Illegal Immigrants, support or against?

Mokk said:
The bolded is an oxymoron. You cannot come here illegally and be a citizen, it's not possible. The sentence previous to it is a nice notion, but you should move out of the 50s and join us here in 06 where this is a line of bullshit designed to score the immigrant vote.

Who are we to say who goes and who stays? The jackasses floating the bill. It's not as if you could come to me at the sizzler, sit at my table and proceed to eat my food without me kicking your ass. The same principle applies here, pay a piece of the check and eat all you want or GTFO.

Your statements are jaded and soft. It's because of people like you America sits in it's current identity crisis, we can't get anything at all done in this country, and the "american dream" has gone by the wayside to make room for the dreams of immigrants who can't be bothered to go through the proper channels, as easy as it is. Congratulations on your ability to lie down and take it.
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Its not easy at all, but I guess i should expect that kind of opinion coming from an American who was born here and was handed everything.
 
Omniscientx said:
A lot of them do pay taxes also.
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Explain to me how an illegal immigrant who has no social security number, green card, legal US identification, or TAX ID pays anything other than maybe sales tax.... oh that's right they don't.

NEXT.
 
Omniscientx said:
Its not easy at all, but I guess i should expect that kind of opinion coming from an American who was born here and was handed everything.
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...

I'd validate you with a response but you've absolutely no idea who the hell you're talking to, kid. When you own a home, some land, a car, pay your bills, and retire at 24 to raise your family you can talk to me about who's recieving handouts.

While we're having this dialogue you should find your way to the flameboard, zero content posts are appreciated there. Unless you've actually got something to say relative to the topic see your ass out of here and to the rules section of QCDN.
 
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I think some of you are confusing illegal immigrants with immigrants in general.
In which the keyword is 'illegal' and the laws about immigration have a purpose, they are not just there to say "Fuck you, Mexico!"
 
Rones said:
How is that fair though? People should pay for their own benefits and earn what they want in life. Making everyone else pay for it is unfair and would disillusion people. It would cause the group loughing I have described time and again.
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In theory maybe, in reality the system that provides every citizen with healthcare, daycare, and free higher education is already working.

Germany does just that. Everyone get's health care coverage. Those who are employed pay for it through their employers and their own contributions. Those who have kids pay a symbolic amount per week, and those who want to go to college not only enjoy education their do not have to pay for (though they still have to pay for books and materials), but the government is actually paying people to go to college.

When I got my degree in Germany in the mid-90's, I was paid to about $400 a month to actually go to college, this was not a loan, it was an incentive basically.

My point is that not talking theory, but reality, the U.S. could easily follow the example of some European nations and provide those services to its citizens. I believe the country would be better off.

Is it fair to charge every citizen for services they do not use?
Sure it is. First off they made a choice not to use the services when it comes to kids and education, and second off even right now Americans living in capitalizm are mandated to pay for government expenses they do not get any benefit from.
 
From what I read on Germany's economy they are suffering from high employment rate of 10.5% currently and weak domestic domand due to wage stagnation. The German government is struggling to rapidly cut costs as they are consistently running a large budget deficit much like the states. This cost cutting is further lowering domestic demand and resulting in reduced benefits that you are praising. GDP is suffering under those heavy social services and the only thing saving it currently is the large export market they have as you can see below.

German GDP change-Source
Year GDP growth rate
2002 +0.2%
2003 -0.1%
2004 +1.6%
2005 +0.9%

I really don't see that as a shining success story. This really comes down to what I was describing origonally. You can have all your benefits, but at the cost of stifiled economic growth. Or you can have less benefits, but greater growth. I personally feel economic growth is better because it will raise the standard of living faster in addition to other benefits. Higher standards of living mean less need for large government services.
Is it fair to charge every citizen for services they do not use?
Sure it is. First off they made a choice not to use the services when it comes to kids and education, and second off even right now Americans living in capitalizm are mandated to pay for government expenses they do not get any benefit from.
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But what's the point? The people who are using the services are still going to pay for it, but in this case the net cost is spread over everyone. Its not free though. Let's say everyone pays $500 per month for some service on your street. For some its childcare, for others its health insurance, etc. Now let's say the government comes and says it will pay for all of it. What's the result? Well now instead of everyone paying $500 per month, they pay $700 per month in taxes (price increase because of inefficient government spending and extra beauracracy). People are not saving anything, they just pay more. Sure, some will pay more, others will pay less. However, the net effect is we pay more.
 
