HNM LS Ethics

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I actually just read on another forum (as I went to try and find some proof for either theory) that some guy has written a script that reads the servers memory and provokes before the enemy even appears... he hasn't released it to the public yet but plans to within a month.

The site requires you to pay for the scripts to download though so I don't know how popular it will be.
 
So Phazen you are with Nasya and Ascension it appears. I see. How unfortunate. Let us get back to the orignal topic at hand and first presented by Phazen and Nasya. Both of you are "angry" or "annoyed" that another linkshell is "stalking" you by using the /sea <input name>. Furthermore, you are annoyed that you believe that this other linkshell is "stealing" your shells efforts by "showing" up at an HNM to counter camp your shell.

First, the /sea <input name> command is used to track down players. You have no control over that, so please do not attempt to tell us that we cannot use that command. It is a built in function to the game, deal with it. As you have said Nasya, your linkshell is a high profile linkshell. You should expect this. Do you expect people to simply turn a blind eye and allow your shell to control any Notorious Monster. No.

Phazen stated that you expect counter campers. Apparently it looks like Svina countered your linkshell. Per the posts, apparently someone got the time of death via "stalking." What you consider "stalking" could be looked as (as I have stated before) a strategic method to acquire a precise time in which a Notorious monster was defeated. Now taking a look at the two points of view, I think mine fares well with a lot more people.

Notorious monsters is about competition. Its about power. What other's do to obtain a time of death is non of your concern. If someone told you that they are stalking you, then that is their initiative, their strategy, their method. You can complain about their methods, but it is a method to tip the scales of power. You say that people are stealing your time, but what about their time? The time the spend watching you, following you, tracking you? Does that not count as time? Different people have different means to accomplish a set goal.

Deal with it.

~Allez ciao~
 
You know Kharg, I wasn't sure whether I should laugh or sigh when I read that post, because I can't tell how serious you are irl. The fact is that you could take the word "stalking" in your post and replace it with "mpk'ing" or "stealing" and it would read the same. Any of those things are strategies to getting ahead, but fails to meet the original point of this thread, ethics. You in no way defended the ethics of what they were doing, just that it was efficient. Obviously I realize that mpk'ing or stealing is worse on an ethical level than stalking, before you try to flame me about that. But I do consider leeching off of someone else's work, at their expense even, to be unethical, especially when that's the intention from the beginning.
 
It's not like these mobs are up and running around for months before you first get them, and then after you get them once everyone else decides to camp them. If it's up and running around freely then whoever killed it last dropped the ball, but that doesn't mean they are done camping it forever. Are you sure this group hadn't been camping it already, and then heard that you had killed it?

Yes MPK and claim stealing after a glitch is low down and dirty, but using /sea isn't all that bad. If you really have that much fear of being stalked, sell the stuff on a mule. It's very possible that if someone stalked you that they got your name from sell history, and were looking to camp simurgh. Either that, or you've pissed someone off so bad that they have made it their mission to counter camp you every chance they get, which isn't all that unheard of.
 
It is the price you pay for having one of the most high-profile HNMLS.

People are lazy. It is far easier to /sea all Nasya and say "Look she is in Rolanberry, Simurgh must be up." Than it is to delegate one of your ls members to sitting in rolan for hours. Whether it is rude or ethical can be debated. I understand Acension's frustration but no one will stop doing it. Asking them to will just make them laugh at you. (Which they are doing it seems.)

I remember when it was still HNMhunters and we would do the same thing to others in other LS's, and I'm fairly sure you still do to a small extent.

The fact that several other LS's show up to whatever you happen to be hunting is very anoying >_<; however there really is nothing to be done about it.

*stealth waves to Nasya*
 
I can't remember any instances where we specifically search for a single person to see what they were up to, Misty. What I do remember is searching specific areas after a server down at approximated times which would result in us sending a scout to obtain the exact ToD so that we could be there tomorrow on time ready for the HNM to pop. You were in our LS, Misty, you should know how we did things. We would wait specifically for a server down to camp something or search the zone as I had said above. This is what I would consider as being "Polite" or "Ethical" in regards to camping HNM's.

This entire thread isn't about how much competition we have been having as of late, but rather how rude it is for people to appear 20-30 minutes into a camp when they could have in no way attained the ToD without specifically using /sea on a certain member. If your LS is prepared to camp the entire window, then every member should be there on time ready for the potential 3 hour camp. Being late to a camp and arriving just because we're still there is much like being told "Hey, thanks for letting us leech off you."
 
The only thing that this thread has done was give those that hadn't thought of the Idea of Searching for you, the Idea to do so...

It's unfortunate. I can garuntee now you will have quite a few more LS's out there countering you people now... They have the breath of self rightiousness, and Defiance. You suggested something of ethics and now they can be the 'Bad-Asses' thay always wanted to be.

