Feedback I Cannot be the only one who feels this way

[Skaw]

Where do people come up with this stuff? Sneaky, saying "let's block search engines" is about as poor of an internet argument as comparing someone to hitler.

Reductio ad Googlem?

 

[Makelith]

There doesn't have to be a loving relationship between Sanoske and QCDN for Christ's sake. Unless he's doing something to QCDN (yes, I know some of you actually think he is) then leave it alone. Ridiculous.

I haven't touched ffxi in about a year now, doesn't stop me from occasionally browsing this board, or blue gartr, taking a peek at ffxiah.com, and such

Contrary to my obviously stated stance in the Sanoske flame, I do NOT think people should be banned for flaunting their disregard for the law. However, I think we as a community should ourselves ostracize them for their actions to the point where they don't really feel welcomed enough to stay here, rather than celebrate what they did as "cool" or "awesome". We shouldn't need the admins and mods doing this for us, to be honest.

I read over the threads quickly, Sanoske's original GT thread, either he got banned, decided to quit in the middle of the month or whatever is his decision was posted and he threw in a little "lol" with screen shots of the rl money he made. People then followed with the usual "that's not cool" replies since it was a GT thread.

No forum rules were broken there on anyone's part and it was closed before things got out of hand which was a good decision and as far as it should go I think.


Diamond's FB post is also well warranted, posting about the community's general views on RMT, when a "friend" does it, it's ok etc. The rest of the thread is basically just a discussion on why people agree or disagree with RMT which is what we all can relate to.

It is also possible RMT could use our AH section to broaden their sales without us even noticing.

There was a rule that i've been the better part of a day looking for that says, "Things that happen in game should not, and will not, have any bearing on how we do things on QCDN".

Actually I have one legitimate question to bring up here that relates to Chasym/Sanoske/etc and/or anyone in the future that admits to hacking/gilselling/etc. How are users going to be treated who disagree with what they do and bring it up in topics outside of the flameboard? Say for example there's some topic and Sano posts then someone replies "Well, that's to be expected from a gilseller". Is that considered a flame? I mean, he did come here and brag about it.

I don't think their honesty warrants pot-shots like that. It's one thing to state it as a fact, and another to essentially claim their opinions are worthless due to their past actions. That comes off like a flame, or at least a bait.

If you start banning/singling out/moderating/discriminating against people who have gone against FFXI ToS, then you have to do it for Windower as well as RMT or botting. It's third party after all. If you ask the GMs, using Winamp is 3rd party in relation to FFXI, so it's against the ToS.

If you start doing things on the forum in regards to rules that are completely arbitrary to the forums, where does it stop?

What about the WoW and WAR forums? Would the same sort of system be in place for those?

Point is, where do you stop once you start changing status on the forums based of events that occured in game? If you say only stuff that violates FFXI ToS, A) Better do it for every single violation, regardless of "seriousness" (windower as well as rmt) and B) What about the system that's already in place in game to deal with in game violations?

There's a system in place to deal with in-game violations in game. And there's a system for dealing with forum violations, in the forums. And they really don't overlap, and well they shouldn't since they're seperate after all.

Pointing out though that if it goes beyond the issues being RMT's and it's individuals that break the code of conduct at all, we can't pick shit apart til there's nothing left.

I decided i'd go through the thread and make a little compilation of all the posts i thought raised the most important views. I really love to see this forum working its magic like it has been recently. I also appreciate everyone being civil regarding dissenting opinions.

 

[Malagra]

Malagra, if people want to lie and claim they broke the law then come back and say "loljk", the community doesn't owe them any kind of sympathy or a removal of any slight put on their account. If you play with fire, you get burned.

That was more to the point of "it could happen", so it could be doubted that whatever they did was in fact genuine.

My problem with this whole thing:
You allow someone to make an unproven claim about themselves and out themselves for doing something that you may or may not ever know if they actually did this thing. No one but SE could really track it, and no one here is from SE. So if you put them in this hypothetical "bad" usergroup, you're allowing a baseless claim to act as fact. Alright, that's all fine and dandy. Now, let's say for whatever reason, they later on claim that they didn't do that heinous act they said they did. Another baseless claim, for the same reasons. You must then remove them from the "Bad usergroup" because the only authority who can speak on matters regarding themselves (because no one can ever really know, unless they work with SE) is them. You believed an earlier claim with no substantial evidence, you've set a precedent, so you should also believe any later claims. So anyone could simply remove themselves from any actions taken against them following their public outing of themselves with a simple "No I didn't actually do it".

