morrigan's robe on quetz.

[pchan]

So how does a rdm do this much more effictively if you still have to agro the stones still?

Either use a thf and a rdm that 'll throw 3 nukes (or a BLM)

Or use only a rdm with Chaisnpell

in either case someone dies.

 

[Uzor]

In over a year that I've lead Dynamis, we've only used chainspell raise once That's less then 1% of the time.. All other times, normal Raise, Raise 2 and 3 were enough. So if save your Chainspell for when you need it to Raise someone (unless you're goign for a boss run, understandable then), you're doing something wrong. And if you actually count on ALL of your RDMes Chainspell raise, I'm at loss of words.

 

[Dowzer]

If you read his post, you'll see that he mentioned THF suicide pulling it and then nuking it.

Or you could chainspell and kill it in 10 sec tops.

Thanks for clearing up the resist of certain stones, I don't know too much about which are physical or even HP/MP eye colour difference.

So lemme get this straight. A THF has to suicide pull for BLM to nuke that extension? Which means RDM also has to have a suicide pull...? Since casting distance will aggro the eyes, that is why a RNG is better?

Alright, that would explain why Chainspell would be used; because those eyes pop quite a lot of mobs and utterly rape the BLM or RDM, possibly before killing the extension. Hence the number of monsters, I can see why Chainspell would be used - to kill in a short period to save overall run-time and kill before the mobs return. This is where I am beginning to be confused.

If there is a suicide puller, why waste Chainspell if the mobs are already preoccupied? It would be much more efficient to use melee or BLM in that case, because I believe they could kill it just as fast and if not faster than a RDM's Chainspell. (A melee's WS can easily one shot the extension)

Of course Chainspell Raise is only used for rare situations. I don't believe I ever specified the number of deaths to even warrant using it. I simply said a Mijin Gakure without Barfira. Considering how rare it is for a WHM to forget Barfira - don't you think it would be very rare for the majority of WHM to forget? I believe there is an extension in Sandy which is blocked by NIN and Orc NMs but I'm not certain. Please stop assuming.

 

[Uzor]

When a RDM chainspell nuke, you don't use a suicide puller. The RDM himself is the suicide puller, since the mobs will hunt him down. However, the stone will be dead before the mobs reach him.

I never assumed anything. You said it'd be more usefull to save it for a chainspell raise. But considering the number of times chainspell raise is actually usefull, and there's not many other situations in Dynamis where you have to use chainspell (unless its against, say, Dynamis Lord), I don't see why you'd count on your RDMes to use Chainspell for Raise, since you shouldn't go in expecting to wipe anyway.

 

[Dowzer]

Alrighty that clears things up, thanks man. And yeah, it'd have to be very rare to have such a large wipe in Xarc to warrant CS Raise.

 

[Bajaratt]

When a RDM chainspell nuke, you don't use a suicide puller. The RDM himself is the suicide puller, since the mobs will hunt him down. However, the stone will be dead before the mobs reach him.

I never assumed anything. You said it'd be more usefull to save it for a chainspell raise. But considering the number of times chainspell raise is actually usefull, and there's not many other situations in Dynamis where you have to use chainspell (unless its against, say, Dynamis Lord), I don't see why you'd count on your RDMes to use Chainspell for Raise, since you shouldn't go in expecting to wipe anyway.

No one said "save your chainspell for raising," they said it was a possible use of chainspell. Using it just because you have it up is just wasteful, that's like me just throwing down benediction every 2 hours rather than bother to cure my party.

If you're doing a sacrifice pull, why not just have a thf or someone else pull it already and nuke down the stone? Your strategy sounds like you made it a long time ago and never bothered to look to an alternative.

 

[Uzor]

No one said "save your chainspell for raising," they said it was a possible use of chainspell. Using it just because you have it up is just wasteful, that's like me just throwing down benediction every 2 hours rather than bother to cure my party.

If you're doing a sacrifice pull, why not just have a thf or someone else pull it already and nuke down the stone? Your strategy sounds like you made it a long time ago and never bothered to look to an alternative.

No, I made it because its easy and succesfull and never fails.

And its not "just using it because its up". Its using it for something usefull. Seriously, how often do you use your 2-hours unless you're going agaisnt a boss? So why not use it at the begining if you never use it anyway?

It sounds like you're arguing because you assuem you'll always need 2-hours during a run, which is soemwhat contradicting to your statment about "using it just because its up".

 

[Skaw]

It sounds like you're arguing because you assuem you'll always need 2-hours during a run, which is soemwhat contradicting to your statment about "using it just because its up".

Wow.. what? How is it contradictory to say "Use it when/if you need it," while being against "Use it just because it's there?"

Moron. Do you even know what contradict means? Because thats no where near being contradicting.

 

[Uzor]

He said using chainspell just because its up is a waste of a 2-hour. I agree on that. He's also said earlier that chainspell raise is a much better use.

