RDM Melee - please stop

[Bajaratt]

The RDM JSE by far has RDM melee in mind, as the full set gives RDM +21 acc and -17 Enmity also more MP than Errant gear....-Enmity is only useful when in PTs and only high level RDMs can use it. RDMs only have a hard time hitting mobs when they are in parties, as every job misses more in parties, just not as much as the Melee mage.

Taking a Look at the JSE's stats, I'd have to disagree with this. The fact that almost all pieces give +magic accuracy, +MP and -enmity indicate the usefulness of a MAGE. You don't need any of those if you're meleeing, if you're pulling hate while meleeing on rdm, you have one gimped as fuck tank. Also, there's only +13 acc on this gear total, +18 on the HQ, and NONE of it has attack, so it's not for meleeing in a party. The +acc is just so you'd wear it while farming.

Don't use the "well, I can't do much because the mobs die so fast" defense for meleeing rdm's. To most people it's a cop out, I mean, why should I bother to haste a tank when the fight will be over really fast? It doesn't work well and it shows more of lazyness on your part than any kind of helpfulness.

If you're the ONE rdm on the server able to melee in an exp party and still actually do your job, fine. The other 99% of rdm's however, can't do shit, so please don't encourage them.

 

[Alyada]

but what suprised me is.. I was tooooo "lucky" to be able to see some 60ish lv RDM/SMNs at this lv... /sigh
I was thinking that "Oh maybe they just finished soloing" , but in fact they do not have whm or blm lvled to be sub.. one of them even told me, his whm and blm all lower then 15lv, and found many excuses for not lvling them such as no money no time...

{Common sense} {Can I have it?}

I'm a 67RDM/SMN & I like it. ^^; It's not the best choice, I'll admit, and sometimes I wish I had BLM leveled so I didn't have to spend money on Warp Cludgels, but being a RDM/SMN let's me focus on enfeebles, MB, and refresh chains. Which, really, is all I can handle in a party.

I understand that some people look down on SMN sub, but it's really the RDM that makes the sub, not the sub that makes the RDM.

 

[Mokk]

occasionally i melee with whm when no one flips out and can still manage to keep buffs up and cure people via actually *gasp* typing the commands out cos i'm quick like that ... if yer rdm can't melee and manage to cast properly .... kick em .. what's so hard to understand about that? fact of the matter is if they weren't spose to melee they'd be proficient in one of the weaker weapons as opposed to the sword .. but it still stands to reason if yer gonna melee with a mage job, please be able to do your casting job .. if you can't keep up with both .. don't do both or change jobs

 

[Hecate]

All I really have to say is that as long as the RDM is casting enfeebles, refresh, dispel, etc... they can do whatever the hell they want (excluding severely idiotic actions).

 

[CubsWoo]

I'm a 67RDM/SMN & I like it. ^^; It's not the best choice, I'll admit, and sometimes I wish I had BLM leveled so I didn't have to spend money on Warp Cludgels, but being a RDM/SMN let's me focus on enfeebles, MB, and refresh chains. Which, really, is all I can handle in a party.

I understand that some people look down on SMN sub, but it's really the RDM that makes the sub, not the sub that makes the RDM.

At least you admit it's not 'the best choice.' As a third fiddle I can understand SMN (especially after 50) but it just seems like you lose so much utility for the sake of some extra MP and Aerial Armor.

Without /WHM:

- No status effect healing
- No Erase
- No -ra and -ga spells (especially at those levels where you're in Bibiki almost exclusively)
- No Divine Seal
- No GTFO capability (72+, Chainspell/tele)

Without /BLM:

- No elemental enfeebles (and try twisting a BLMs arm to actually DO those)
- No Drain/Aspir
- No Sleepga
- No Ele Seal to guarantee a sleep stick
- No GTFO capability (CS Warp, CS Escape)

It's hard to be 'the RDM that makes the sub' when people are better equipped to help a party by default. I could be the most skilled MNK/SAM on the planet and other MNK/WARs would still outdamage me just because they brought the better sub to the party.

