely nets. isn't that similar to what doctors do when recommending same sex physicians for children, for example? that's a standard, and smart, business practice. women check the women and men check the men. we all know that sexual harassment in the work place is a hair trigger issue, the TSA wisely took proper steps to avoid such an issue. not to say it wont happen, since nothing is 100% full proof, but it's the best way to prevent it.
 
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It's important to note that there are a couple different kinds of body scanners. Most fall into the category of a millimeter wave scanner, which is basically a radar map of the body, or a backscatter x-ray scanner, which is a rather odd kind of low-intensity x-ray where the scanner picks up the reflected radiation. They each have their own strengths and weaknesses, depending on how they're calibrated.

It's also important to note that, just because someone stands to make money on something, doesn't mean that their motivation is entirely profit-based. It's easy to say "Well, this guy used to be in the government, and now he's lobbying for these machines, and his firm stands to make money from this lobbying, so the machines are obviously just a scam to bilk the taxpayer out of a few million dollars", but that's not necessarily true. It's just as easy to say that "this guy used to be in the government, saw marked deficiencies in our security measures, and after he got out decided to try and lobby to fix them".

Anyhoo.

It's a messy situation. Like I said, the technology is far from perfect. But it does work on at least some level, and does provide at least some increased security. Is it worth the price tag associated with it? It's hard to say. If a single passenger plane is saved as a result, then yes, it probably would be worth the cost. Passengers aside, the average jet is in the $150-200 million dollar range. The social issue is another question entirely, and it's one that is considerably harder to answer, since it's a question of personal preference, not statistical analysis.

For example, would I mind being scanned? Not particularly. Would I mind being patted down? Yeah, most likely. I don't particularly care who sees a blurry image of my genitalia, but I'm not fond of being touched, in any capacity, by strangers. Or by most of my friends, for that matter. But Raes' recent trust issues aside, I imagine you see my point. What bothers me, may not be what bothers someone else, and vice versa.

Taking an absolute position on a matter like this is just silly.

You can look at it this way: If the current security measures had been in place on 9/11/2001, what would have happened then?

The answer, by the way, is "I don't know."

It's impossible to know. Obviously the tactics used by the 9/11 terrorists could have been thwarted, but what other tactics could they have come up with? That's the question here.

Security measures like this are almost always "fighting the last war". They're typically measures implemented to close some loophole in the existing procedures that someone figured out and attempted to exploit. In the case of the body scanners, it's the Underwear Bomber. In the case of shoe scans, it was the Shoe Bomber. And so on. And every time it happens, things get a little less convenient for the populace at large, but arguably we get a little safer, because that particular weakness will be much harder to exploit next time around.
 
but what can they do strid? what miraculous invention/method do you expect them to come up with? its not that theses machines have trouble with detecting certain things. they cannot detect them due to the very nature of their composition. the body scanners and the baggage scanners are based on the same technology. as such both are equally limited to what will and will not show up on them. the trick is you cannot sidestep physics. EX: it is impossible to make an x-ray machine that will see through lead because x-rays cannot pass through the metal. not due to a flaw in the machine, but because of the very nature of the element. the engineers that built these machines know that better then any of us here on this board, but their hands are tied by what is available.

There is no *invention* or method needed. The previous searches and machines were almost enough, but what the TSA needs are more highly trained specialist for the travel seasons instead of more McDonalds employees. I left out the word "miraculous" with "inventions" because that's the only thing that could make this new machine even fractionally worthwhile, to do something miraculous, defy the laws of other machines of its type, which it doesn't. As it stands in the airport it's an overpriced, additional scanner and possible rights violator, nothing more. Outside an airport, it's a nice piece of technology.

I was probably hasty to blame the TSA for all of this earlier though. The real people to blame are the idiots lobbying for this to even happen, thinking this is all necessary, which none of the new things are. Other than training, pilots always locking the cockpit door, and passengers having the guts to fight back a potential threat, there is nothing that should be done, things were fine. Just because an idiot decides to jump off an interstate high rise during rush hour causing a massive pile up doesn't mean that we should outlaw the future building of the high rises and dome off the ones already up.
 
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I've nothing to be embarrassed about, so I don't mind.