If you allow someone else to make the same claims, then you must also allow those same claims to be made upon anyone, by anyone. This is going to lead to everyone being a part of this "Bad usergroup" which for all intents and purposes will replace the general member group, and things will then proceed like they do now, except we'll look even worse to people who aren't an active part of QCDN.

Making either of these is just going to be a lot of work for the mods, and kinda useless in the end. Aside from making QCDN look bad, (why do you let hackers, rmt, banned people, post on your site?) if you know someone, you're probably not going to care what usergroup they're on, and some people who were banned are good sources of information. It'll also make complete morons sound more plausible, because they're simply not in the "bad usergroup". If someone is posting info that is part of this usergroup, some people will disregard it immediately, and then some will consider the personal respect they have for the poster, and the poster's reputation on the board. Which already happens.

TL DR;
You're arbitrarily assigning people to usergroups based on things they've said. Arbitrarily because you have no way of checking if the claims are valid or not. You should also be arbitrarily taking them out of usergroups based on things they've said. If you move them into different usergroups based on claims of one person to another, might as well move everyone, because no one would be safe from accusation.

 

[Audino]

L.o.l. How bitter and petty are some of you?

Its this kind of attitude that really makes the whole thing shittier than it has to be. It just goes to show that you came out with it to rub it in everyone's face to say "fuck you" to each and every one when some of us know that you're smart enough to have already known this would happen after admitting to gilselling.

 

[Sanoske]

Its this kind of attitude that really makes the whole thing shittier than it has to be. It just goes to show that you came out with it to rub it in everyone's face to say "fuck you" to each and every one when some of us know that you're smart enough to have already known this would happen after admitting to gilselling.

Like I said, admittedly I may not have known the full consequences of my actions upon posting. But yes I knew it would cause shit, and I was ready to accept that.

However, that being said... the hatred should still be contained to a FFXI basis. If I post on a FFXI topic, I will go with whatever bashing may come my way. The fact that some people are ready to carry over said hatred and disdain to topics which are not even FFXI related? That's a bit much. If people feel the need to hate me on a personal level, they obviously have some thinking to do.

Forgive any typos or poor wording, very tired from work. (inb4 RMT crack)

 

[Lenneth]

I decided i'd go through the thread and make a little compilation of all the posts i thought raised the most important views. I really love to see this forum working its magic like it has been recently. I also appreciate everyone being civil regarding dissenting opinions.

I made the damn thread and had probably one of the strongest views, but mine weren't important? lol. Figures since what I was actually going for either went over at least half the early posters heads or everyone just choose to ignore, though i do respect that some people just didn't agree. Anyways whatever, its fairly obvious that it was mostly just my opinion and others didn't really seem to share it to my extent, a fun debate though.

 

[Diabllos]

The amount of drama raised over the whole issue of Sano combined with the shitstorm he was given is more than enough 'punishment' for what he admitted to doing.

It's a public board for more than just FFXI, and it's not run by SE nor do we have to abide by their ToS.

Peoples' opinions vary so much on issues like this, it's unfair to make a decision in favour of one side of it.

 

[Sneakypants]

Where do people come up with this stuff? Sneaky, saying "let's block search engines" is about as poor of an internet argument as comparing someone to hitler.

It absolutely works. It's ridiculous, but that's my point.

Again with this swill? I've explained myself enough to you, even citing that what you call ridiculous I also call ridiculous. Jesus H. Christ.

With all the things I have actually contributed to these discussions, you only ever manage to come back picking on things within my posts you find ridiculous, and I fully admit that as it is merely an avenue to a point made. The only other thing you've done is bring up piss poor ideas that either fail or are 100% unnecessary.

Post some content worth a damn, offer some actual constructive criticisms towards me, offer an idea that is necessary, or just stop posting. I don't care, just stop posting dumptrucks of bullshit everywhere you go. ffs.

EDIT: I don't mean to say you have contributed nothing or that your posts have driven no conversation.

 

[Arctyrael]

I made the damn thread and had probably one of the strongest views, but mine weren't important? lol. Figures since what I was actually going for either went over at least half the early posters heads or everyone just choose to ignore, though i do respect that some people just didn't agree. Anyways whatever, its fairly obvious that it was mostly just my opinion and others didn't really seem to share it to my extent, a fun debate though.