However, you rarely use 2-hours at all in Dynamis unless you're going for a boss, so saying using chainspell to nuke in the begining is like using is "just because its up", when you rarely use 2-hours at all, is at best a very weak argument. Sounds like you just half-assed it in a lame attempt to actually make a point.

And I really do like your simpel, predictive straight-forward insult. It fits someone of your intelligence.

 

[Skaw]

He said using chainspell just because its up is a waste of a 2-hour. I agree on that. He's also said earlier that chainspell raise is a much better use.

However, you rarely use 2-hours at all in Dynamis unless you're going for a boss, so saying using chainspell to nuke in the begining is like using is "just because its up", when you rarely use 2-hours at all, is at best a very weak argument. Sounds like you just half-assed it in a lame attempt to actually make a point.

You're missing the point. By a long shot. You yourself have even mentioned that there are several different ways in dealing with the extension, all with the same end result(one person biting it, but the stone dies.) All but one relying on a two hour ability. So yes. Using chainspell is just using it because it's available. Chainspell raise isn't using chainspell just because it's available either. You're obviously in a situation where theres several people KO'd, and raising one by one with the recasts is a strain on time. Much more of a strain than doing 3 seperate, same-timed nukes as opposed to chainspelling 3 nukes.

It's not a matter about rarely using two hours, but keeping them for that off-chance the rare occasion actually happens.

 

[Bajaratt]

No, I made it because its easy and succesfull and never fails.

And its not "just using it because its up". Its using it for something usefull. Seriously, how often do you use your 2-hours unless you're going agaisnt a boss? So why not use it at the begining if you never use it anyway?

It sounds like you're arguing because you assuem you'll always need 2-hours during a run, which is soemwhat contradicting to your statment about "using it just because its up".

My benediction is "useful" too, I'm still curing the party; but that doesn't make it the best use of my 2 hour. Your method is wasteful, it gets the job done, but it's not efficient.

 

[Uzor]

You're missing the point. By a long shot. You yourself have even mentioned that there are several different ways in dealing with the extension, all with the same end result(one person biting it, but the stone dies.) All but one relying on a two hour ability. So yes. Using chainspell is just using it because it's available.

It's not a matter about rarely using two hours, but keeping them for that off-chance the rare occasion actually happens.

In which off-chance you'll still have 3 chainspell raises, along with countless other 2-hours. I can assure ou that 4 RDMes using Chainspell Raise on 24 people is beyond retarded. So no, I don't miss the point by a logn shot.

The more people involved, the greater the chance is someone will screw up. If one people is involved, there's only 1 chance each time. If 2 peopel are involved, that doubles the chance someone will screw up, since there's 2 people that can possibly screw up. When you only have 1 RDM go in to chainspell nuke it, he can do that without any way of endangerign anyone else, while the others are entering. Thus neither wasting time, nor putting anyone else in danger. The way I see it, its a win-win situation.

 

[Uzor]

My benediction is "useful" too, I'm still curing the party; but that doesn't make it the best use of my 2 hour. Your method is wasteful, it gets the job done, but it's not efficient.

That's a huge difference, because using benediction just because it "heals" people isn't even closely the same the same situation.

Seriously, you're getting out of shape Bajaratt.

 

[Bajaratt]

That's a huge difference, because using benediction just because it "heals" people isn't even closely the same the same situation.

Seriously, you're getting out of shape Bajaratt.

It's exactly the same thing, you use rdm's 2hr to kill a single monster that is easily dealt with in other ways that do not require a 2hr to be used; my using benediction instead of a another option is the same logic you're using. We're both using 2 hours in situations that could easily be dealt with using other means. I'm not the one who's "out of shape" if you're too blind to see that.

 

[Dowzer]

Nevermind, I'm still quite hung over from this weekend and I'm at work at the moment. Looking back on my past pull of that extension, (and the only one I've made) Gladdy was showing me where to stand to make the kill without aggro. He walked too close and aggro'd the eyes, I quickly hit my RA macro and one shot the extension with Barrage. We both died, but there was time between aggroing the eyes and the spawned mobs chasing after.

Considering the time it took for the mobs spawned by the eyes to attack and kill him - then me afterwards, I'm now fully confident about one BLM being able to nuke the stone down. Even if it takes 2 IV spells. Two BLM could easily kill that extension without dying before the stone does.

 

[Uzor]

It's exactly the same thing, you use rdm's 2hr to kill a single monster that is easily dealt with in other ways that do not require a 2hr to be used; my using benediction instead of a another option is the same logic you're using. We're both using 2 hours in situations that could easily be dealt with using other means. I'm not the one who's "out of shape" if you're too blind to see that.

That's far from the same logic. You're just being silly now.

And you're STILL ignoring the fact that you never even USE your 2-hours. Or are you just popping them for the fun of it? Or maybe your shell actually suck so bad that you HAVE to use it?

I'm not sure which one of them apply to you, but you keep saying you can use them for better things. I've asked several times what htose better things might be, and the only answer I've got is "Chainspell Raise", which is quite sad if your LS actually have to do that with 4 RDMes.

