Relic Weapons just aren't that great...

I think SE pushed it a little too far.
This is way too hard to get a relic
I seen a post not so long ago about adding currency to signet guard
so we could all build our own relic by making experience points
I found that idea to be nice, a lot of ppl would like get their chance to get a relic weapon.
Personally if i had the choice i would take Kikoku over Aegis(im pld and nin)
but its just because i enjoy way much playing ninja.
I know Aegis is "better" but that is it!
 
Maths said:
I think SE pushed it a little too far.
This is way too hard to get a relic
I seen a post not so long ago about adding currency to signet guard
so we could all build our own relic by making experience points
I found that idea to be nice, a lot of ppl would like get their chance to get a relic weapon.
Personally if i had the choice i would take Kikoku over Aegis(im pld and nin)
but its just because i enjoy way much playing ninja.
I know Aegis is "better" but that is it!
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Just like I would take an Aegis over a Kikoku, I have more fun playing PLD than NIN.
But yours is a better proof, that relics are personal toys, not omfg I gotta get this to make this or that possible.
 
A fully upgraded relic is, first and foremost, done for the sake of personal accomplishment (or, devil's advocate, as a demonstration of not having a life XD).

If you want to take it a step further than that and justify it not simply for the effort and accomplishment, but actually by its *effectiveness*... well then you have to define that. Effectiveness for a group? For solo? For yourself or for yourself and others? What situations? BS'ing around? BC fights and stuff? Instanced or quasi-instanced events like Dynamis, Limbus, Assault, Salvage? Compete for claim events like HNMs? What jobs can use the weapon? What is their general role without the weapon? Does this role change with the weapon? Whether the role changes or not, is the (new) role improved by the weapon or not, and if so, by how much? Does this change affect the weapon holder only (and perhaps others indirectly, such as by faster damage), or is it a lynchpin to a change in overall strategy?

... Those are the sort of questions you have to be able to answer, in order to justify a relic as being useful and *worth getting*, for something more than the sheer accomplishment and bragging rights.
 
lol at Mandau being #3....

On a pure damage basis: Bow, and Gun > Mandau. May have the higest DPS, but that don't mean shit when you get trumped by job abilities and Weaponskills.

On a utility basis: GK > Madau. Mandau if used on an HNM could run the risk of poisoning the mob making it unsleepable. It also Continues Darkness, which is currenly relatively useless, and it's WS is in an elemental house that is already populated by a Dagger WS(Gravitation) and Grav the last time I checked is pretty useless. Not to mention you shoudl be Using a Thief Knife in those situations, and in those situations either you are subbing war for claim, or sam for tp reduction and skillchain, so offhanding Thief Knife isn't really an option unless you're a complete tool.

And no. Relic Weapons should NOT be readily available to the general population. It's somethnng that a group works for. To have it pissed on and watered down for the masses would make dynamis totally worthless and all the past accomplishments moot. They are not meant to be attained by the masses. What would be next? Buying a Ridill with Imperial Standing? Is that fair? Absolutely.
 
I want Claustrum. Fuck you guys and your gay Aegis' and Gayjalhorns. Claustrum can solo 10 Absolute Virtues with a hole in the flag at the end.

It's shear weapon skill power haunts Zeus and his fellow gods. Just pop on your optical hat and sniper's +1 and you got a force more powerful than all of the United States nuclear weapons, the Nazi war machine at the height of it's power and a Canadian clubbing defenseless baby seals.
 
Is Gjallarhorn game-breaking simply because of the 6 MP/tick ballad? I'm pretty sure you can get the +2 to March, Madrigal, Minuet, Carol, or whatever by macroing instruments.

I mean, 6MP/tick is awesome. I don't know, though, for a couple hundred million gil I would expect something a little MORE game-breaking. At least make my minuets stronger, for God's sake. Is there something I'm missing?
 
7 mp/tick actually and yes, it does noticeably effect your strategy. MP(a stopgap given how fast you can expend it) stops being an issue anymore, 12 mp/tick in Aht urghan areas is insane.
 
Did someone say TH? Where's Sneakypants?

Btw Uzor, I think you made a typo. Geirskogul has a 60% AGI modifier.
 
Phraust said:
What would be next? Buying a Ridill with Imperial Standing? Is that fair? Absolutely.
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300 billion Imp Gold pieces gogogo
 
Bajaratt said:
7 mp/tick actually and yes, it does noticeably effect your strategy. MP(a stopgap given how fast you can expend it) stops being an issue anymore, 12 mp/tick in Aht urghan areas is insane.
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Only 12? 7 from Ballad I/II, 3 from Refresh, 1 from Auto-Refresh, 1 from Sanction Refresh.... Needs moar Corsair. 15-17 mp/tick gogogo!
 
Eliott said:
Did someone say TH? Where's Sneakypants?

Btw Uzor, I think you made a typo. Geirskogul has a 60% AGI modifier.
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Yes, I ment AGI. Hence the WTF.

Additionally, a THF don't need Thief's Knife throughout the entire fight. They just need to switch it in at the end.

