ProTip: /nin sucks for most jobs

[Caerloc]

I think Alanon is missinterperating me though. Obviously i understand how survivability allows you to do more dmg in the long run, i havent touched /war on my mnk since it hit 74 a very long time ago, and /nin doesnt even offer me a delay-cut. Im arguing /war's raw dmg potential against /nin.

 

[Tagrineth]

/nin
For one.. i'm not gonna wait to use sharpshot just to pull off a slugshot... Barrage is nice.. but to get the most out of that.. you still have to use sharpshot. Beater's armor is nice but /nin saves you a slot when you dual wield Trailer's Kukri... and if you wanna get a Phantom Fleuret you can equip as sub/main weapon. If Corsair had an A in marksmanship (which they don't) i'd go /rng more. But to get my money's worth from my bullets, i'd rather load up a bit on racc just to be safe is all. The way i play /nin i'm always moving around (except when fighting imps). I keep a 4 roll rotation throughout the party and i love to melee... Corsair does have decent dagger skill so dual wielding won't hurt ya. I use suppanomimi and a drone earring on my cor.. and if you want that 1 agi.. get a genin earring.. since AGI does have a factor on slugshot ^^ As A corsair i hate pulling because it can mess up your 4 roll rotation. If anyone has played corsair with 4 roll rotation.. you know exactly what i mean.

/rng
I'd say at early lvls this is the best choice for Corsair. With sharpshot and Melee Accuracy bonuses. At low lvls your roll rotation probably won't be more than 3 because you don't get refresh roll (evoker's) til 40. Barrage is nice to have and like rappa said beater's earrings and gun belt at their corresponding levels. Nothing wrong with Cor/Rng. I just don't like waiting for Sharpshot recast time for me to pull out the big moves is all. I think cor/rng is for ppl who make their own bullets or have lots of money to spend on ammo. You'd be surprised how fast you can go thru a stack of bullets with your 500~ delay gun =P

/NIN won't help your ranged accuracy after level 60.

/RNG gives an Accuracy Bonus job trait. Accuracy Bonus I alone is +10, Accuracy Bonus II gives +21. No offhand weapon can match that, and that's before Sharpshot.

Also, at very high levels, I'd be surprised if a COR ever really pulled hate much, due to the absence of Silver Bullets hampering their DPS and lowering their base damage for slug shot significantly.

 

[alanon]

No, that was my response to your question about if i read his posts concerning how /nin did more overall dmg then /war. Namely this.



Survivability wasnt even mentioned here.

Well here, let me piece the puzzle together for you brainiac:

starting with Uzor:

Reason most believe BLU/NIN sucks is because mots BLU's suck. That's a fact. Our main source of damage is from spells. As BLU/NIN, I could easily pull out over 1,200+ damage per fight from only 1 spell and a a Vorpal Blade, and I almost always get over 100% TP every fight. Added to this is around 50-60 damage per sword, and remember that with Dual Wield you'll attack faster, but still get the same TP. Doing 1200+ per fight will most likely pull hate.

Nothing in this is convincing me of anything. Any benefit from dual wield is lost by the loss of double attack, berserk, and warcry. If your argument is "lol I do too much dmg and pull hate too fast", then you aren't a very good dd and I wouldn't invite you to my pt anyway. A good dd does enough dmg to kill quickly without pulling hate like a jackass. If you start the fight with 1200 dmg, you deserve to die. I've always said that /THF is situational, but nothing will convince me that /NIN beats /WAR for blu.

then me:

Forget the Dual-Wield argument, survivability is enough. You can't list Warcry/Beserk/DA/etc as reasons to sub War, then tell him he's a crappy DD because he does too much Dmg as /Nin....

then Rappa:

Er, yes I can. If he plans to Berserk->Warcry->WS at the start of the fight then he fails at blu/war as much as he fails at blu/nin. Just having the abilities isn't as important as knowing how and when to use them. DDing really isn't complicated, guys.

me:

Ok, so he subs Nin, does more overall damage than /war and never gets a scratch. Explain again how /war is better?

Rappa:

Where is the "does more overall damage than /war" part coming from?

me:

Have you not been reading Uzor's posts?


Then you apparently comming out of left field still harping on the damn dual-wield crap.

 

[Caerloc]

Well here, let me piece the puzzle together for you brainiac:

starting with Uzor:

Nothing in this is convincing me of anything. Any benefit from dual wield is lost by the loss of double attack, berserk, and warcry. If your argument is "lol I do too much dmg and pull hate too fast", then you aren't a very good dd and I wouldn't invite you to my pt anyway. A good dd does enough dmg to kill quickly without pulling hate like a jackass. If you start the fight with 1200 dmg, you deserve to die. I've always said that /THF is situational, but nothing will convince me that /NIN beats /WAR for blu.

then me:



then Rappa:



me:

Ok, so he subs Nin, does more overall damage than /war and never gets a scratch. Explain again how /war is better?

Rappa:

Where is the "does more overall damage than /war" part coming from?

me:

Have you not been reading Uzor's posts?


Then you apparently comming out of left field still harping on the damn dual-wield crap.

