Illegal Immigrants, support or against?

[Elemmire]

Ahem, I know more about that process than you will ever, im sure, so you don't have to try to look smart.

And no, permanent resident does not mean what you think it does. It means 1) Living here by VISA
2) Living here with a green card
3) Living here by amnesty from countries
4) Going through process of obtaining legal status (Authorization to work)

oye.. read the damn page fully through... I really wish my friend who is an immigrant that came here would post on this -_- he's now a US Citizen.. dur!

 

[Trippyhippy]

You are forgetting a key element. These illegeals are working jobs that can not be exported over seas (such as dishwashing, picking fruit, landscaping). How would I off shore getting my lawn mowed or re-roofing a house? These minimum wage, 'dirty' jobs can't be exported. If they could, they would have already. Tyson HQ and processing plant is near where I live and they are massive employers of Hispanic immigrants, legan and illegeal. They are here because this is where the chickens are grown they sell. Do you think they would off shore their processing plant to China which would require them to ship the chickens to bird flu ground zero and then ship them right back after being processed? This is just one of many examples.

Interesting point. But there are still goods that have that little "Made in the USA" sticker on them. You will see far less of that. It all leads back to big business doing whatever is more cost effective. More along the lines of clothes and toys. Well... pretty much anything that's not food actually.

Prices of those basic services would increase some, demand would decrease some, and a new equilibrium would be formed. A key point though, is wages for those jobs would increase, and the primary users of those low wage, blue collar servicers are middle and upper class. Wages would be forced to increase to fill the demand, there is no way you can deny that. Thus, wage differences between all classes would decrease exactly like you always claim to want in our other threads.

There is no such thing as a society without a lower class. Right now the immigrants make up a large portion of our lower class. If they are gone, sure, wages will rise, but so will the cost of living. It's capitalism, someone is getting the short end of the stick.

This would do exactly what you have been asking for in all your threads in the past. This would help the legal lower class citizens of the US. The illegeals take money out of our economy in the form of government benefits they didn't pay taxes for and money shipped back to Mexico.

I worked at "Cracker Barrel" in the Dish room before I got this job as a hotel desk clerk. Every single mexican I worked with, and there were plenty of them had a social Security Number attached to thier record. One time, a couple of them got in trouble because it was the same number. The payroll taxes are being deducted, they just aren't filing for a refund. And noone but church people escape sales tax.

As far as them taking money out of our economy, they sure do. They send thousands of dollars back to their families in mexico. These people, in turn, pay a truckdriver anywhere from $2000-$3000 per person to come across the boarder in the back of a truck. Out of the 20 or so that I worked with all of them did it this way except the ones that were born here.

Personally, I don't believe they they are as much of a drain on our economy as everyone else seems to think. A lot of the money they make stays in america or ends up coming back here.

There are a few that come here, work for 2 years, save up as much money as they can, then go back to Mexico and live like a king for 5 years, rinse, repeat. But those are far and few between.

I suppose my final thought on the subject is: I don't care. They are people too. It's lots of fighting over an imaginary line that was created after our ancestors killed all the "Savages" and took their land under the guise of "Manifest Destiny". If they did actually stay in mexico, that would just be that much more Foriegn Aid that we payed out to help out friends along the southern boarder. Either that or we'd invade. That also brings up the point that Mexico desreves our help more than Iraq.

To OmniciantX : The above is a good example of how to have a cival political debate. Calm down man. Smoke a bowl. Relax. None of us are in any sort of political power. Our opinions mean nothing. They are just words. Being angry doesn't help get your point across.

 

[Omniscientx]

oye.. read the damn page fully through... I really wish my friend who is an immigrant that came here would post on this -_- he's now a US Citizen.. dur!

Mmmmm, guess what. I went through everything we've been arguing about.
Treehippy, I havent "flamed" anyone since the shaidalyn w/e post.
I might be wrong, but then explain how it would work? Visas only permit you to stay 6 months, and then you have to go back and come back USA. If you want to change my mind, then explain. I've experienced a lot of shit about this stuff, because I am an immigrant, and I've never heard of it. So enlighten me.

 

[Answa~]

You guys love to make a fight over anything. It doesn't matter what you do, they'll still keep coming, and it'll stay a problem until you do something to help make the process more smooth. You say they don't pay taxes, then make them legal and make them pay taxes. Simple, eh? It's easy to look at everything in a big open frame where you can just move the stick figures to please your eyes. Fact of the matter is, though, that it's millions of individual people who don't share one mind and one circumstance. None of you have any right to dictate how their lives should end up, no matter how much your number theory suggests they're screwing your economy up.