 

[Mokk]

my dmg w/ mnk/sam is comparable with mnk/war but i don't have to wait around to be able to SC, on the contrary i pull out more dmg with WSs and 2 SCs or better a fight..... course .. i'm galkan with o kotes and fumas and stuff usually .. but that's not what the thread was about .. just wanted to throw it out there :lol:

 

[Falsey]

RDM mele in a party just gives the mob more TP. In places like Bibiki where gobs drop bombs non-stop, do you really want that?

That 10-15 damage the RDM is hitting for, isnt going to kill the mob faster, but that dispell the RDM didnt cast, or that refresh that was missed, that type of thing will effect the parties performance.

RDM/NIN is prob the worst party subjob there is. And people will most likely not kick a RDM because they are so hard to come by. You can have a party without a MNK, RNG, BLM, WHM, SMN, DRG, DRK, SAM, DRG, NIN or PLD, but who wants to party without a refresher?

 

[silvereyes]

Let me say first that I have not melee'd since the dunes and I have slightly above average CASTING red mage gear (I'm currently trying to accumulate 2 mil gil for a jungle rope and i bought my first phantom earring yesterday).

I have one of those inquisitive minds that likes to know why people do the things that they do. My theory is that Red Mages were intended to melee by square enix. Just look at the job specific gear they get. + parrying skill, +shield skill, +dex and things like that.

The problem that arose is that Square Enix intended players to be leveling off of T, VT, and low IT mobs and chaining them like crazy. We took the game in a different direction than square intended, though, and started leveling off of the hardest mobs we could find within reason (and in some cases, not within reason ).

If we had done what SE intended us to, and leveled off of T, VT, and low ITs, red mages would be doing, if not good, but not exactly wasteful damage. I think the redmages who melee have picked up on this original intention, but they have not picked up on the fact that we have changed the nature of lvling and that all they do by swinging their swords is give the mob more TP.

This is just my theory, though, and maybe a bit of food for thought. It in no way excuses the meleeing RDMs. They infuriate me too (I constantly say that i chose RDM so I wouldn't have to party with other RDMs ), but I like to know all the reasons behind someone's mentality, and I thought this might be an appropriate thread to insert my theory.

 

[Mariox]

I don't kick them cause I'm never leader, and gotten to point that if thay refresh and dispell, thats likly the best we would get with rdm.

And when maintaining a Refresh cycle resting is not worth 2 measly ticks of MP, as RDMs rest slower than the other MP users. Convert will always come a good time before it's time to convert.

If you start refresh cycle at start of mob, and it dies fast, you have time to rest after. if your able to rest 2-3 ticks that would be like 60-90 MP, enoph to add a nuke which is more then your melee will do anyway.

Theres a problem if a rdm gets 100 TP, should not be keeping sword out, along with your WS is not going to do anything, spirit withen is only WS worth using, and only 300 TP.

as RDMs rest slower than the other MP users.

Hardly, maybe 3 or 6 at most

The RDM JSE by far has RDM melee in mind, as the full set gives RDM +21 acc and -17 Enmity also more MP than Errant gear....-Enmity is only useful when in PTs and only high level RDMs can use it. RDMs only have a hard time hitting mobs when they are in parties, as every job misses more in parties, just not as much as the Melee mage.

Other equip give more MP. -enmity for RDM is ONLY useful in HNM fights or any long battle while a RDM is curing alot. RDM should never get hate in party with - 0 enimity. or as stated, the tank stinks. Guess theres some times where that +acc is nice, but not exp partys. RDM JSE is POS, legs only part that I'd use.

I'd also like to point out how at higher levels when in PTs. Mobs don't live long enough for a RDM to have to cast on them enfeebling magic twice.