Then shouldnt you be asking if we have read your posts? All i see Uzor argue for is how /nin boosts his melee dmg, and im arguing against it.

 

[Khali]

/rng accuracy bonus is physical acc.. says in game that it enhances accuracy to phsyical attacks which i consider straight up melee... so it has nothing to do with ranged. Unless SE is hiding something about that job trait.

 

[Rappa]

The only benefit I've seen so far is that you can e-peen it up and be a shitty dd by pulling too much hate. Hey guess what, other jobs can do that too. Again, DDing isn't rocket science. It's about maximizing damage without becoming a liability. If you're fucking with hate, even with shadows to save your ass, you're a liability. Liabilities eventually lead to deaths which lead to downtime which leads to you wasting my time.

 

[Tyrath]

DRK/NIN. Now I use this myself sometimes, but only in dynamis and you can sure as hell expect me to have a scythe in my hand. You aren't a war, don't pretend to be one. If you wanna dual wield, level war or bst (yes, I think bst/nin is fine cause they have axe skill). Best case (as in, not in a cannon so you can sub what you want) you'd best have /WAR on doing the 1337 dmg with your scythe.

Most(by that I mean me) only subbed /nin when forced by parties to do so. And that was pretty often for limits.

 

[Rappa]

Most(by that I mean me) only subbed /nin when forced by parties to do so. And that was pretty often for limits.

Same, and like I said in the opening paragraph, /nin is great for cannon merit pts (but you'd better still have a scythe on, rofl).

 

[Khali]

all this /war /nin /thf depends on how good your tank is really.. I've had tanks where i could dish out 1K+ sa/gekko's on my sam and hate wouldn't change.

If your tank can't hold hate... you either go /nin or just suffer getting hit.. you can use any weapons you want when partying. There's a reason why SE have different grades for weapons. If not... then jobs would only have 1 weapon to choose from.

It'd be...
WAR = G Axe or Axe only (no everything else practically)
MNK = H2H only (no staves)
THF = Dagger only (no swords)
RDM = Sword or Dagger Only (no staves)
WHM = Club Only (no staves)
BLM = Staff only (no clubs)
PLD = Sword or G Sword Only (no Staff for you)
DRK = Scythe or G Sword only (no wielding swords or axes or G Axes)
RNG = Marksmanship or Archery only (no wielding daggers or axes =P)

and so on....

SE lets you use other weapons for a reason. DRK on its own gets a lotta attack bonuses I think 3, correct? (warrior has one atk bonus and 1 def bonus). That and drk's have more str than a war and have souleater and last resort (and i'll even that out with war's berserk and warcry). So dual wielding axes seems like you can go all out and not worry about hate too much because you already toned down your dmg by choosing a lower graded weapon with lower base dmg. I could be wrong, I don't play drk, but that's the way I see it. It sorta evens out... in a way.

Drk = B- in 1h Axe, War = A-
Drk has souleater and last resort, War has berserk and warcry
Drk has more str and atk, war has double attack ability

Not saying it works out perfectly but... it's not that bad of a situation.

 

[Klank]

From what I've gathered from all the posts so far with regards to BLU/NIN...

It allows you the ability to spam magic without having to take into consideration the issue of gaining hate because you can simply blink it away. This is basicly why many people sub NIN in the first place. As far as TP gain goes, I don't think /NIN will really have a considerable effect on it because you're spending most of your time casting, meaning you'll roughly swing the same number of times between spells regardless.

People are saying that using /WAR for BLU will boost their melee damage, and that is probably true. The only flaw with that theory is, as Uzor showed, 2/3 of his damage is from spells, thus making it more effective to focus on spell-casting rather than melee damage.

This is just what I think, though. Let it be known that my BLU is level 8 and I have partied with maybe 4 or 5 BLUs at higher levels since the job was released so I have no real experience with all the other subs.

 

[Shaunessy]

I had a Bravo's sub, but ditched it cause I don't have shikaree harness or speed belt to compliment it and went with republican subligar for TP, and noct+1 for ws.

No one has asked me what sub I use, I have the ones available to me in my sig, and when I get invited I show up /war since no one has specified yet.

As far as the leet gear you talk about, it isn't that leet, drg harness isn't that hard to obtain anymore, it's what 3-4m? I'm 56 and am pretty pimped, I'm missin m.kris, CoP body and speed belt, and PCC/PCA to be all the way pimped. But as far as gimps like you go, I'm god with a dagger/shield.

I think the Spike Necklace is better for THF anyway over the PCC/PCA. Sure it would be nice to have a PCC/PCA as THF, but ACC is worth shit when you are hitting the mob for 0.

 

[Sneakypants]

Speaking to THF sub:

We all know the pros and cons of /WAR and /NIN...Most of us anyway.
Now, let's say you are THF/NIN and you pull plenty of hate and tank quite a bit. The argument for /WAR is about as appealing as signing your own death certificate.

I love /WAR, but I end up with the REQUIREMENT that I TA+WS just to save my own ass. With /NIN, already putting up some nice numbers, I can SAWS, TAWS, or WS TA and SA all separately to provide flexibility. THF excels at providing flexibility and your parsers will not reflect that. When, not if, I take hate, so be it...It'll give the "tank" a rest. Hell, it'll give the whole party a rest.