Also, none of you have any right to call any country but your own a "rat hole", "shit hole", or whatever else kind of insult you have. Right now the only country I can feel safe to call it is yours, not because of the economic, geographical, political, etc. standpoints, but rather by seeing how cold you're all behaving.

[Edit]: Grammar.

 

[Omniscientx]

You guys love to make a fight over anything. It doesn't matter what you do, they'll still keep coming, and it'll stay a problem until you do something to help make the process more smooth. You say they don't pay taxes, then make them legal and make them pay taxes. Simple, eh? It's easy to look at everything in a big open frame where you can just move the stick figures to please your eyes. Fact of the matter is, though, that it's millions of individual people who don't share one mind and one circumstance. None of you have any right to dictate how their lives should end up, no matter how much your number theory suggests they're screwing your economy up.

Also, none of you have any right to call any country but your own a "rat hole", "shit hole", or whatever else kind of insult you have. Right now the only country I can feel safe to call it is yours, not because of the economic, geographical, political, etc. standpoints, but rather by seeing how cold you're all behaving.

[Edit]: Grammar.

Puerto Rico has the hawtest girls
oh, yea, I agree with everything you said. Just felt like letting that be known..

 

[Strid]

gee tee eff ohh

 

[Rones]

You say they don't pay taxes, then make them legal and make them pay taxes. Simple, eh?

I just laugh when I hear this suggestion. Illegeal immigration would increase ten fold if we just started making everyone legal who ran across. No one would even bother going through the legal paper work. Just run across and get your free citizenship. :banghead3:

None of you have any right to dictate how their lives should end up

We do have a right when they are coming into our country illegeally. They have rights in their country, none in ours. Heck, your same logic would defend me squating in your home just because I feel like it and you can't dictate how I live. They aren't citizens, they don't have rights here. If they want rights, they can stay where they are or come in legally.

Also, none of you have any right to call any country but your own a "rat hole", "shit hole", or whatever else kind of insult you have. Right now the only country I can feel safe to call it is yours, not because of the economic, geographical, political, etc. standpoints, but rather by seeing how cold you're all behaving.

That logic is also flawed. So because you think we are cruel, we can't call a third world countries whose citizens are fleeing due to poor living coniditions a rat hole? Didn't you just say we didn't have a right to press our will on others, yet here you wish to censor an entire country because of your single opinion. Not even going to say the word for that.

There is no such thing as a society without a lower class. Right now the immigrants make up a large portion of our lower class. If they are gone, sure, wages will rise, but so will the cost of living. It's capitalism, someone is getting the short end of the stick.

True, by no means would it remove the lower class. That is mainly in response to people who say it will ruin the economy. If anything, it will help the lower class. The ones getting the short end of the stick would be the middle and upper class who use those services.

I worked at "Cracker Barrel" in the Dish room before I got this job as a hotel desk clerk. Every single mexican I worked with, and there were plenty of them had a social Security Number attached to thier record.

Depends on the location. There are many jobs where illegeals work that bypasses the tax system. Biggest culprit is probably outdoor work such as construction, lawn services, roofing, etc. The employer knows they are illegeal, pays them with cash, and never puts them on the books.

 

[Palidine]

You're the idiot buddy. This whole thing isnt just about MEXICANS JUMPING THE BORDER.

ITS ALSO ABOUT PEOPLE COMING HERE LEGALLY AND STAYING PAST THEIR VISAS CAUSING THEM TO BECOME ILLEGAL

QFT! yup!

Hmmm didn't 17 out of 19 9/11 hi-jackers have that problem too?
I wish we we're enforcing Visas then. and sending the national guard to the borders. and deporting whoever is caught being here illegaly. Like most of the Other countries in the world do. You know the ones nobody cares what thier citezenship laws are like cause no one wants it?

All I'd like to see is laws being enforced.
They are already on the books. Hmmm wonder if I could pick and chose which laws should apply to me. I mean as an American citizen I should have some kinda of rights that allow me to do that too. Don't you think?

