PLD Pro's and Con's, negating weaknesses and how to improve further your strengths

[Caerloc]

Physical damage % down is a lot different than a pure def+ vit+ build. Fygla doesn't have an Aegis, but he does have a d.ring + Hauteclaire.

And valhalla helm, but he still used alot of defensive gear. M.body, M.legs, M.Hands (i think), i only saw the visible parts, i didnt think of checking him. I would assume he used shadow mantle aswell. And he probably used jellyring to, fygla is quick enough to macro that out when a ws or spell is hitting. My point was really that you dont need an aegis not to sub nin on bigger things. However, unblocked mighty strike hits hit him in the 2-300 range, thats not all thanks to 27% physical dmg down.

 

[jamal]

And valhalla helm, but he still used alot of defensive gear. M.body, M.legs, M.Hands (i think), i only saw the visible parts, i didnt think of checking him. I would assume he used shadow mantle aswell. And he probably used jellyring to, fygla is quick enough to macro that out when a ws or spell is hitting. My point was really that you dont need an aegis not to sub nin on bigger things. However, unblocked mighty strike hits hit him in the 2-300 range, thats not all thanks to 27% physical dmg down.

Without an aegis, you do need quite a bit of substantial gear though. Without the physical dmg down gear, the set wouldn't work. If I went out there wearing Ass. BP (Close to Koenig without the VIT+), Koenig Helm, Hands, Legs, AF+1 Feet...how much damage would I be taking?

While you're right, it can be done without aegis, Fygla's never really a good example of being able to do something for the general public, he's a beastly geared player. Without an Aegis, you do need everything else.

 

[Caerloc]

Ofcourse not anyone can do it, but i dont think you need all of Fyglas gear to be able to do it, but the more the better ofcourse. However, a good deal of the gear is sorta open to the general public. Valhalla gear for example, the entire koenig set, shadow mantle and ring, the hard to get items are D.ring and Hauteclaire, there are still only 1 place to get those. But you can get 15% physical dmg down, with a good def/vit build on top.

Hard work to get? Sure, but spamming einherjar and dynamis will get you there eventually. In any occassion, physical dmg down sets works way better with a good vit/def build behind it. And subbing rdm, you dont need much enmity gear since you have a endless supply of cheap hate tools.

 

[Nicholette]

Deltoid has an Aegis though, doesn't he? I'd imagine the increased block rate + massive damage reduction from blocked actually helped more than his DEF/VIT.



And lolDEF/VIT (for HNM/high level mobs), until they fix it. Otherwise for other weird stuff like super tanking in DM or CoP Airship it'll hold some merit.

He does, but you can see the animaton of a blocked hit, even the nonblocked werent doing that much, not that haut and dring arent significant in that but I'm betting him fulltiming max def/vit gear wasnt for show.

I use haste for flash, and flash every 22 seconds.

I'm max haste except speed belt so I think I'm going to go for this and see how it changes my hate, thanks a bundle Caer.

Fygla tanked out last Tiamat /rdm, and he hits a great deal harder then Khima, specially during mighty strikes. I couldnt even pull hate off him with invincible. Fygla doesnt have a Aegis, and no, we didnt pussysleep him, even once.

I wish i would have been able to watch this, I understand the hate being unstoppable as we tank JoL PLD/RDM, but the 200-300dmg unblocked isnt much at all to take though with how slow Tia attacks.

 

[Caerloc]

He does, but you can see the animaton of a blocked hit, even the nonblocked werent doing that much, not that haut and dring arent significant in that but I'm betting him fulltiming max def/vit gear wasnt for show.



I'm max haste except speed belt so I think I'm going to go for this and see how it changes my hate, thanks a bundle Caer.



I wish i would have been able to watch this, I understand the hate being unstoppable as we tank JoL PLD/RDM, but the 200-300dmg unblocked isnt much at all to take though with how slow Tia attacks.

I have a feeling Fygla isnt gonna go back to PLD/NIN now, so that probably wasnt the last time lol.

