Skaw said:
Ok, way to put words in my mouth. I didn't complain that Monk can't tank. I'm complaing that Ninja and Warrior are getting closer to monks damage, while still holding on to, and advancing thier ability to tank. I don't want to tank. What I do want is to not equal out/fall behind in damage to jobs that can.
So it'll "make us too powerful" despite the delay increase that you deemed "huge?" You're a failure at arguing if you keep undermining your previous posts on this topic. Will it be a 30% increase in damage to mix stats to offset the delay? No way. Nothing in the hand to hand arsenal is capable of doing that. Remember, there is no delay reduction in this method, it's a total increase of delay. Quit ignoring that point, when trying to post your bullshit comments. 5 accuracy and 15 attack isn't 30% of my current accuracy and attack.
First off, you came up with those numbers, I didn't second, you contradict yourself very much. One you want higher damage as per the first paragraph and the second paragraph, you are ok with less damage if you can get better stats. Stick with one. Either you want to get more damage or you don't want more damage. If it's for end game mobs, then just use the stats since they obviously are beneficial. If it's for exp, like Bajaratt said, you'd go for Destroyer's anyways.
The huge delay increase is stupid. What I initially meant is giving yourself the added delay of both weapons undermines the entire point of MNK's high DoT. Monk are awesome DD for their DoT and I still say their WS are good too, but nonetheless it's the DoT which makes them. If you want the idea to be even remote useful without making it useless you NEED to halve the delay of each h2h weapon since they account for both hands to begin with and add them plus the base delay after MA. It might be a good idea, it might not be, but the whole thing hinges on whether the weapons are too powerful to be dual wielded so to speak.
Like I already said twice before, single handed weapons stats are based upon both using one weapon or dual wielding two weapons. When the designers make a new weapon, I am sure they have certain guidlines in which they make them so they are not overpowering another weapon or to downplay one stat while boosting another. Shiva's Claws are an example where the base damage is low, but to make the claws worthwhile, they have paralyze effect which occurs often on Ice day. If you were able to DW two claws, you are basically overriding the low damage for one hand while still getting the paralyze effect to proc quite often. While you might say THF's can use Garuda's dagger in the same way with DW, programmers more than likely considered this before designing it into the game making it a known option. The designers didn't make DW h2h weapons; therefore if they did consider it, you might see a huge nerf to the stats of all your weapons when dual wielded making the point of DWing null.
kisada said:
actually, that's wrong. for a general case in which one can actually deal decent melee dmg, wars mnks and nins are all pretty much on par, and for the tougher things a war can surpass all three jobs with proper equipment. a well equipped war can do more damage and hold more hate while taking just about as much damage as a ninja will in many fights.
there's a difference between being able to do it, and being able to be superior at it. in most instances, a good war is the best option, or at least equal to a DD nin. an elite war tanking group is most of the times the superior option because of their pure efficiency.
enmity tends to do very little for jobs that amass large amounts of damage in a short period of time. a blm casting thundaga 3 or a mnk doing a 1k asuran will most certainly pull hate from most tanks; it's very hard to hold back 1000+ dmg that occurs in an instant no matter tank you have. a good mnk/war piles up damage so quickly that it's extremely difficult to hold hate off of them. /war sub provides such a undeniable boost in raw power that generally only elite wars can hold them off.
i'd have to disagree with this statement vehemently. first of all, no job in this game requires evasion to tank. ninjas normally grow up the route thinking that EV is the only way to go, but there are other (and sometimes better) options. second, as monsters become stronger, evasion becomes significantly less effective/useful. with a properly slowed monster, a skilled ninja will be able to to take minimal to no hits even if the monster takes every shadow on every hit. understandably if a war is tanking with only ichi as their option, they'll be spending more time casting than usual, but in the right setup the war can still do the most damage and hold the most hate and take very little in damage. a tank who can combine all three of those qualities is definitely the best option for me.
nin has the extra shadow and can put up great damage, but it's very difficult for them to could keep pace with an elite war, or even mnk (though the main comparison here is with war). as far as enfeebling, the situation has to be extremely dire for me to rely on a ninja for their debuffs. the last time i said to myself "hey ninja, get that slow on" was when me and one other blm were the only ones alive trying to keep control of an after-flailed nidhogg.
for stuff that you can sit and swing at (which is most things except for cop wyrms and other random things), i've never seen any job that could hold hate easier than an elite war. nin can come close but is trumped by the fact that war gets ridill. mnk can generate quite a bit of damage but they require nin sub to tank safely, and that limits their potential quite a bit.
pld obviously is a great tanking job but they require so much maintenance compared to a blinking war that in most instances i'd rather have a war tank.
your argument, as you say, is that other jobs can do it better than war. sorry but i haven't seen any job combination that can hold more hate than a pld and take as little damage as a nin. this in my eyes holds war as the one of the best tanks for most things this game has to offer.