 

[Sirelrohir]

I'm not reading all of the replies because Omni, an obvious retard, has infiltrated and most will end up back at him.
[rant]This is America. I am an American. My grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaat grand parents may have just came and settled down, but that's how every nation in all of existance started so shut that crap off now.
"No human is illegal" WTF? If you came here illegally... get the hell out.
I don't pay taxes so you and your fat lazy family can suck off the system, get your OWN country better, get the hell out of ours.
This is NOT 1600's... this is not 1700's.. 1800's.. it's not even 1900's.. this is 2006.. we have laws. If you do not respect those laws you shouldn't become involved and LEAVE.
We don't need more people here, we are comfortable. You want to come? Do it legally.. I don't give a damn about your dying mother, unborn child, or tyrannical leader. I don't care where you come from or why. Your problems are not mine.
I LOVE people who come here to make a TRUE LIVING. Who are a real citizen, who work and pay taxes, and do everything legally.
It's these shit bag immigrant pieces of garbage who think they can just bypass the whole process and drag our nation into the sewers like the shithole they came from. Nah, my parents, aunts, uncles, granparents and so forth did not go out and fight and die so you can bitch about your welfare or the fact our AMERICAN schools speak your fuckin language. You come to America, you do shit OUR way, no one gives a shit about how you did it in Mexico, or wherever. This is no other country, this is the US.
You wanna come here? Learn the laws, learn the language, work for a living, and follow how OUR country is run,
You came here to "escape" your shithole, don't think you can turn it into one too. You come here, you do it our way or no way.
Fuck this "racial sensitivity" shit, I go to work, I speak ENGLISH. You wanna come here? Fuckin learn it. I don't care about your holidays, celebrate them, you don't wanna celebrate ours? Ok! I'm all for you being your own person but don't think you can fuckin "That offends me!" you fuckin came here, you assimilate to OUR way of life.
You can keep your religion/culture/everything,... as long as it doesn't impede mine.
Illegal should be dragged out and tossed back into mexico like old cargo. This is the scum of the nation that makes the whole country sink.
This is America. Founded on a Christian belief with English speaking ancestors.
We don't shove it down your throat and say "Christian or death" we dont FORCE you to celebrate our holidays and we allow you to keep your own. (Yes we ALLOW.. it's a PRIVILEGE) That doesn't mean you and your muslim/athiest/buddhist/whatever friends can come out and demand we take down a Crucifix or Christmas Tree or Easter Bunny cause it "offends" you. You came here, you live here, you follow the way it is here. Don't like it? Get out. That goes for the left too.[/rant]

I feel better. Please pardon the language and the typos. ^^

Did everyone miss this gem? Is this chick some crazy facist that hates non-cristians and BSTs? When it comes to religion, you are dead wrong. It is NOT a privlege. It is absolutly a right that is protected by the Bill of Rights. This is america, founded on freedom of religion. Should there be a seperation between church and state? absolutly. Show me one example of any of the religions u mentioned above 'demanding' that a crucifix be taken down. And dont bother bringing up 10 commandments on PUBLIC property, because that is absolutly what the following addresses:

Amendment I of the Bill of Rights
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Its people like you that want to make this country the Christian version of Iran.

 

[Sculli]

And yes I know they're still just as illegal, but they came here legally which atleast means they're trying to make a living, thats all I'm saying. Im not saying they should be kept and the Mexicans deported. But they should be given more options to remain in America, because there isn't really much you could do.

I really can't follow this line of reasoning. A Mexican, who risks his life swimming across the river, and then starts mowing someone's lawn for a pittance in wages means that he is not trying to make a living?

People who entered on H visas and stayed beyond their legally allowed time should not get any special treatment at all, they are they very same as those who swim across the river. Legally, and morally, there is not difference between the two. In fact, if anything, then the one who is swimming has more guts than the one who extended his stay.

And no, permanent resident does not mean what you think it does. It means 1) Living here by VISA

I am pretty sure that there is no permanent residency status granted by a visa.

Re: from visa to residency/citizenship
H visas can be converted to permanent residency status, and subsequently citizenship. It actually happens quite often, but only applies to an educated worker where the employer is the sponsor and where the employer can make a case for the need of this particular individual.

It really doesn't matter how much you are trying to reason it, illegal remains illegal, no matter how and who and where and what. Fact is that residency was obtained against the law.

You can argue that the law is wrong, and that is fine, but the act of staying in the US after the visa expires is a federal offense, there are no two ways about it.

 

[Trippyhippy]

This is America. Founded on a Christian belief with English speaking ancestors.
We don't shove it down your throat and say "Christian or death" we dont FORCE you to celebrate our holidays and we allow you to keep your own. (Yes we ALLOW.. it's a PRIVILEGE)

There is just so much wrong with this, I don't really even know where to start.