I certainly feel I gave you due respect in my replies. However, you can't expect the OP to remain virtually pure and intact when other contributions are applied to the topic.

The best way to deal with feedback is to boil down each person's argument into a single, simple sentence.

Pompidou: Ex Post Facto bans are a no go, restrictions thereafter kosher.
Lenneth/Darklion: No users belong on QCDN that contribute to RMT.
Diamond/Airou/Morwen: Lets reasonably restrict the RMTer.
Arctyrael/Javir: Allow the posts so people can choose their own reaction.
Rappa: Allow people their own reactions, BUT remove technical details.
Daveman/Romperstomper/Sneakypants: RMT isn't fully damning.

I know there were a few others, but I am sure the sampling gets my point across, more or less in an accurate manner. There are subtleties clearly not touched upon here, so if you read my summation w/out reading the posts by the individual, you're opinion of their opinion is wrong.

So far what looks to be the best route are some measure of restriction.

• Colored name.
• removing technical details
• access masks

 

[Tristam Green]

Colored name could turn into a badge of honor.

Hurrrrrr, lookit me! I sold gilz, whurr's my [insert godawful HTML code here]-colored name?!

Removing technical details? Such as images/links?

I think that'd work easily enough, but nothing prevents them from just adding it into another post - my guess is that it'd end up being infractionable to do that though.

User/group access masks?

What restriction would be fair? I couldn't say, lol.

 

[Audino]

Its nice to see everything summed up in a neat and orderly fashion, but as the admin of the site (aside from that other guy who's never around) why not just implement what you think is best for the community?

 

[Dejavu]

Its nice to see everything summed up in a neat and orderly fashion, but as the admin of the site (aside from that other guy who's never around) why not just implement what you think is best for the community?

Ah something you never understood... doing something that the community as a whole wants not what you as the admin want...

edited to make sure my position was known...
Arctyrael/Javir/Dejavu: Allow the posts so people can choose their own reaction.

 

[Arctyrael]

The community needs to be what speaks for the community, in instances of providing feedback to the administration as well as how the community is viewed by the world.

The community must also speak for itself on RMT. Since I represent how the rules are enforced, if we come to glorify RMT, I will surely allow another to fill my shoes so I can leave. Until then, I think its best to just let people know where their loyalties lie.

In this case, I have decided, at a minimum, that in all cases the technical details must be removed. I want to allow users their opportunity to sink or swim on their own, in support of RMT players, or opposition. Why? It lets everyone know who is showing their ass beyond the scope of the one player making the confession.

If further restrictions are considered, it will be based on the current ruleset at the time. (No ex post facto). This means you will likely see a new rule in Good Times about RMT. If player X wants to confess, it will be somewhere the discussion can be held. Moderators will enforce flamebaiting rules until the topic is branched to the flameboard, whether that be a new topic started by a member, or split/move by a moderator. It is not hard to follow the site rules in regards to flamebaiting -- all you have to do is make a topic on the flameboard.

 

[Audino]

Ah something you never understood... doing something that the community as a whole wants not what you as the admin want...

edited to make sure my position was known...
Arctyrael/Javir/Dejavu: Allow the posts so people can choose their own reaction.

Bait more? Time to get over my mod days already. Having such a "community" controlled site is part of what makes this forum a joke on other forums.

 

[Arctyrael]

Having such a "community" controlled site is part of what makes this forum a joke on other forums.

It's true, in some instances. If everyone here wants to be gung ho happy about RMT, then I suppose everyone should see the community for what it is, and not what hides behind the rules.

(Just a very practically applied example.)

 

[Sneakypants]

edited to make sure my position was known...
Arctyrael/Javir/Dejavu: Allow the posts so people can choose their own reaction.

I'm with this group ultimately. While I don't feel that selling gil to RMT companies is entirely damning, any time I have expressed that feeling it really been a means to an end. The only reason I have posted anything in any of these threads is to take part in the discussions while I can. My personal feeling is really that I don't want to see anything happen to this board that doesn't absolutely need to happen.

My view is, "Allow the posts so people can choose their own reaction"


Nothing wrong in that, imo.