I do agree with Strid though, its kind of ridiculous. Any way they can think of countering it, terrorists will think up a new way. Its like with any kind of criminality. Companies don't like pirating, so they try to prevent it. But people always think of new ways to countering the countermeasures, rinse and repeat an everlasting circle. The only way of fully stopping terrorism on airplanes altogether is to ban planes, something that won't happen.
 
Any way they can think of countering it, terrorists will think up a new way. Its like with any kind of criminality. Companies don't like pirating, so they try to prevent it. But people always think of new ways to countering the countermeasures, rinse and repeat an everlasting circle. The only way of fully stopping terrorism on airplanes altogether is to ban planes, something that won't happen.

Exactly, they're not going to stop the commuting so they have to keep coming up with new ways to offset the new loopholes each time they're discovered. Or they may as well remove all measures in place as they get outdated like with anything.

Would you run and anti-virus program that is outdated 5 years and proven to have been by-passed by even the most archaic of viruses? No, because you're trying to protect something that holds value. And with flying the value lays not only in the equipment but most importantly in the human lives that depend on professionals to provide a sort of security for themselves and their families/friends.

E - (not directed at you specifically Uzor) profiling is not enough. And there are worries of it been race driven which causes more issues which also do not filter out all the possible threats. There are more than enough shady Caucasians that would just as easily harm someone without a second thought.

Picture getting on a plane and seeing a group of (insert whom you see as a possible threat/likely suspect) having not gone through any pat down or security profiling/questioning, you reeeeally think these people are a threat. Would you be comfortable knowing that because of you and people like you complaining of 'personal space/intrusiveness' many children/families/business men & women aboard a plane are risking their lives ?

Lets say it's solely on you. Would you be comfortable knowing that? I'm going to go with no. People need to get over themselves, it's not about you, it's about the publics safety as a whole. Get over yourselves.
 
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like I said, I don't care if they scan me. I've nothing to be embarrassed about. But I can understand people not liking it, and being invasive about it may not be the best thing.

As for your computer analogy; would you like it if your anti-virus programs had to scan every file on your computer and page you visit, and send them to a separate location where humans would go through them manually to see if they contain a virus? Said people don't know you, so who cares, right?
 
That's the thing, our anti-virus programs need constant updating so they can maintain an accurate account of what is within our systems. The measures in the airports cannot, therefore humans do need to be added to the equation. I'm sure if they were unnecessary and a scanner could catch everything without someone manning them seeing what it is everyone is embarrassed to show, that would be what's in practice. But until a better system is established and implemented we need to do what we need to do.

If an anti-virus wasn't enough and you had a choice (as it's your system, your risk alone, you would have a choice) you could say yes or no to such a thorough exam of your goods. The airport, planes, travel method alone doesn't belong to us. We have the right to use it if we follow specific guidelines and adhere to the rules set forth.
 
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When your flight gets blown up let me know k ;) oh wait, you wont be able to, you'll be dead. People complain up and down when someone manages to sneak something onto a flight, yet cry foul when they are getting patted down? It's a give and take situation here folks. A balance must be struck in this case, but how?

Edit: Lets face it, these terrorists get more and more creative the stricter our security measures get. How long before they start shoving explosives into certain "areas" and we are required to submit to occasional cavity searches? Would you be willing to submit to one in the name of safely flying on a plane?

When was the last time a plane was actually blown up due to terrorist activities? 1988?

but what can they do strid? what miraculous invention/method do you expect them to come up with?

 
When was the last time a plane was actually blown up due to terrorist activities? 1988?



Still won't work, then you'd have moron's bitching about seeing their skeletal structure and what a huge invasion of privacy it is. Although it might let you see the stick up their ass.

Although then the airlines could prove you're not "big boned" and force you to get that second ticket.
 
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I could care less if a machine could scan completely through me and see my bones in motion. It's a tad different when it sees through your clothes as if you were naked.

If that Total Recall x-ray existed I'd be totally okay with that. Certainly would completely nullify the need to get felt up by strangers. I do pat searches as part of my job and if the inmate doesn't feel like I'm molesting them then I ain't doing it right. But these are Inmates, people who have less freedom due to their circumstances than normal free people and naturally have less rights than free people. If the TSA is doing the same kind of pat searches (of which, there's only one way to do them) then it's treating all people as if they're no different than a detainee or criminal.