 

[Redshift]

I laughed really hard, /RDM on Tiamat? Couldn't get hate with Invincible? rooffflll invincible is VE hate only, which doesn't decay when you get smacked, I'd can only pray the tanks have VE capped after a minute or two.

 

[Caerloc]

I laughed really hard, /RDM on Tiamat? Couldn't get hate with Invincible? rooffflll invincible is VE hate only, which doesn't decay when you get smacked, I'd can only pray the tanks have VE capped after a minute or two.

Im not sure why you are laughing. I wasnt the one with the rdm sub. I wasnt getting smacked at all. My CE was capped since a long while before i invincible'd. All i had to work with was VE, and even with a spike like that, AND capped CE i still didnt pull hate of Fygla's PLD/RDM. The only thing i can see to laugh at is the fact that if you cant even see PLD/RDM as feasible, then you and your peeps must be gimp as shit. Who are you anyways?

 

[Redshift]

If you sub anything but NIN on Tiamat you shouldn't be tanking it rofl. Especially with Mighty Strikes and double attacks, subbing RDM or lolWAR is like some bad 80s movie timewarp with messed up fashion sense and everyone is rapping hippity hop rofl.

It's pretty obvious that /RDM gives you more hate tools than /NIN but it's even more obvious PLD is fine with it's own hate tools and that you absolutely must negate the damage some way, like shadows. The only places that come to mind for subbing RDM is JoL, Ouryu and some kited fights.

You do realize how incredibly easy it is to cap VE as PLD? Sentinel -> Shield Bash -> Flash -> Cure4 and you're essentially there. What you didn't have cap is CE, because PLDs only CE is cures and flash.

Again, why in the world would you force upon a more difficult sub as a tank with no real benefits over NIN, that only MP sinks the entire fight for what? Slightly better hate in the first 5min? If the PLD/NIN couldn't get hate back, then he probably just sat there with full MP and only used flash without an HP macro or didn't bother to cure the lol/RDM getting mauled. Which was most likely the case if you couldn't cap CE.

 

[Caerloc]

If you sub anything but NIN on Tiamat you shouldn't be tanking it rofl. Especially with Mighty Strikes and double attacks, subbing RDM or lolWAR is like some bad 80s movie timewarp with messed up fashion sense and everyone is rapping hippity hop rofl.

It's pretty obvious that /RDM gives you more hate tools than /NIN but it's even more obvious PLD is fine with it's own hate tools and that you absolutely must negate the damage some way, like shadows. The only places that come to mind for subbing RDM is JoL, Ouryu and some kited fights.

You do realize how incredibly easy it is to cap VE as PLD? Sentinel -> Shield Bash -> Flash -> Cure4 and you're essentially there. What you didn't have cap is CE, because PLDs only CE is cures and flash.

Again, why in the world would you force upon a more difficult sub as a tank with no real benefits over NIN, that only MP sinks the entire fight for what? Slightly better hate in the first 5min? If the PLD/NIN couldn't get hate back, then he probably just sat there with full MP and only used flash without an HP macro or didn't bother to cure the lol/RDM getting mauled. Which was most likely the case if you couldn't cap CE.

I dont know how much you've fought Tiamat, but he's not news to us. We prefer not to spend more then 15-20 minutes tops on that fight. Hence we used PLD/RDM. As far as healing the socalled "PLD/RDM getting mauled", like i said, there wasnt much to cure. I understand your PLD's has far less gear then ours, but it shouldnt be to hard to understand that ppl with better gear takes less dmg. Blocked normal attacks hit for 0, blocked crit attacks for 50-ish. Normal attacks for about 100, and unblocked mighty strikes attacks for like 300. Where is the PLD getting mauled? even a double attack mighty strikes unblocked is only 600 dmg, wich isnt even close to being dangerous.