You got a couple thousand people on our server. and only about 12 Valuable HNM... There's going to be issues. Even if you convince 2,000 people to act honorably, you still gotta deal with the other 3,000-4,000 that might not.

I understand where you are comming from, being that you have a sort of seniority and all. It reminds me of the jerk offs that use to use me as a marker of when Argus was supposed to spawn. They even had the gaul to ask me for a spawn time. Condidering somone has wasted more or less a day or five in a video game to get an item, what makes you think they are going to be happy to help you? Or better yet, what makes you think you should deserve any information? I started sleeping with my computer on, just for that reason. People can't get a Spawn time if you are Always there right?

But alas I couldn't blame them for trying... And I knew that if I asked them to leave me alone the first thing they would do is make it thier mission to harrass me even more. "How dare you tell me what to do! Fuck you! I do what I want! This is a game and I play it my way!" etc...
 
Mist is right. You can't expect to not have people who would do that to get a TOD... and yeah there are people that'll just go "Oh look Ascension is there, let's go CC them." Hell if you wanna know what, I've said those words a few times, but that's me and my own personal grudge (though I know pleeeeeeeeeeenty others who dislike you guys way more)... honestly I didn't even care about getting the claim, I just wanted to make ya squirm ;/...

Heh... that aside. Expect there will be serious stalkers coming to CC you. But not me... HNM can blow me >_<
 
wow this thread is hilarious.

a HNM belongs to no one....... how you obtain the ToD, or anyone else, is their own business.

if you are that high profile people follow you, deal with it. people follow the president because he is the president..

not gonna be much you can do it about it, and like someone said, complaining about it is going to make it worse...

and ya know what? people will probably piss ya off even more, just on purpose.

vanadiel is free world, kill what you claim....if ya dont claim it, tough.
 
Maybe its just me who is unethical then :P

I remember more than one occasion where i would search Kurei, Happosai, Nnep, and other names to see where they were. Those names are no longer of importance of course but at the time they were good indicators of what HNM was up and when. I would also search Behemoths Dominion and if certain names were present it was likely the king was going to be up, which was a waste of time for us then since we did not have the ability to kill him.

Of course that only means the window is open, and you should send one person to spy for the exact ToD for the next day.

I also considered it extremly rude for an opposing shell to show up very late into the spawn, and still do. It is one thing to send someone for a ToD but it is disheartening to have spammed provoke for 2 hours only to have another linkshell show up during the last hour yet get lucky and nab the monster. It is easy to fall into the trap of feeling you deserve a mob because you worked very hard to get its time and camp it for the full 3 hours. However the game code does not agree with you and many people do not care about politeness.

Again i stress the laziness :P No one will do work if they dont have to. If all it takes is a /sea all ... why should they camp? Many people do not care about reputation, only money. /shrug.

~Happy hunting~
_Misty_
 
Alot of people seem to be missing the point of this thread which is about "Ethics" and not "Rules" of HNM camping. We're also not here to complain about the amount of counters we've been having as of late. What we are discussing about is unspoken courtesies that should be acknowledged by all HNM shells on this server. Being courteous to one another leads to cooperation between shells which in turn, leads to a more enjoyable camp.

Take for example, an HNM that goes unclaimed while your fighting it. Now, based on a persons point of view, there are 2 choices you would make. 1. "Lets claim it as soon as it's yellow so we can get the drops for ourselves even though we didn't claim it." or 2. "They claimed it first, it's theirs by right. Lets wait until they seem to be in trouble or wipe before we claim it." These 2 situations seperates the difference between being "Ethical" and being a "Thief." Of course, there is no set rule saying you can't claim an HNM that goes yellow while another group is fighting it. However, it is polite or "Ethical" if your group waits for a clean chance at the HNM rather than taking someone elses work and turning it into your own.

It's things like that which prevent shells from hating each other as well as having an unspoken courtesy between each others shell. Unfortantly, in certain cases, being hated upon just because of who we are tends to create a lesser ethical environment. It's almost like racism if you ask me, but anyway, back to the point. These again aren't rules that we're forcing down upon anyone that camps HNM's but rather a courtesy between shells that should understood by all.
 
Almaut said:
Alot of people seem to be missing the point of this thread which is about "Ethics" and not "Rules" of HNM camping. .....

Take for example, an HNM that goes unclaimed while your fighting it. Now, based on a persons point of view, there are 2 choices you would make. 1. "Lets claim it as soon as it's yellow so we can get the drops for ourselves even though we didn't claim it." or 2. "They claimed it first, it's theirs by right. Lets wait until they seem to be in trouble or wipe before we claim it." These 2 situations seperates the difference between being "Ethical" and being a "Thief." Of course, there is no set rule saying you can't claim an HNM that goes yellow while another group is fighting it. However, it is polite or "Ethical" if your group waits for a clean chance at the HNM rather than taking someone elses work and turning it into your own.