THF/NIN is not exclusively about damage. It's about flexibility and control. THF/WAR is very limited once you stop talking about damage. Sure it sees better numbers, but are they that much better that you're willing to say goodbye to things like flexibility, control, tanking adds, improving the constant flow of XP, keeping an NM occupied while the rest of your group recovers, etc.?

I'm not saying one is right or wrong, but some people clearly are. Go /WAR to see higher WS numbers and higher melee swings (not so much if berserk isn't up), but not always more DoT due to lack of flexible play as a THF and how that relates to the flow of XP (i.e. MP sponge, saving a tank or healer from dying, any of the above mentioned things, etc.).

It's the "soft" unparseable things that make /NIN shine. All things equal, /WAR gettings the larger numbers and /NIN is far more well rounded and suited to deal with anything that can/will happen.

 

[Rappa]

People are saying that using /WAR for BLU will boost their melee damage, and that is probably true. The only flaw with that theory is, as Uzor showed, 2/3 of his damage is from spells, thus making it more effective to focus on spell-casting rather than melee damage.

In this case, wouldn't /BLM be a better sub than /NIN? It gives you more mp, Conserve MP for more attacks, an INT boost, and other nifty magic enhancing abilities. Or are blus still falling back on the "we do teh uber dmg, need teh blinks"? I always thought if you pulled hate you'd just Headbutt to give the tank time to get it back, that's what I do on drk (Stun, that is).

Edit: Punctuation. And wait, why can I edit on the flameboard? <_<

 

[Skaw]

To Shaunessy:
Thiefs: Love Torque or GTFO.

In this case, wouldn't /BLM be a better sub than /NIN? It gives you more mp, Converse MP for more attacks, an INT boost, and other nifty magic enhancing abilities? Or are blus still falling back on the "we do teh uber dmg, need teh blinks"? I always thought if you pulled hate you'd just Headbutt to give the tank time to get it back, that's what I do on drk (Stun, that is).

MAB(as well as INT most of the time) doesn't affect physical blue magic, which is where the damage comes from.

 

[Rappa]

Speaking to THF sub:

I agree a bit on thf/nin, which is why I said in the OP that it could kinda go either way, though I'd still like to see more thfs siding with /war over /nin or at least not being afraid to try it.

 

[Sneakypants]

I agree a bit on thf/nin, which is why I said in the OP that it could kinda go either way, though I'd still like to see more thfs siding with /war over /nin or at least not being afraid to try it.

Indeed. I use it when it's the wise choice. ^^

Thiefs: Love Torque or GTFO.

<Can I have it?>

 

[alanon]

The only benefit I've seen so far is that you can e-peen it up and be a shitty dd by pulling too much hate. Hey guess what, other jobs can do that too. Again, DDing isn't rocket science. It's about maximizing damage without becoming a liability. If you're fucking with hate, even with shadows to save your ass, you're a liability. Liabilities eventually lead to deaths which lead to downtime which leads to you wasting my time.

Are you kidding me? So he pulls hate from the tank, doesn't much matter if he has utsu to keep him alive, does it? The shitty DDs you are referring to, are Drks that SeLr off the bat, or overnuking Blms, etc. In short, you are only truly a stupid DD if you pull hate to the point where the healers heal you more than nec. If Uzor can pop off a boat load of damage, pull hate, and have shadows absorb the damage, then there's nothing stupid in that.

 

[alanon]

Im arguing /war's raw dmg potential against /nin.

That reminds me off the old Blm/Smn and Blm/Nin debates. Sure, they can do more damage, but they are overall more of a hinderance to the party.

 

[Isac]

I cant entirely tell if your comment on drk/nin was directed at all situations or just the lower lvls, but if exping against imps in caedarva, i dont see it being a problem. Some have been known to rip out 2k damage rampages (Alastor for example). Yes i know the whole "leet rampge" thing seems stupid, but doing 2k damage in 1 shot is basicly soloing the mob.

yes i also know you wont do that every time, but if your doing damage even close to that, the rest of your pt will do enough damage to finish off the mob really quick. /nin will stop you from takeing.... any damage at all if your pts good enough to kill it b4 you get hit.

So im sry i dont quite see the issue. Plz understand im a sam, not a drk or any of the jobs you mentioned that uses /nin so plz elaborate the negatives w/o getting pissed of.

PS: I only use /war or /thf. Im not a /rng kinda guy XP

 

[meeze]

I think the Spike Necklace is better for THF anyway over the PCC/PCA. Sure it would be nice to have a PCC/PCA as THF, but ACC is worth shit when you are hitting the mob for 0.

+1 att isn't going to turn your 0 into a 15, it would be for TP gain onry and spike for WS and SATA. Again I was pointing out PCA/PCC for maxed pimpness, the pimpness I have now is pretty damn nice.

Right now my SATA and TP gain equip macros are full, after 60 I think most equip macros are going to take 2 macros to perform for each set.