America was founded on christian beliefs if you think of the begining of america was with the puritans. Which it wasn't. It was quite a bit later.

Also, my ancestors didn't speak english, the spoke Cherokee, French and German. Many of the people living in america also have ancestory from all over Europe and Africa as well. And if you want to talk about American ancestory, talk about Blackfeet, Caddo, Carrier, Catawba, Cayuga , Cheyenne, Chickasaw, Chicora, Chilcotin, Chippewa, Chippewa Cree, Chitimacha, Chocataw, Cherokee, Chumash, Coharie, Comanche,
Costanoan, Cowlitz, Cree, Creek, Crow, Dakota, Delaware, Dene, Edisto, Essellen, Goshute , Gros Ventree, Gwitch'In, Haida, Haliwa-Sponi, Hidatsa, Ho Chunk , Hohokam, Hopi, Houma, Hupa, Huron, Illinois, Innu, Inuit, Inupiaq, Iowa, Iroquois, Kalispel, Kaw, Kiowa, Klallam, Klamath, Kootenai, Lakota,
Lumbee, Maidu, Makah, Mandan, Mattaponi, Meherrin, Menominee, Metis, Miami, Mingo, Miwok, Mohawk, Mohegan, Monacan, Montaucketts, Munsee Delaware, Nansemond, Navaho, Nez Perce, Nisga'a, Nootka, Ohlone, jibwe, Omaha, Oneida, Onondaga, Osage, Ottawa, Paiute, Pamunkey, Pawnee, Peoria, Pequot, Pima, Potawatomi, Powhatan, Pueblo, Quapaw, Quinault, Ramapough, Sac and Fox , Salish, Saponi, Secwepemc, Seminole,Seneca, Shawnee, Shinnecock, Shoshone, Shuswap, Siletz,Sioux, Spokane, Steilacoom, Suquamish, Susquehanna, Tlingit, Tonkawa, Tsilhqot'In, Tuscarora, Umatilla, Umpqua, Ute, Wabanaki, Waccamaw-Sioun, Wampanoag, Warm Springs Indians, Washoe, Wea, Wendat, Wichita, Wiyot, and Wyandot ancestory. Ya know, the people we killed and took the country from? Don't act like this countrys native language is english. If you want to live in a place where English is the native language, go to England.

Christianity is shoved down the throats of everyone in america who has ever read a newspaper/magazine or periodicle of any kind or watched television. You don't notice things like that when you aren't a christian. Way to notice what's goin on in the world around you. Oh, and so you know, most illegal immigrants coming from Mexico are Catholic. Every christian religion stems from Catholicism.

Under no circumstances is freedom of religion a privilege. It's a right. I don't care if you live in america or not, legal or illegal. Freedom of religion is one of the best things about this country and it is taken for granted by the people that fall into the majority when classified religously. When was the last time you opened a shopping catalog in december and saw 10 pages of menorahs? Or 10 pages of nothing related to the holidays? Is it possible to leave your home in december at not feel like you are left out because you don't celebrate Christmas? Not likely.

Next time you want to rant about religion and this being a christian country, remember this: Hitler was a devoute christian and brought his beliefs with him to the office.

 

[Kire]

or tripple New england for english

 

[Ithenas]

Is it possible to leave your home in december at not feel like you are left out because you don't celebrate Christmas? Not likely.

um...actually yea it is, heh. it's called Political Correctness, about 70% of the stores i went into last december had nothing to do with Christmas. i saw happy haunacka (i know i butchered that) happy kawnza, and....happy holidays. not a word about Christmas. Infact Target and Walmart had banned the word Christmas from appearing in any of their stores or on their websites last decemeber. it's freedom OF relegion, not freedom FROM relegion.

*edit* few more things. my dad went to a holiday party that his company held...not a christmas party. and that big ass tree the put up in new york?? was offically called a holiday tree, not a christmas tree.

 

[Sneakypants]

You guys love to make a fight over anything. It doesn't matter what you do, they'll still keep coming, and it'll stay a problem until you do something to help make the process more smooth. You say they don't pay taxes, then make them legal and make them pay taxes. Simple, eh? It's easy to look at everything in a big open frame where you can just move the stick figures to please your eyes. Fact of the matter is, though, that it's millions of individual people who don't share one mind and one circumstance. None of you have any right to dictate how their lives should end up, no matter how much your number theory suggests they're screwing your economy up.