Rones said:
I really don't see that as a shining success story.

Sure, some will pay more, others will pay less. However, the net effect is we pay more.
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The benefit of paying more is that everyone is covered, which makes it worth paying more.

Again, the issue is selfishness vs. compassion. I am not opposed to pay more if that ensures that no one has to sleep under the bridge. You keep saying that if everyone would pay for themselves it would be cheaper. Maybe so, but clearly, in reality, under your plan, many will not receive these services (i.e. currently 45 million Americans without health insurance).

You keep bringing up that the standard of living is higher with higher GDP growth. I keep saying that this may be true in theory, but given the U.S. GDP growth compared to the low German GDP growth, Germany still has a higher standard of living.

The U.S. will never ever catch up to the standard of living of Germany or Sweden. The divide between the richtest and the poorest in the U.S. is just too large, and the oligarchy keeps making sure that it says that way.
 
Rones said:
We are to say because it is our country. By your same flawed logic, you have no right to kick people out who choose to squat in your home. Did you even read any of the previous posts that described the effects of full open door immigration policy? The US would go down the proverbiale toilet as every poor person in the world flooded here expecting streets paved with gold. After the US got used up, they would all run to the next successful country.

This isn't the flameboard. You admit defeat and your own inabilities when you must attack the person instead of the idea.

I realize its a foreign concepts to many Americans today, but why not try not living beyond your means! I do not understand people who think living expenses have to be $1,500 a month. I have a friend who lives in a small aparment, works part time earning $8per hour, and goes to college full time. Her monthly living expenses are $200 rent, $150 for food, and around $200 for utilities, cell phone, internet, cable. She is poor, but she lives comfortably and puts the rest of her money towards college. Her health insurance is covered by her parents job atm, but when she graduates she can easily apply the money she is spending on classes to her own health insurance and have some left over. It is very possible if people don't try to live so far beyond their means and learn how to properly invest and manage their funds.

I also appreciate you totally ignoring my point of the source of healthcare cost problems. That problem I stated before is what makes it difficult to afford healthcare, but there is a nice alternative. Take that $475 per month, and invest it. Never touch, it just invest everytime. After just four years, you will have not only invested $22,800, but will have earned interest depending on how you invested it. Most healthy, young people do not need health insurance. I've gone 10 years with only 2 hospital visits, both for a broken arm. However, this requires people to show some self control, which is impossible for some. Insurance companies make money because people pay them more than they pay out in benefits. One of my professors worked for a health insurance company whose policy was to reject all claims the first time. So few people would reattempt and follow up on the claims, they made large profits off that. Its a giant scam.

I don't think that socialized is the word you are wanting. Socialism is a "system in which the economic means of production are owned and controlled collectively by the people." Your idea is left and a democratic party view, but it's not socialism.

My biggest problem with government healthcare is it is inefficient. Canada for example (I know I'll get bashed for this) has to charge huge amounts in taxes to cover its healthcare costs. Well more than they would if it was done through a capitalist system. The reason the cost is so high for the US and Canada though is a result of our legal systems.

Mal practice suits sky rocket the cost of medical. Its all a dirty scam that is allowed because of the way our courts willingly hand out such large pay outs. Insurance companies for doctors charge more, cost gets passed to the individual health insurance companies, who pass the cost to the customer or government. The source of it all though is the legal system. Restrict that, doctor's insurance would drop, price for medical treatment decreases, saving passed to consumers.

Someone will have to pay for child care regardless. Is it fair to make everyone pay for those who choose to have more kids than they can afford to take of? Costs of children act as a good deterent too people living beyond their means and having too many children. If the day care costs more than the person earns working, then it is more efficient for society over all if that parent stayed home and took care of the child. However, I didn't think day cares cost quite that much. Even then, its only for a few years until the kid reaches elementery school (aka: free day care).