If rdm has good enoph +int/mnd the enfeeble will stick first time, and for whole time at any level. unless its something for 200+ exp. or kills are slow. For me, when I saw convert near up I could go threw 900 MP MB doing nice damage that way. Up to 816 damage with thunder 3 MB

Thanatos Baselard is cheep because of alot of rdms get joyesue, or know meleeing in party is pointless, and if thay don't melee, using staff or mythic wand is better then that.

because Melee does not stop one from casting,

As I sead in original post YES IT DOSE. cause it distracts the RDM from his/her job. I meleed once I mastered refresh/enfeebling, and I even saw my performance drop

RDMs MB does not do much damage most of the time,

Thats the problem with not enoph +int, enoph +int you will get full damage on MB 90% of the time. Unless its a water MB on a crab. and ay 72 you can be main healer without having -enmity, you have to cast plenty of cure 4 to get hate.

Seen pld not rest MP between fights, don't make it right. Can't always rest, good timing, and you can. If your doing a good job keeping refresh up, most people will not complain if it wears for a min anyway.

WS every 3 fights? I thought before mobs don't last long. if it dies fast, its dead before refresh cycle and enfeeble cycle is done

so if a RDM cannot melee and do their job

exactly, melee is not the RDM's job.

I'm shur you have a good concept of RDM job, and you do fine rdm melee anttaru, but thats only true for like 10% of the melee RDMs.

RDM AF pants are not useless ^^ they're great for bar spells. But that's another flame altogether.

Ok, I grant you that Uzor. Tho have to sub whm to put it to work in party. (-enspells I guess also, might add 1 damage, tho IT mobs resist -en spells most the time, so more like .5 more damage).

personally, i just hit 45, and i've been meleeing the whole time i could. why? because a RDM can do everything, and i do just that. dia -> refresh -> slow + paralyze -> refresh -> gravity + blind -> refresh...

You don't have haste yet, and no, whm should not cover all melee, and I asume you skip MB which would do more damage then all your melee attacks would do. Might be reason some rdms don't enfeebles, it gives them more time to swing. If you get more then 10-15 swings off, your not casting enoph, or getting slow kills. And if your going to melee, your natuly will want to -en spell and haste yourself, and if you save TP by not equiping club (for paralize), staffs for other spells (if thay hard to stick) the tank will take more damage causeing more downtime. MND is vary important for paralize, I'm near maxed out for +mnd that you can get at 69 and IT flys in boya tree often I seen paralized 3 times in a row, and seen up to 5 times in a row.

If you can't time refresh to be able to rest between fights ever (or start resting near the end of one) and add a MB nuke. I guess you might have to melee instead. If you think RDM nuke is insignificant, you don't have much +int.

Going to try to find a party with rng now, if theres a rdm it better not melee, cause I might blow up on him.

THERE IS NO PLACE FOR MELEE RDM AT END GAME. Teppo tryed being melee rdm in dynamis, that was a big failure and was kicked from shell.

think SE illusined noob RDMs that thay can melee by adding that level 72 POS JSE. Funny how prices on them on other survers are still 2 mill for body, 1 mill for rest, when its 600K body, 360K rest on this surver. (I think it was).

 

[Neche]

The RDM JSE by far has RDM melee in mind, as the full set gives RDM +21 acc and -17 Enmity also more MP than Errant gear....-Enmity is only useful when in PTs and only high level RDMs can use it. RDMs only have a hard time hitting mobs when they are in parties, as every job misses more in parties, just not as much as the Melee mage.

I had full JSE... Waste of 3mil if you ask me. The head and body are good for the +Magic Accuraccy against Gods, but really useless other wise.

Errant gives you a large boost of INT and MND, along with some MP(which I don't like personally because it screws with my HP/MP ratio.)
With decent food I can have +65(or so) INT and +30-40 MND. That is much better than Have + 13accuracy and some -Enmity.(Which Errant gives enough of anyway)

JSE is pretty much. If your a taru, and want to look badass. Go spend it. But once I bought it all, I just sold it right back....