I was mainly referring to exp parties since that's about all I do these days. I don't do much end game as I have lost all taste for it at the moment, but since you bring it up... How many well equipped warriors are there, especially NA? 90% are in your shell so you'd know about it, but beyond that, most members of this forum haven't even done Nidhogg let alone seen it.
But when it comes to exp parties which is where I have drawn most of my experience from (I haven't done many HNMs and none in recent months), NIN will always be better than a WAR or MNK because of the evasion. The whole idea behind it is the less hits done means less curing and less down time. Its all about efficiency and I am sure everyone knows about that. WAR tanking is going to interrupt their swings and lower their overall damage. I'd rather have the NIN take the time, enfeeble and tank while the warrior DD rather than the opposite. It's how most cannons are setup and there is a reason and logic to it.
Most of the warriors I have seen hate tanking beyond level 40 or so. I know I do. I can't deal damage as well, it's been parsed and I do less while trying to tank both because of my style and because of my gear. I can do it, but it also means I am more likely to die. In my experience, it takes a lot of backup work in experience parties to have a WAR tank, far more than say a NIN or PLD, and often times, there is a good chance I will die once or twice easily in a 2 hour party. Not a huge deal if I am making good exp, but that's ~1200 exp each death and 10+ mins lost of time. To be honest, I cannot trust any healer in a party to perform well enough to keep me alive and that's mainly why I don't like it and I don't see WAR as a good tank. As NIN I can outperform as a tank both in keeping hate and without the need of assistance (I don't even remember when I was last hasted, even slowed I can still manage to keep shadows up too) far better than I can as WAR. This is in part due to Ni, but even pre:Ni, my evasion was sufficient to tank using only Ichi even with the same armor setup for WAR.
But in the instances I have witnessed as far as exp or lesser NMs, a MNK can do both what a NIN can do and WAR can do, but better than a WAR. I've seen a MNK/NIN tank Ose which isn't easy when he is constantly double (or is it triple?) attacking. Even for a 75 NIN it wasn't easy and the MNK still had trouble, but far less than a WAR did. It was all about evasion in that situation, no problems with hate, but it still worked. The instance where I was a NIN with the JP monk is another. I don't know how he was able to gain hate like he did (its a mystery to me), but he could do it and the second monk whom was not gimp like Bajaratt wants to believe (not that it matters, at that level, the difference between gimp and elite is 1 def on HQ armor), never got hate because they both intended it to work like that. It was a level 33-36 party for the record. And there have been times where MNKs tank in KRT parties.
My point is just this, MNK aren't deficient. They are anything but. MNK has a self healing ability, a long range instant claiming ability which can also be used for large amounts of damage on end game mobs, they now have Formless strike which enables them to do damage on physically resistant mobs, have top damage in experience parties, can tank to a certain degree, among many other things. In my opinion MNK isn't lacking anything beyond JSE. However, even if SE was to institute JSE for MNK, you can almost be assured it's not going to trump all the past elite armor choices and maybe 1-2 are decent pieces or situational at best. YOu have to realize all jobs have something and MNKs although damage is what they are mainly known for and even if they are slowly losing ground as you say they are, they still have many other things which make them extremely valuable. MNK isn't even close to becoming some washed up RNG now or any time in the future.
h34r: ). What's the point in having different weapons for main and off hand if it doesn't do anything as far as damage. You said it yourself, if they wanted to maintain damage, they'd have two destroyers. Monk is all about the damage. It's not a support (except for that one new merit ability), it's not a healer, it's not a tank. It IS a DD. Skaw originally talked about how MNKs are losing their edge from being the top DD and then he wants an ability that can only weaken its position as a top DD by having different weapons in each hand? Just doesn't make sense. Yah, I guess I just don't get monks, they want everything including the kitchen sink when their job isn't meant to have a kitchen sink.