Sounds nice, but wouldn't work well in a capitalist situation. Net cost for society as a whole would be higher. Colleges and book companies could use the opportunity to price gouge the government unless the government took over the colleges personally like our public education system. I don't think that would be a very good result either. I also don't feel right making non-college workers pay for my education.

How is that fair though? People should pay for their own benefits and earn what they want in life. Making everyone else pay for it is unfair and would disillusion people. It would cause the group loughing I have described time and again. As soon as people see they are carrying the load for others or others are carrying their load, the lough. Efficiency drops and motivation is lost. People are only well motivated when it is their neck on the line and they see a direct correlation and causality between their work and their rewards. Humans are social animals, but our survival instincts force us to look out for number one.

From an evolutionary psychology view, social loafing has pretty clear source. Let's say you are living in a small primitive community that pools its food and resources. Now instead of working to provide for the community, you take it easy and live off the work of others. This makes you more likely to live and pass on your genes. For example, less likely to get killed out hunting, more time to make babies. Those who worked just for the good of the community got exploited and did not survival as well as those who just looked for number one. End result: our current instinct that causes social loafing because it increases our likely hood of passing on our genes. This is why it is critical that people don't depend on each other for survival. It causes leeching and removes the motivation to work as hard as you can and contribute to society.

Imagine an mmo where your experience earned was linked with the experience everyone else in the whole world got. Every kill got split among everyone, even those sitting around in town. Would anyone ever bother to go out and exp? What if every dynamsis run and npc purchase cost got split among everyone on the server? Would you be motivated to earn money just so others could spend it and get the rewards? That is what ffxi would be like if it mimiced your desired real world.
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Rones you just prove to me again how much you are what I described in my previous post. America is a country that was built on immigrant work. For us to close the borders now would go against everything that this country stands for. At one point in time there were more people coming into this country than the government could keep tabs on. Now I don't know your ethnic background, but I do know mine, and there is a very widly used derogatory term to describe them. WOP. With Out Papers. There were thousands of these people that came into the country, much in the same fashion that "illegal" immigrants are today that went on to lead productive and socialable lives in these great borders. America, in theroy, was built to be an open door nation.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

Do you know where that is from? I do, and to me it is what I would lay down my life to defend. Wait here is another one, from our forefathers, about what America stands for.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Now tell me where that is from. If you don't agree with the words you just read you are free to move to Canada now. We don't need you here.

Now I ask you again. Who are we to say that this person gets to stay and this one gets the boot?

On to the health care bit now.

It's great that your friend doesn't mind living in poverty. Hell I would have no problem going back to the Raman noodle lifestyle that I led in my early 20s, but I feel that I've grown out of that. Granted it's great to live in a little one room apartment for $200 a month, and obviously they don't have to pay full utilities because just for gas in my house I'm paying $80 dollars a month. Now that is also on a budget plan to where I pay that all year round, even in the summer when I don't use nearly that much gas. Then there is also electric, water/sewage, trash, phone, rent, insurance....$200/month please sign me up!!! To be honest though I hope your friend gets a decent job, with medical, coming out of school because there is also those student loan payments to look foward to also.

I never ignored your statment about medical coverage costing too much because of malpractice suits, I just accepted it as fact. What is that money going to do though that you invest if you get sick without health insurance? When I was 22 I went though a hernia operation, didn't have health insurance, and ended up paying $200 for the doctor, $450 for the drugs that they used on me in the operation, $1000 for the room the operation was done in, $150 per nurse that assisted the doctor in the operation (there were 3), and some other charges, that I can't remember what they were for without getting the reciepts out, that ended up costing me close to 3k just so I could be heathy again. That amount doesn't even bring into effect the money I payed just for a doctor to tell me that I actually had a hernia. Seriously though, get off of your high horse and come back down to earth. Maybe when you have to start paying your own way you will understand a little more about the way that life works. That is, unless you like living in poverty.
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

The stinky mexicans need to go home. Sure, they're providing free labor, but they want to be considered legitimate citizens now with full benefits for breaking the law and coming over here illegaly. What kind of precedent is that going to set? If enough people break a law, then that law will be bent to accomodate for the law breakers?