I still fail to see how this is right and I don't think I'll ever accept it. You can play the whole, "You'll feel differently when your plane blows up" crap to someone else. Even with the old system, what was the rate of terrorist bombings within our own country? I can't say, but I doubt it's really serious enough to warrant all of these changes in every airport. 9/11 happened because terrorists hijacked some planes with box cutters and had an elaborate plan laid out to carry. It was probably in the works years before it even happened, but that's a whole different argument. Point is they didn't use bombs and didn't need to. I thought security measures had already been stepped up since then, some of the large airports were a freaking hassle to get through but they weren't terribly invasive to the point I felt like I was being treated as a inmate/prisoner.

So what's it really boil down to? I'm inclined to believe some people are just taking advantage if idiotic fear mongering to get rich. Everyone enjoys easy money, from the guys on the street corner selling dope, to a former politician exploiting human weakness. The difference is certain people are easier to catch since what they're doing is already known to be illegal, but that doesn't make either type a worthwhile human being. They're all scum.
 
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It's interesting to me when people play the "Well how many planes have been blown up since 9/11?" point into the debate, because it's... superficial.

Or it's the wrong question, to put it another way.

We've had several attempts made to bypass security in order to bring explosive materials onto a plane. Some of them have been stopped preemptively, and some of them have succeeded.

If the "Shoe Bomber" and the "Underwear Bomber", two men who are the root cause of two of the heightened security measures, had been better bomb makers, what would your response be then? Would it be "Well, the terrorists have only blown up a couple planes, killed ~600 people, there's no need for me to deal with arguably invasive security procedures. This is all just profit motivated fear mongering!", or would you think differently?

That's what puzzles me about that line of argument. The system has failed on numerous occasions, and the only reason we haven't had planes getting blown out of the sky is because it's significantly more difficult to put together a working bomb than the average person thinks, particularly when you've got space, shape, and composition limitations to deal with. It's not to say that it's beyond the abilities of your average terrorist, just that the terrorists who have made the attempt thus far haven't been virtuosos in the bomb-making arts.

Or, to boil it down to the basic essence; so far, we've gotten lucky. The clever bomb smuggling ideas have been figured out by people who aren't very good at making the bombs they're smuggling, and don't know enough to know that they don't know enough.
 
ah the land of freedom isn't so free after all ... rejoice my brothers and sisters , we have won !

*serious post *

i don't know about you guys , but aren't you guys kinda digging your own grave on the tourism side by doing all of this , almost all travels agency here in middle east are focusing more on the east then the west

my sister was going to honeymoon to Boston in few mouths but they change their plans because of all of this

i also was in japan about 2 week ago wearing the saudi tradition cloths "Thoub" in the airport and no one ever did stop me , they just do the usually staff they did in Dubai and madinah
 
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i don't know about you guys , but aren't you guys kinda digging your own grave on the tourism side by doing all of this , almost all travels agency here in middle east are focusing more on the east then the west

my sister was going to honeymoon to Boston in few mouths but they change their plans because of all of this

i also was in japan about 2 week ago wearing the saudi tradition cloths "Thoub" in the airport and no one ever did stop me , they just do the usually staff they did in Dubai and madinah
funny you should mention that. you know who's loving this? Amtrak. This was brought up on the local news last week that travel by train has taken off, so to speak. the local Amtrak station recorded a record year in sales this year, and this is expected to increase. so the TSA sort of did Amtrak a favor. :)
 
funny you should mention that. you know who's loving this? Amtrak. This was brought up on the local news last week that travel by train has taken off, so to speak. the local Amtrak station recorded a record year in sales this year, and this is expected to increase. so the TSA sort of did Amtrak a favor. :)

I could dream about this sort of thing being the impetus to finally construct a decent high-speed rail network in the United States, but it's sadly still very unlikely. D:

ah the land of freedom isn't so free after all ... rejoice my brothers and sisters , we have won !

*serious post *

i don't know about you guys , but aren't you guys kinda digging your own grave on the tourism side by doing all of this , almost all travels agency here in middle east are focusing more on the east then the west

Well, if you people would quit trying to blow up our planes, we wouldn't have this problem.

*serious post*

Remove the "you" from the previous statement, and it's... pretty much the essence of the problem. There's this odd correlation between people trying to blow stuff up, and people trying to prevent them from blowing up the aforementioned stuff.
 
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