As for my own cures, this is what i was forced to use, since there was nothing to cure on Fygla.

input /equip ring1 "Bomb Queen Ring";
input /equip back "Gigant Mantle";
input /equip waist "Ocean Sash";
wait 5;
input /equip ring1 "Hercules' Ring";
input /equip back "Cerberus Mantle";
input /equip waist "Trance Belt";

And i spammed it nonstop between flashes, with a relic brd, refresh and parade gorget.
So like i said, if you cant even see how its feasible, you and your peeps must be gimp as shit.

 

[Caerloc]

Maybe you wanna hack on using a DRK/NIN as tank to, cause you dont understand how to do it?

 

[Redshift]

Can you please stop this lolsy "gimp as shit plds"? It's really getting annoying considering you don't know what you're talking about. The LS I was with, which killed Tiamat 95% of the time for over 2 years and still does, has many aegis plds with plenty of experience.

I think you (among many others) have some kind of delusion on how effective, or rather ineffective, DEF/VIT gear is on HNM (ie, Tiamat crits are closer to... twice what you said rofl). You obviously understand that he was taking damage, an amount you understate to prove to your lack of an argument, so how is there nothing to cure?

From the Tiamats I've seen on this server, I lol'ed pretty hard watching.

EDIT: Aegis/Hauty in Valha body and Jelly Ring when shields were temporarily buffed and with Reprisal. So the blocked damage is higher and blocked more often than normal, but... where are these mythic 300 damage crits? I only see 600+

 

[Caerloc]

Can you please stop this lolsy "gimp as shit plds"? It's really getting annoying considering you don't know what you're talking about. The LS I was with, which killed Tiamat 95% of the time for over 2 years and still does, has many aegis plds with plenty of experience.

Is that all you got? We have several aegis PLD's, however, we always choose not to use them, cause we can be more effective then that. One of our aegis PLD's opts to tank as drk/nin with apocalypse, wich is part of what allows us to cut killtime down to 20-ish minutes. And fyi Aegis =/= experience.

I think you (among many others) have some kind of delusion on how effective, or rather ineffective, DEF/VIT gear is on HNM (ie, Tiamat crits are closer to... twice what you said rofl). You obviously understand that he was taking damage, an amount you understate to prove to your lack of an argument, so how is there nothing to cure?

In YOUR experince they are im sure. There was nothing for me to cure because Fygla would cure himself, and so would the whm, leaving it far more effective for me to get my guarenteed 180 hp cured everytime.

From the Tiamats I've seen on this server, I lol'ed pretty hard watching.

I'm gonna disregard that, cause its so easy to talk the talk when you dont have to walk the walk.

EDIT: Aegis/Hauty in Valha body and Jelly Ring when shields were temporarily buffed and with Reprisal. So the blocked damage is higher and blocked more often than normal, but... where are these mythic 300 damage crits? I only see 600+

Disregarding the fact that this person was subbing nin and was caught with his shadows down, and isnt gearswapping its safe to say he's gonna take more dmg then someone in a vit/def/dmg%down/shield build. His phalanx also just wore. Also even if he does own a Jellyring and vallhalla body he would be pretty dumb to wear them in his /nin idle set. So the point your trying to make is pretty much failing on your own words.

But really, to me it seems you dont have any experience at all. To me it seems your just regurgitating stuff you read, without having a clue on how to apply it in practice. Noone here needs to doubt me and my shells experience with Tiamat, its common knowledge we been doing him since he first started to get killed. However, what LS are you in, and when can we come watch you kill?

 

[Redshift]

I have to wonder, where does apoc come into play with PLD? "fyi aegis =/= experience" do I have to underline something for you? "aegis plds with plenty of experience"

How is it "talk the talk" if Tiamat is up for 3hrs+ killed by old age.