Your whole argument is based on that you'll actually use your 2-hours during a run. If you're not, why save it for a potential situation that happends 1% of the time?

That's like saying you shouldn't use the last gas in your car to drive to the shop to buy more gasoline, since you might need the car in case someone breaks in to your house and tries to murder you. And yes, I only brought that up since you keep mentioning benediction.

Edit: You could also replace someone breaking in to your house with a random emergency. The same still applies.

 

[Bajaratt]

That's far from the same logic. You're just being silly now.

And you're STILL ignoring the fact that you never even USE your 2-hours. Or are you just popping them for the fun of it? Or maybe your shell actually suck so bad that you HAVE to use it?

I'm not sure which one of them apply to you, but you keep saying you can use them for better things. I've asked several times what htose better things might be, and the only answer I've got is "Chainspell Raise", which is quite sad if your LS actually have to do that with 4 RDMes.

Your whole argument is based on that you'll actually use your 2-hours during a run. If you're not, why save it for a potential situation that happends 1% of the time?

That's like saying you shouldn't use the last gas in your car to drive to the shop to buy more gasoline, since you might need the car in case someone breaks in to your house and tries to murder you. And yes, I only brought that up since you keep mentioning benediction.

Your logic: I don't need chainspell for anything else this run, so I'll just use it to get an extension.

My adaptation of your logic: I don't need benediction for anything else this run, so I'll just use it instead of casting curaga.

That's the exact same situation, you have it available, but you use it just because you don't plan on needing it later on. Your logic is just "I don't need X later on, so I'll use it now for Y mundane purpose." I just changed the name/purpose. How blind are you to not recognize your own argument?

I never said chainspell raise is it's only use, you could use a 2hr to throw out instant cures to keep a lot of people alive after a Mijin/Astral Flow; or to help nuke a group of monsters. Just something that couldn't be easily accomplished without using a 2 hour ability.

Your gas example is flawed, in that you're going to be using the gas either way; but you're going to be getting new gas with that usage. That example is akin to blowing your 2 hour so you can get a revitalizer more than anything relevant in this thread.

The whole point is how inefficient it is to use a 2 hour ability when you can do the exact same thing in multiple ways without the 2 hour. You've yet to actually show how using a 2 hour is in any way nearly as efficient as any of the other methods aside from barrage, since you don't have a ranger.

 

[Uzor]

Your logic: I don't need chainspell for anything else this run, so I'll just use it to get an extension.

My adaptation of your logic: I don't need benediction for anything else this run, so I'll just use it instead of casting curaga.

That's the exact same situation, you have it available, but you use it just because you don't plan on needing it later on. Your logic is just "I don't need X later on, so I'll use it now for Y mundane purpose." I just changed the name/purpose. How blind are you to not recognize your own argument?

I never said chainspell raise is it's only use, you could use a 2hr to throw out instant cures to keep a lot of people alive after a Mijin/Astral Flow; or to help nuke a group of monsters. Just something that couldn't be easily accomplished without using a 2 hour ability.

Your gas example is flawed, in that you're going to be using the gas either way; but you're going to be getting new gas with that usage. That example is akin to blowing your 2 hour so you can get a revitalizer more than anything relevant in this thread.

If you want to use benediction, yes. you can use it. however, you're not using it to do any good. We use 1 chainspell out of the 4 we have available to kill the extention in the most easy efficient way. It also saves time, which would do more god then popping Benediction for the hell of it.

And using it to cure al ot of people is also a use-it-because-its-available situation. Because after Mijin Gakure, the mob is almost dead, and and won't use any other AoE's. so the same could be acomplished with Curagas and normal cures. So that would also be a "use it just because its available" situation.

Also, to help nuke a group of mosnters would be the very same argument you shot Pchan down for earlier. Its also the very thing you're preaching against on the extention.

And no, its not flawed. Driving to buy gas woudl be the easy way out, since there are numerous other options. You can get the extention by suicide pulling it and then nuking it. However, chainspell nuking it is the easy way out.

And I already showed why its just as efficient, but you ignore those. Feel free to go back and look through the thread if you're that hellbent on proving me wrong.

 

[pchan]

No one said "save your chainspell for raising," they said it was a possible use of chainspell. Using it just because you have it up is just wasteful, that's like me just throwing down benediction every 2 hours rather than bother to cure my party.

If you're doing a sacrifice pull, why not just have a thf or someone else pull it already and nuke down the stone? Your strategy sounds like you made it a long time ago and never bothered to look to an alternative.

You need to define what exactly is "wasting" a 2H. Since you estimate it is a waste give me a better way to use it.

 

[Dowzer]

You need to define what exactly is "wasting" a 2H. Since you estimate it is a waste give me a better way to use it.

Since there is already a sacrifice being made, (read: RDM Chainspell nuke the stone and then die) it could easily be done by a THF&BLM combo instead. Only the THF would die, while the BLM nukes the extension.