If that's the case, then downloading MP3's shouldn't be considered illegal when you aren't paying for them and don't own the original albums.

People knew their visas were going to expire. People knew that they were entering this country in ways contrary to what our laws say is acceptable. Why can't they do things legitimately? What about all of the people that actually took the time to do things the way our laws say they should be done? It suddenly makes their legitimate citizenship worth much less because some mexicans working in a strawberry field didn't want to take the time to do things the right way.

I am sympathetic toward people that are less fortunate, but laws are laws, and they must be followed. I've come from living near the slums, to having everything I want, so I'm no stranger to not being able to afford things. If people are persistant in going after what they want, they will get it eventually. Being persistant about having the law changed show you can slip through the system more easily is just a load of crap, especially when there are millions of people before you that have gone and done things the legitimate way and were completely successful.

I have absolutely no problem with people doing things according to what the law says, and welcome them to the US and to become citizens, but if they aren't going to take the time to do things correctly, then they need to be stuffed into a van and shipped back to their native countries.
 
who said close the borders? No.. nothing wrong with that. It's true the reason our country flourished into what it is now was because of the millions of immigrants that came from mostly european countries to help work and such (also the grand inventions like the steam boat and cotton gin). What we (atleast myself) is for those illegally here (entered illegally or here passed their visas) to be punished as the law says it so. Now, those here passed their visas that prove to be valuable members of society and for some reason can not get a renewal (and that seems very rare at that). Those that come in illegal and might be productive members of society should still be deported and come in legally or.. perhaps in rare cases (depending things) they could be given a visa even though they entered illegally but I can't think of any special case off the top of my mind. Laws are laws and should be followed.

Oh, and about the "more people coming in the country than the government could keep tabs." Those would be the ones that entered areas via Texas and such before it became colonized. Believe it or not.. pretty much everything west of Ohio was pretty rugged where people lived as mostly substance farmers. So, ya, perhaps there were a few that entered and weren't kept track of but that's due to the fact they didn't enter in or into any civilized area of the US. Hell, the federal goverment barely did much (in terms of governing). The state goverments did that and most of those also didn't keep the best of records because they were concerned with other things usually. There were indeed documents though of most that entered concerding the majority of immigrants came from ireland, germany, france, etc.

By the way.. where was it anyone send immigration is bad and we should close the borders off? I don't really remember Rones saying that at all or anyone else. Everyone should know that immigration in the early 1800s helped in a great way make this country strong and pretty succesful and immigration shouldn't be a problem as, yes, people are welcomed into this country. HOWEVER, they should still be excepted to follow the laws of the US from the very second they enter the US territory just as the US Citizens should. There are laws concerning immigrations cause the US government would 1) like to keep diseases out as best we can (hence the screening when they enter and those with diseases generally aren't allowed in until cured, I see this as acceptable being the US government is supposed to protect its people as best it can) 2) keep those that would be unwanted (those that would be degenerates as Locke would call them.. which would generally be those that don't work well or follow the rules etc). The country has immigration policies to protec the citizens of the US.

Oh, and your health care thing.. doesn't your work provide health coverage? The only jobs I've worked have been on campus (so I already have health coverage with the whole living plan and such and under my parent since I'm still a dependant). It seems to me, however, that jobs provide health coverage for atleast full time employees. If you are paying for yourself you should have a full time job right? o.o

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Omniscientx said:
Its not easy at all, but I guess i should expect that kind of opinion coming from an American who was born here and was handed everything.
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sometimes.. I really think you need to get off your "Hate American /emo" ways and learn the truth. Granted, things might not be easy to acquire or having a good life.. but who the hell said life was easy? It isn't easy and it isn't easy because of society. If everyone had their own island that they lived on alone then life would prolly be a lot easier. But, when people begin to associate with each other things like greed and whatnot come into play and things become complicated. Life isn't easy, never will be easy.
 