You're assuming the stupidest things about this PLD, A) He was straight tanking the last 1% for lolz because of the recent shield buff. B) What do you use that decreases damage taken that much? C) Do you know what phalanx 2 does? It caps at 29 DMG, not a significant impact on 600+

 

[Tomasello]

As for my own cures, this is what i was forced to use, since there was nothing to cure on Fygla.

input /equip ring1 "Bomb Queen Ring";
input /equip back "Gigant Mantle";
input /equip waist "Ocean Sash";
wait 5;
input /equip ring1 "Hercules' Ring";
input /equip back "Cerberus Mantle";
input /equip waist "Trance Belt";

Speaking of this, I just finished up my Cure IV macro for my PLD/NIN and I just wanted to share. There are several gear combinations you can use. I just needed a set that would get me to around 380 hp swapped because thats about what my Paladin cures for give or take 1-2 hp.

The set is a combination of Einherjar Ampoules bought gear and AH bought gear. If you don't have Windower you can do it using just 2 macro spots, one to remove the hp and the second to add and atm it looks like this.


380 HP removed set this drops my hp to around 1230ish:

Macro #1
Serket Ring
Morgana's Choker
Ether Ring
Settler's Cape
Whatever Earring (I picked Loquicious)


380 HP added and Cure IV brings it back up to 1610ish:

Macro #2
/ma Cure IV <me>
BQ Ring
Ritter Gorget
Hercules Ring
Gigant Mantle
Cassie Earring

With Windower, it's even easier because you can make it all one macro.

But even if you use these two macros, it pops a quick Cure IV blast on yourself with no loss of mp other then the actual Cure IV, won't make you gear blink, and most importantly takes full advantage of the potency of a Cure IV with all your enmity gear on. I can spam four of these on myself at full hp/mp if needed to pull some juicy hate on myself.

You obviously can mix and match the pieces to achieve this affect but as you can see it doesn't take very much gear to do it and you don't need very annoying to get items like a Bloodbead ring to pull it off.

 

[Caerloc]

I have to wonder, where does apoc come into play with PLD? "fyi aegis =/= experience" do I have to underline something for you? "aegis plds with plenty of experience"

It only comes into play cause its a more effective tool to tank Tiamat then Aegis. Unless you are to afraid of Tiamat to use it. Im not gonna diss some PLD i dont know. But for reasons made painfully apparent, im hardly gonna take your words for them.

How is it "talk the talk" if Tiamat is up for 3hrs+ killed by old age.

Why didnt you kill it then? We dont hardcorecamp tiamat anymore cause we need 2 more boots to cap out again, and there are way better ways to make money, since the boots take like a month to sell.

You're assuming the stupidest things about this PLD, A) He was straight tanking the last 1% for lolz because of the recent shield buff. B) What do you use that decreases damage taken that much? C) Do you know what phalanx 2 does? It caps at 29 DMG, not a significant impact on 600+

His shadows just wore, looks like he was caught off guard to me. Or that he didnt care for the last 1%, either way, looks like he is standing in his /nin idle gear.

D.ring, Jelly ring, hauteclaire, valhalla gear, koenig/kaiser. Im sure i dont have to regurgitate dmg calculations to you, but if you lower the P.dif on a crit from 3.0 to 2.9 you will see a dmg decrease. Pair it with a lower "Base dmg" thanks to vitality the dmg will be less. (Not saying he doesnt manage to lower P.dif more then that, but even that little will have an effext) Add the 30%-ish cut, add Phalanx. Voila, after effect uppon effect uppon effect.

Now let me ask you something. Does your PLD's take as much dmg as a BLM while not wearing any dmg % cuts?

 

[Caerloc]

Speaking of this, I just finished up my Cure IV macro for my PLD/NIN and I just wanted to share. There are several gear combinations you can use. I just needed a set that would get me to around 380 hp swapped because thats about what my Paladin cures for give or take 1-2 hp.

The set is a combination of Einherjar Ampoules bought gear and AH bought gear. If you don't have Windower you can do it using just 2 macro spots, one to remove the hp and the second to add and atm it looks like this.


380 HP removed set this drops my hp to around 1230ish:

Macro #1
Serket Ring
Morgana's Choker
Ether Ring
Settler's Cape
Whatever Earring (I picked Loquicious)


380 HP added and Cure IV brings it back up to 1610ish:

Macro #2
/ma Cure IV <me>
BQ Ring
Ritter Gorget
Hercules Ring
Gigant Mantle
Cassie Earring

With Windower, it's even easier because you can make it all one macro.