As far as melee'ing as a RDM 41+ Don't. You have far better things to be doing than Melee, the DMG you do isn't worth it.

Refresh, and enfeeb, that's all you should be doing. When your not, you rest. In most parties You will have a RDM, WHM, BLM, PLD, sometimes a DRK. That means you have 5 people to your refresh order.

I enfeeb first, refresh later. You have MP you don't need refresh. I would do my standard, Blind, Para, Slow, Gravity, Bio Dia(Depending on what the BLM wants) then Focus on my refresh.

REFRESHING

/ma "Refresh" <st>
/wait 19
/echo ~~~*~*~*REFRESH READY*~*~*~~~

/ma "Refresh" <st>
/wait 19
/echo ~~~*~*~*REFRESH READY*~*~*~~~

ETC.

Do this 5 times. By the time you are 70+, you should know how long your refreshs last!

Between the time when you cast your last refresh on who-ever, you should restick enfeebs if the fight isnt over, cure, and HEAL. Doing 4-5 refreshs' a fight is 200mp! Go get that back!

After awhile you SHOULD know how long a normal Refresh last. I'm not saying time it, but you should just know. Start casting on yourself before it Wears, that means by the time refresh is Ready for the next person, you should already be casting by the time theirs wears too!

If your party has a constant refresh the only one who should be without MP is YOU. That's why we get convert. You SHOULD be out of MP by the time you hit chain 5! If your not, then you should be casting more.

If you can manage to do all of this and keep MP tip top, then Good! Do that somemore.


As you reach higher levels there is just no time for Melee. A mage depends on MP. Refresh gives you 3 mp a tick, THAT IS NOT THAT MUCH. When your low on MP, you don't refresh yourself then just keep refreshing until your full, that's a waste of time!

Melee before Refresh, I don't think that's a problem, hell you can do more than the PLD. But once you get refresh, switch to a MAGE subjob, MAGE gear, and start being a MAGE.



PS. Just to clarify "If you have MP, you don't need refresh"

I mean, if your just starting up and everyone is full. DEAR GOD, don't <call> for refresh, there is nothing a RDM hates more than people using <calls> to get refresh. You will get refresh, don't panic.

 

[Moev]

Hmm

It is hard to disagree with anything in this thread. I have to say what ticks me the most is rdm's who complain about being refresh whores. Not to say that is all a rdm can do and brings to a party but come on people, why did you play rdm in the first place if you don't want to do your job properly.

Falsey sorry to say this but with the utter lack of skilled rdm's available, I do. :lol:

Just have to say that since may static had so many bad rdm's we often would have two blm's over a rdm since it was very hard to find a brd. Granted this wouldn't work very well in all party cases, but since our static consisted of players who were all highly skilled in their jobs the exp worked out 2X better on average verses when we had a rdm.

I personally am extreemly anti-Rdm because of all the horrible parties with crappy rdms. Which is why I am over the moon when I run into an actual great rdm who knows their job and is good at it. This is by no means a slam on the job of rdm, just a personal feeling (unfair I know) due to all the crappy players giving rdm a bad name.

As the whm in my static downtime was never a factor without refresh since I sub /SMN and the auto-refresh and Vcloak helped in that area, but moreso my pulling pollicy that 1MP is ok to pull, 0 = let's rest for awhile. Only time we ran into a problem with deaths was due to a bad pop or a 1 shot kill from a mob which happens every now and then.

Keep in mind also that our regular BLM was awsome. We would open every fight with a SC which our BLM would MB twice on along with the second BLM's stronger MB. This accounted for alot of damage. Some fights (like a chain 5 or 6) we would even have two sets of skill chains so it would end extreemly fast. Skillchain1 double MB + MB and skillchain2 MB + MB = Death.

With crappy rdm's our Exp per hr would be like 1-2k at best. With 2 BLM's our exp always jumped to atleast 3k per hour, normally 4-7k per hour. Many times we have done a 3hr session getting about 20k exp in total.