....
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People here don't disagree with you that mob stealing or MPK is unethical. However, your example doesn't address the the ethics of how people find time of deaths (for lack of a better phrase).

Phazen says that its unethical to search for members of your LS and follow them.

Others disagree with you. Many have said that doing /sea or looking for members of your LS, in order to find Time of Death is not wrong.

Mistaya even has pointed out that your own members do this method of research in order to find the pop time of NMs.

So is there a double standard on your ethics? You're allowed to do it, but others are not?
 
If you had read my response towards Mistaya, you would have read that we didn't search names specifically in regards to getting the ToD of HNM's we camped.

Almaut said:
I can't remember any instances where we specifically search for a single person to see what they were up to, Misty. What I do remember is searching specific areas after a server down at approximated times which would result in us sending a scout to obtain the exact ToD so that we could be there tomorrow on time ready for the HNM to pop. You were in our LS, Misty, you should know how we did things. We would wait specifically for a server down to camp something or search the zone as I had said above. This is what I would consider as being "Polite" or "Ethical" in regards to camping HNM's.
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This entire topic is about ethics, not just our shell specifically. The example I gave was used to differentiate the difference between "rules" and "ethics."[/b]
 
Almaut said:
If you had read my response towards Mistaya, you would have read that we didn't search names specifically in regards to getting the ToD of HNM's we camped.
. . .
This entire topic is about ethics, not just our shell specifically. The example I gave was used to differentiate the difference between "rules" and "ethics."[/b]
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Almaut,

In Mistaya's response, she specially points out that she did search for specific people in order to find out what NMs they are camping

You (Almaut) may not be doing so, but it appears that your members have been.

I'm just pointing out the inequities of your argument. You say that searching for a specific person and counter camping them is unethical. Other say it is not. Other member of your LS (past or present) also have used this method to find out NM pop times to counter camp other groups.

People will not agree with you that searching for people and counter camping is unethical, if they believe that you or your members do the same.
 
In terms of Mistaya and I searching for people would usually be during the window of a server restart. You know when all the spawns were reset, and we would be sitting in one spot spamming provoke in one of the primo locations. During the course of our boring wait we would /sea the other guys to get an estimate when their NMs died, if the players aren't there the NM probably already died right? That was to the extent I know of.

We knew the other HNM shells did this too when they would show up and countercamp if their NM popped early enough to come take ours at the last minute.

It wasn't log on and randomly do /sea hnmperson every 10 minutes to spy/stalk someone. Well, Mistaya and I never did that...
 
Mistaya may have searched the zone to see what certain people were up to, but that does not mean that we would drop everything and go counter someone just because they are there. It is a sack holders decision to decide what we would camp or if we couldn't decide specifically, we would hold a poll to see the general census of everyone in the shell. When/If we did decide, we would send a scout, get the ToD, and be there on time for the start of the window the next day. There hasn't been a single situation that I can remember where we decided to just suddenly go and counter an LS just because they were in a certain zone.
 
Almaut said:
Mistaya may have searched the zone to see what certain people were up to, but that does not mean that we would drop everything and go counter someone just because they are there. It is a sack holders decision to decide what we would camp or if we couldn't decide specifically, we would hold a poll to see the general census of everyone in the shell. When/If we did decide, we would send a scout, get the ToD, and be there on time for the start of the window the next day. There hasn't been a single situation that I can remember where we decided to just suddenly go and counter an LS just because they were in a certain zone.
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Truth.

And Happosai, please do NOT deny you and kurei were not doing the exact same because it would be an absolute LIE. Unlike Acension (known as HNMHunters at that time) _Your_ linkshell would show up with 1hr left on something we were camping. This was months and months ago. At that time we were the only pure NA HNM shell and took a lot of flak from all sides. However we did NOT respond in kind. And on the subject of 'ethics' lets not forget the hundreds of thousands of gil your valient LS leader leeched off his members. I hope that scorpion harness +1 you borrowed gave you a nasty rash.

The question is not whether it is ethical to use a specific person's location as a marker. The question as I see it is whether it is ethical to show up late into the spawn, or called a bunch of friends very quickly together because you noticed <name> in a certain place. Spying the ToD is one thing, showing up is another. I can understand why alm, phaz, and nas are upset here because they worked for the ToD, and some others may not have and just leeched it. But even if they did leech it they still have the right to camp it, however frustrating and dirty a tactic it is. /shrug. :\

I will stress that I am no longer a member of Acension, but wholeheartedly support them as an honest shell.
 
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