 

[Excalibur]

Now I'm not one who is normally offended by minor things, but this has to stop. First Chasym's "I hacked but its cool bro" thread, now Sanoske's "I sold Gil and supported the hated RMT, but hell I'm popular so who cares, go me" thread. Is this the face of QCDN nay the entire server we want people to see? Personally it disgusts me that we even allow it right now. So I think that people who admit to doing such activities that damage the server and its reputation should be banned from these forums, no second chances, no "but it only happened once."

I understand this may be unpopular because, lets face it a lot of people here have more going on then they would like to admit to the rest of the server (at least before they quit anyhow) but honestly if we don't we are no worse then IGE itself.

On a related note, Should it be decided that any action against people like Chasym/Sanoske I think we should change the forums name to "Quetzalcoatl Daily News: Home of the Beloved Cheaters"

PS: I have nothing against either of those players as people, just there actions and the way they glorify and flaunt them.

Too busy to read the whole the thread, but in response to the OP: I totally agree. I had the exact same thoughts when Chasym made his "epic" FB post. If I remember correctly we already had the discussion of "should these people be banned?" when chasym admitted to cheating, and obviously no one then cared enough about it, because chasym is still here.

What I don't understand is - we all hate RMT, we all hate cheaters, we all bitch about it all day long in the game, we bitch and bitch about gil sellers and shells that hack, and yet when it comes time to do something about it, we sweep it under the rug because, as it turns out, it's our friends that are the ones doing it. Well I say fuck that. I don't care who the hackers are, all I care about is getting rid of them. I can honestly say that if it had been one of my friends to make the "I'm a cheater" post, I would definately want them banned from this forum. That's not to say I would stop talking to them or stop being their friend, but I think qcdn should have some sort of no tolerance policy when it comes to this kind of stuff. Qcdn should let it be known to everyone that we do not take cheaters lightly, that we do not cater to them and will not host their presence on this board.

If nothing else, simply having a rule like this in place would eliminate these types of posts altogether, and we would probably never have to deal with it again.


If we let it be known that cheaters get banned, then the only people who would make a post flaunting their bullshit would be people who are looking for a ban. Other than that, people would keep their cheating habbits a secret like they've done for years, and things would be back to normal.

 

[Pompidou]

What I don't understand is - we all hate RMT, we all hate cheaters, we all bitch about it all day long in the game, we bitch and bitch about gil sellers and shells that hack...

The problem is, that's not true. Half of us hate RMT. Some of us are RMT. The rest of us applaud RMT. It's not cut and dry. Once a few popular people came out of the RMT closet, a lot of the former gung-ho anti-rmt crowd lost their nerve. "We all" doesn't apply to anything we once took for granted. Half of us are the people we all used to hate. Makes taking an administrative stand a little more complicated. This isn't some case of rally the lynch mob and ban the Blazn. Now it'd be a fair fight.

 

[Chasym]

Man i musta been blind cause i never knew all this was going on.

So im a little late, and i read quite a bit, saw my name come up alot, saw phrases like "The Chasym Effect" and whatnot. And i guess what im about to say isnt what will probly be expected of me. But hey, Im not the same person i was when i wrote the "I quit thread" oh so long ago.

How the people here at QCDN, or how people in most any situation in the world that involves a friend or family member take things that would otherwise be shunned hated upon in the case it was someone they didnt know at all doing it, Is pretty hypocritical.
This of course has been stated within these threads about this Sano situation time and time again.

When i admitted to hacking, i had nothing left to lose, i didnt wanna play anymore, so why not? The same can be said for those who get banned and then come clean when theres nothing to worry about in game.
I was a cocky little prick who didnt care what anyone thought.
And i still live by the fact that i only care what i think of myself. But not in such an elitist manner anymore.

I had members and friends on both sides of the spectrum, hating me, and praising me. The ones who hated me, either already did anyway, or didnt really know me well.
Those who praised me were a majority of the boards whom either just didnt care, thought it was funny, or knew me well enough to consider me a friend.
I tried covering up some of the spotlight on myself by outting everyone i could think of whom i knew hacked. Even outted my entire linkshell and exposed their private forum posts.
Then it became a witch hunt and any name i could have said would have been believed, People believed anything i said even though i deceived them for so long.
So i stopped naming since i saw where it was going.

So why is this different for me from then?

because.

I was wrong.