But even if you use these two macros, it pops a quick Cure IV blast on yourself with no loss of mp other then the actual Cure IV, won't make you gear blink, and most importantly takes full advantage of the potency of a Cure IV with all your enmity gear on. I can spam four of these on myself at full hp/mp if needed to pull some juicy hate on myself.

You obviously can mix and match the pieces to achieve this affect but as you can see it doesn't take very much gear to do it and you don't need very annoying to get items like a Bloodbead ring to pull it off.

Not a bad macro. I just prefer to simply add HP gearto cure in and then remove, then to actually lower my hp. It's not a big deal, i just consider it safer.

 

[Tomasello]

Not a bad macro. I just prefer to simply add HP gearto cure in and then remove, then to actually lower my hp. It's not a big deal, i just consider it safer.

I mean there's always the slim chance that you get hit for over 1200 dmg when in the middle of using the macro but the window between 380 hp swaps is literally a few seconds because you start curing AFTER you re-equip the hp so unless your really really unlucky it's actually a pretty safe bet your not gonna die from a one shot.

 

[Caerloc]

I mean there's always the slim chance that you get hit for over 1200 dmg when in the middle of using the macro but the window between 380 hp swaps is literally a few seconds because you start curing AFTER you re-equip the hp so unless your really really unlucky it's actually a pretty safe bet your not gonna die from a one shot.

Like i said, its not a big deal, i just prefer to add hp to cure, then the other way around. There are things that can do 1200-ish dmg to a pld in /nin gear caught of guard, but thats not very many things.

 

[Tomasello]

Like i said, its not a big deal, i just prefer to add hp to cure, then the other way around. There are things that can do 1200-ish dmg to a pld in /nin gear caught of guard, but thats not very many things.

No worries.... I know you know your stuff. ^^

 

[Redshift]

For reasons painfully obvious, you have no realistic concept of game mechanics. The game mechanics are completely against the players in dealing and taking damage.

Do you know why HNM hit you for so hard that VIT really means nothing? VIT is taking account in fSTR, since you act as if you know what that means, you know should know that fSTR plays the absolute least part of the damage equation. Reducing fSTR to nothing would accomplish very little in how much damage you take. An easy example of this would be how you need roughly 110 or 120 VIT (I can't remember exactly) to see diminishing results on sky gods, but they still hit you for a lot anyway. Also, a monsters fSTR cap is incredibly high (you can just assume it never caps, very similar to blue magic fSTR), where for players melee fSTR caps at wRank + 8.

All monsters, not just HNM (which you can imagine is much more) have absurdly high base damage "weapons."

Since you like to throw out the word pDIF as if you actually know what it is. It's a function of cRatio between ATK and DEF. When you attack a monster of higher level, there's a correction value to make it harder for you to cap ATK and no correction if you are equal or greater in level than the monster. When a monster of higher level attacks you, they get a pDIF bonus in their attacks, making it a lot harder for your DEF to mean anything to them.

If you have capped ATK (2.0 +/- 0.4 pDIF), there is still a range for critical hit damage (2.6 to 3.0 pDIF). If pDIF is 1.6 +/- 0.4, it will can still cap critical hit damage. I have no idea what you're trying to tell me when you say crit pDIF lowers from 3.0 to 2.9 after adding some DEF, ok? That's still very high pDIF, it's not even close to 300 damage. Monsters follow different caps, their pDIF caps at 4.0 for melee attacks and critical hits. A player can reach and attack for 0s many times because their ATK is overcome by monsters DEF meaning pDIF=0, but for the most part there is always a minimum pDIF on monsters attacks.

So, combined with incredibly high weapon damage rating, uncapped fSTR, 4.0 pDIF cap for melee hits/crits and pDIF bonus for being greater level than you, I call bullshit on 300 damage crits poidh.