Also, none of you have any right to call any country but your own a "rat hole", "shit hole", or whatever else kind of insult you have. Right now the only country I can feel safe to call it is yours, not because of the economic, geographical, political, etc. standpoints, but rather by seeing how cold you're all behaving.

[Edit]: Grammar.

I think this is dead on, mostly. Although it's not addressing the issue so much as the symptoms and secondary discussions at this point.

The place where I disagree, and any red-blooded American would disagree, is part where I don't have the right to call some other country a shit hole. I absolutely do have that right. I have that right to say what ever, about where ever, involving who ever, when ever I so please. God help the person that would choose to have any kind of problem with that.

 

[Sirelrohir]

um...actually yea it is, heh. it's called Political Correctness, about 70% of the stores i went into last december had nothing to do with Christmas. i saw happy haunacka (i know i butchered that) happy kawnza, and....happy holidays. not a word about Christmas. Infact Target and Walmart had banned the word Christmas from appearing in any of their stores or on their websites last decemeber. it's freedom OF relegion, not freedom FROM relegion.

*edit* few more things. my dad went to a holiday party that his company held...not a christmas party. and that big ass tree the put up in new york?? was offically called a holiday tree, not a christmas tree.

In the case of the stores that you mentioned, those are private institutions, and I dont think anyone would care if they say merry christmas. If you have complaints about them not using christmas, then you could always send them an email saying you are offended that they didnt celebrate the holiday. Most likely the reasoning to do this was for some business decision, but who knows. Its probably safe to say that most non christians wouldnt care either way.

As for the holiday tree in new york, well if it was on public land, then i think legitimate to not call it a christmas tree, b/c while the majority of the country is christian, the country itself isnt officially christian. By putting anything religious on public land, it would be an endorsment of a specific religion, basically circumventing ammendment I of the bill of rights. If however, it was on private land, then the people absolutly have the right to call it whatever kind of tree they want.

 

[Mishaela]

Alot of immigrants come to the US (or wherever other country) to escape tyranny, have a better chance at success, make a new start, etc......but alot come simply to abuse the economy and misc crap like that. It's two sides of a coin in the end. Some of them have a truely justified cause to escape to whichever country they head to, but alot of them are just scum....but then, alot of people legally living where they are are as well. =/

I personally despise illegal immigration. It screws over job availability, housing availbility, wages, probably several other things not crossing my mind right now. Though, chances are if where I lived was self-defined as "a living hell", I'd probably do anything I could to goto a place I saw as better too..

 

[Sneakypants]

lol @ Christmas Tree.

It's always been a Christmas Tree. It didn't offend people...Not until certain people showed up and started bitching. It's still Christmas and it's still merry ya bastids. Get bent.

I'll be over here ignoring all your stupid holidays and beliefs because I don't care. Yeah, ignoring is the best they'll get. It's more of a harmony to ignore and not care than to move in and try to slowly take over via bitching and whining that things just aren't the way they'd like. WTF? Shut ass, bitches.

 

[Sneakypants]

BTW - www.numbersusa.com
<please check it>

 

[Isotope]

World Unified Nation Gov't 4tw! :biggrin: If you don't like it... MOVE TO A SPACE COLONY!!!
In all seriousness though here's my opinion:

1) Immigrate the right & legal way. Those that are here illegally, reguardless of how long they been here... here's what we need to do with em..... Seriously tighten borders, broadcast to those already here that starting on a certain date we'll be hunting them down (stronger then ever) & giving them a choice of being pulled into special locations where they go into testing to earn their citizenship or be deported. If they willingly signup & showup for this testing on their own, they get to a much earlier place in line, while those that have to be hunted, remain at the end & remain at those locations longer. The broadcast is a warning for them to start cramming for the exam of their life. If they pass then kudos to you I say cause it would be hard, otherwise buh-bye!
2) I dislike seeing those in our country that don't know the language after living here for years illegally or not. As posted earlier I believe, if you are going to settle down in another country, learn the lingo. Maybe only a fundamental idea, but if I were to move to Japan, this is what I'd be doing...you don't wanna feel like people are talking shit behind your back cause they figure you don't know the lingo, plus it's ever so fun when they think you don't but you do & then you can comment...the look on their face(s) is priceless.
3) America adjusts! Heck! Gas prices change all the time...bearly anything in this country is SOLID. If we lose cheap labor, we'll adjust, we always do.

 

[Bigboy]

Whats the point of becoming a legal immigrant if there is no penalty for being an illegal one?