I still consider it just a game, but in that game were real people playing the same way i was. They were having fun, and they hated playing against cheaters as much as i did. Back then, i only cared about being better. So i figured "Your botting against me? I can bot better"
and thats where it all started. Im an addict to that kind of stuff so i just kept finding more to do, making more things, and i started spreading it to other people.

I contributed majorly to one of the worst times for hacking in the game. And while i could never know, could be one of the reasons they started cracking down harder on those who did.

What did it take to realize the error of my ways? A little bit of growing up, Finding god, being recently diagnosed with a life threatening disease, and then being luckily cured to find out i may have another.
In the past year i have done alot of self growth, I seperated from my wife, And began to build myself up back to a place i was before everything went south.
And i looked back on FFXI, and i remembered all my friends, and all the good times i had for those 2 years before the hacking began. And while most of them were gone when it happened, i thought about how it must have conflicted them to find i was doing what they hated...and then...i thought on how they still stood by me even after the fact.
They stayed true friends, even when i lied and cheated them.
And back then i swore id never say it.
But I'm Sorry.
And that doesnt take away from the fact that it happened, and it never will. You cant go back and change, you can only go forward. I wish i could come back to the game and just start fresh, and for awhile i did, as a taru under the name Kaoss, I brought back my old atmaweapons linkshell and took over as leader, and met with some old friends who had quit long ago and came back just in time. But it wasnt the same...it plagued me, it followed me, no one ever said anything to me about it, but i knew...so i left and never came back, even when offered.

now i saw that its been said that people still attack me and call me a botter here, even after all this time, but to be quite honest...i havent seen anything like that in a long time, in anything ive read or in anything ive posted really. Sure people still remember, and it still gets brought up when anything related to it happens, just like now, but its not in the "i hate you get out of here and everything related to here" manner it was in the beginning.

If the person decides to stay here and not cause problems after admitting to being a low life in the game, then let them. They subject themselves to all the ridicule you can dish out, I certainly know all about that. And im sure they wont be able to uphold the same "i dont care" attitude i did, and it will get to them, even if not right away.
They subject themself to that kind of suffering. A ban would just let them say, hey i did it, look at me, and then not have to care about it anymore, walk away scott free.

If they wanna stay around and be hated, spit on, reminded of what they did, looked at like the devil himself, then let them. It does start to sting eventually.

If your friends of theirs, Sure, Tell em you love em and will always be their friend, but put your foot down and tell them how much disappointment they have caused you and the loss for trust with you they have created. As friends youll be the only ones who can actually get to them and make them realize what they did, even if they dont openly admit it.
I sure coulda used that back then, i needed that slap in the face. I was an asshole.

Knock off the praise, There is no celebrity status for this stuff, after all this time without me playing, my name is still tied to hacking like someone gorilla glued it there. No its not something to be proud of, well not with this chasym anyway, maybe the old one. It may hold a parallel for comparison in the situation sure, but everytime someone follows in my footsteps and makes a thread saying "I did this!" theres another name added to the list of names that will be brought up every single time it happens again.
Dont praise, dont forgive, if your gonna tie a name to something you hate so much, make it known when it happens, because whenever i see my name attatched to it i dont see alot of talk about how wrong it was, it seems touch and go with people.
Its talked about as if it were in good humor.
It wasnt.

I hacked, i created hacks, i distributed them, i bought gil.
I lied, I cheated, I deceived my dearest friends, and any future ones that could have come.
I pretended like it was no big deal, i boasted, i laughed, I was an asshole, i was a prick.
I pretended it was only a game and in relation made it seem like the real people playing meant nothing to me even when they stood by me where most no one should have.

I was wrong.
I am sorry.
I am not forgiven, I will not be.

Dont let it all keep happening. Put your foot down qcdn. Stop the praise for what you hate even if they are your friends.

 

[Pompidou]

Too late for that. You didn't really make cheaters. You and the other big names just gave a golden opportunity to come out of the closet without being singled out. If a stranger came forward alone, before all the revelations, s/he'd be singled out and banned. It's safe to come out now, because popular people made it possible. You cheated. It's bad. Whatever. But that's not the problem anymore. That was probably the one opportunity to cement an anti-RMT stance on the forums, if that was desired. Everyone and their pet cat hadn't yet admitted to being a cheater, so the repercussions would've been small and manageable. Too many cheaters now. The hardline anticheaters are the minority. We always were. We just didn't know it until recently.