Anyway just wanted to point out that you can get good exp without a refresher, it just isn't the most easy thing to do. I love Rdm's and Brd's, since I am a whm and refresh and/or ballad's make me happy, however I am just tainted by the increase of bad rdm's. Both meele rdm's who don't refresh or debuff, and just plain shitty rdm's who don't know their jobs and make the rdm job look bad.

The only good thing about all this (Silver lining) is that people in general pay more attention to those of you who are great RDM's, since it is so hard to find you guys lol.

 

[silvereyes]

PS. Just to clarify "If you have MP, you don't need refresh"

I mean, if your just starting up and everyone is full. DEAR GOD, don't <call> for refresh, there is nothing a RDM hates more than people using <calls> to get refresh. You will get refresh, don't panic.

Correction: the one thing good rdms hate the most is when the mob has not done anything to dispel and a melee calls for dispel simply because he's not hitting. Buy some friggin +acc gear

 

[Moev]

Umm dispel...

Just in case you didn't know, mobs have a tendicy to buff themselfs up while sitting around. If you are talking about only a select few mobs which you are pulling from non stop and they don't get a chance to buff I can see your point.

Maybe just keep in mind that sometimes it is possible to need a dispel when the mob hasn't casted a spell during the fight. If not acc gear atleast use some acc food though lol.

 

[Legomyeggo]

Re: Umm dispel...

Just in case you didn't know, mobs have a tendicy to buff themselfs up while sitting around. If you are talking about only a select few mobs which you are pulling from non stop and they don't get a chance to buff I can see your point.

Maybe just keep in mind that sometimes it is possible to need a dispel when the mob hasn't casted a spell during the fight. If not acc gear atleast use some acc food though lol.

There aren't any Evasion enhancing spells in the game besides blink, if that even qualifies.

 

[CubsWoo]

The only pre-buffed mobs are beastmen, and any RDM that doesn't throw a Dispel within 10 seconds of a beastman coming to camp needs to start doing it.

 

[Rinoah]

If you see a RDM meleeing then go melee yourselves if you are a mage! BLM get your daggers and WHM get your clubs! then you get to laugh at the hypocrites complaining about you meleeing. doesn't really solve the problem...but i find it makes it more bearable. (although if you are unable to melee and do your job at the same time you probably shouldn't....)

 

[Panda]

falsey = teh sex

 

[Villarel]

Re: Umm dispel...

There aren't any Evasion enhancing spells in the game besides blink, if that even qualifies.

Beetles have Rhino guard which enhances their evasion.

 

[hellstorm]

the other side

it sound like you had a case of A) a nub battlemage who didnt know what to do or B) a mana mage that decide he needed to play catchup on his/her sword skill

me i have been meleeing from day 1 and still keep up with my enf. refresh and hardly ever have to sit to med between converts
to have a melee sub during a exp party is bad and that rdm should be booted because with melee class your mana is cut by 100 mp at least and no way he be able to keep up with spells if he could even get them to stick. but to flame all mages from meleeing is bs :x because melleing not the problem its they just nubs at it. at 65 i had sword enfeebling dark elemental capped and enhancing 1 point from capped and dagger coming along was at 194. i even use acc food to help. but i have full af and mage gear with a balance buckler so a battle mage should know mage frist melee secound if a rdm falls behind then he need to sit back and catch up

that my 2 gil
hellstorm
66rdm/blm
redmage is not a job it a adventure

 

[Nikoloi]

i have had 2 cases of bad rdms. First Babysteppzzz saying he doesnt refresh DRKS cause he has "More important things to do" and sits there meleeing for 0 dmg and getting bomb toss deaths and blaming the PLD. its sad. there are a few rdms that i do pt with that melee and keep everyone and mean everyone Refreshed in this case i do not mind meleeing rdms. And then babysteppzzz went on to say.. ok well im going to go. mid chain. saying "Im bored." well......