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Shaunessy, for future reference...don't quote an entire long post. That is something forum noobs do and you should know better. 2/3 of that wasn't even about you. Quote what you are responding to specifically.
Shaunessy said:
Rones you just prove to me again how much you are what I described in my previous post.
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If I was, would I be arguing everyone should earn their own way. If I was what you described, I would be exactly the opposite of my current stance, encouraging of people getting free rides.
Shaunessy said:
For us to close the borders now would go against everything that this country stands for.
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You fail. You haven't read anything in this thread if you assume that is our position. No one has said to close the borders. We just want people to come in through the legal process.
Shaunessy said:
Now I ask you again. Who are we to say that this person gets to stay and this one gets the boot?
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Because it is our country. I already countered this very argument, and you have ignored that, thus I'll repeat until you produce a counter: Your logic also states you could not kick a squater out of your house. That is obviously wrong and makes your logic wrong.
Shaunessy said:
It's great that your friend doesn't mind living in poverty
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To be honest though I hope your friend gets a decent job, with medical, coming out of school because there is also those student loan payments to look foward to also.
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Did you miss the part where I said she was paying for her college too? People can live happily and comfortably within their means if they try. If you go through life just wanting more, more, more then you will never satisfied. So nice of you to condescend someone who has been more successful than you apparently at finding how to be content with little.

As for medical insurance, we have identified the source of the problem for high costs. Yet, instead of arguging that we fix the problem, you urge the creation of a band-aid which simply makes the problem more acceptable and perpetuates it, delaying a proper solution.
Shaunessy said:
When I was 22 I went though a hernia operation, didn't have health insurance, and ended up paying $200 for the doctor, $450 for the drugs that they used on me in the operation, $1000 for the room the operation was done in, $150 per nurse that assisted the doctor in the operation (there were 3), and some other charges, that I can't remember what they were for without getting the reciepts out, that ended up costing me close to 3k just so I could be heathy again.
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It cost you $3k. Now consider how much you pay per year for health insurance. You stated $475 per month, so 475 x 12 = $5,700. What do you know, you saved money by not having health insurance. :wacko: Your example is even against you.
Maybe when you have to start paying your own way you will understand a little more about the way that life works. That is, unless you like living in poverty.
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Leave insult trash to the flameboard if you want to continue this discussion. If you want to come off as the knowledgeable, experienced, mature adult, this isn't doing you any favors. Show some respect and maturity for a change. Really posts the strength of an argument.
 
Extremely off topic, but I feel it needs to be said...

Rones said:
I've gone 10 years with only 2 hospital visits, both for a broken arm.
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This pic immediatly poped into my mind. That'll teach ya to read the signs ya silly bastard :wink:

Also, to give a little more clarity on the question as to wether or not illegals pay taxes...

As I stated earlier in this thread, I've had jobs working with illegals in resteraunts and the hotel business. If they don't have a social security number, they can't work. Federal taxes are taken out of every check and paid to the government. Unless they are workin for Joe Bobs construction or a Mom n Pop store, they pay more taxes than they should. The reason being, the Social Security numbers are fake or used by multiple people, and they never claim a refund.
 
Democrats want guest vote program... Oh, I mean guest worker program. (guest vote, cause the only reason thay support ILLIGAL immagrants, cause thay think thay can win there votes by being on there side).

Can't reward people who break law. If you say "we always welcomed illigal immagrints before" You could also say back in civil war "Africans were always slaves before" Times change, and nows the time to enforce boarder from illegals.

Think its all right for someone to rob a bank if it was to make a better life for there children?
 
Mariox said:
Democrats want guest vote program... Oh, I mean guest worker program. (guest vote, cause the only reason thay support ILLIGAL immagrants, cause thay think thay can win there votes by being on there side).

Can't reward people who break law. If you say "we always welcomed illigal immagrints before" You could also say back in civil war "Africans were always slaves before" Times change, and nows the time to enforce boarder from illegals.

Think its all right for someone to rob a bank if it was to make a better life for there children?
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I need some IRL bullets how much for you to synth eh, four dozen stacks :p ?
 
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