Bajaratt said:
The proof of how little you actually know of monk is so perfectly displayed here:

So go ahead, keep thinking you know more about the job than I do, when you've never even leveled it. Asuran fists SUCKS, it sucks unbelievably hard; anyone who says otherwise is an idiot. Spharai won't do shit to boost your Asuran numbers.

As far as the triple damage vs crititcal hits goes, the critical hits for monk are close to triple their damage anyways. When you're hitting a mamool for 60, do a crit for 150; that's a 2.5x boost. The critical hits help more because they occur much more often, even if it's a slightly lower damage boost.

Spharai are still the worst of the relic weapons.
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I know, there's stronger WS's then Asuran Fists. That brings up the question, if there are stronger H2H weapon skills, then why do all MNK's use Asuran Fists? Additionally, I am 100% sure Spharai would still increase Asuran Fists damage due to Spharai's higher base damage.

Also, Gjallhorn is only awesome for Ballad. For almost all other songs, normal instruments can replace it.

Spharai is still far from the worst relic weapon.
 
You're right. Spharai would increase Asurans maximum damage. But not by a whole lot. Maybe about 100 total, if you land all 8 hits.

Why Spharai is the worst Relic: Magic Bursts.

Enemies you'd magic burst on to bring down faster, a monk would be chi blasting. You'd never make use of Final Heavens ability to continue light(or just Final Heaven itself, it stinks, and it's bonus isn't as useful as others) anywhere near enough to justify completing it.

You're also forgetting for Gjallarhorn, that it frees up a lot of inventory.
 
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Skaw said:
You're right. Spharai would increase Asurans maximum damage. But not by a whole lot. Maybe about 100 total, if you land all 8 hits.

Why Spharai is the worst Relic: Magic Bursts.

Enemies you'd magic burst on to bring down faster, a monk would be chi blasting. You'd never make use of Final Heavens ability to continue light(or just Final Heaven itself, it stinks, and it's bonus isn't as useful as others) anywhere near enough to justify completing it.

You're also forgetting for Gjallhorn, that it frees up a lot of inventory.
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Yes, I mentined before that other then the free up inv space and Refresh, Gjallhorn is useless. And the only use Gjallhorn have is to low-man stuff, since you can do any other event with 12-18 people already. Its not that game breaking.

And how often do you actually have other melees meleeing in end-game anyway? Jailer of Love you mainy use SAM's to SC, hence why I said Amano is a good relic. THF's do a whole lot less damage then SAM's on Jailer of Love, and they also need to build TP.

lolWAR, lolDRG, lolDRK etc.

Sure, Kirin all melees can be useful if you melee burn, but MNK and WAR will have priority. In most things that you actually use melees on, MNK and WAR will have priority together with NIN tanks.
 
How sadistic of Square-Enix would it be if the only way to lock AV's 2-hours is a weapon skill from each job's corresponding relic weapon? Example: Metatron Torment would lock Mighty Strikes, Spharai Hundred Fists, etc.

I know that isn't it; even SE would not be that cruel. But I would lawl if it were.
 
The problem is, there is really nothing worthwhile about Spharai that warrants the resources it requires. The weaponskill and it's bonus are pitiful. You aren't likely to be participating in an actual manaburst skillchain. The DPS isn't feasibly higher than Destroyers. Infact, it's actually slightly worse*. Counter +10 is nice, but you're almost always going to be using Utsusemi, so it's not as attractive as it is on paper.

So you're left with +20 Attack, and a roughly 5% chance of doing 3x damage as the only real reason to own Spharai. Now, I'm not 100% sure, but I'm positive every relic besides this specific one, even though they have crafted/dropped alternative that are close, have a higher DPS than the rest of the weapons in their class. Spharai is worse than a common KSNM30 drop.

*Capped, unmerited HtH:
Destroyers(DMG51, Delay 174 = 17.586 DPS)
Spharai(DMG56, Delay 193 = 17.409 DPS)
Merited 8x:
Destroyers(DMG53, Delay 174 = 18.275 DPS)
Spharai(DMG58, Delay 193 = 18.031 DPS)

DPS is (DMG * 60)/Delay. Delay is halved here, since Hand to Hand is twice the attacks, for twice the delay.
 
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Skaw said:
The problem is, there is really nothing worthwhile about Spharai that warrants the resources it requires. The weaponskill and it's bonus are pitiful. You aren't likely to be participating in an actual manaburst skillchain. The DPS isn't feasibly higher than Destroyers. Infact, it's actually slightly worse*. Counter +10 is nice, but you're almost always going to be using Utsusemi, so it's not as attractive as it is on paper.

So you're left with +20 Attack, and a roughly 5% chance of doing 3x damage as the only real reason to own Spharai. Now, I'm not 100% sure, but I'm positive every relic besides this specific one, even though they have crafted/dropped alternative that are close, have a higher DPS than the rest of the weapons in their class. Spharai is worse than a common KSNM30 drop.

*Capped, unmerited HtH:
Destroyers(DMG51, Delay 174 = 17.586 DPS)
Spharai(DMG56, Delay 193 = 17.409 DPS)
Merited 8x:
Destroyers(DMG53, Delay 174 = 18.275 DPS)
Spharai(DMG58, Delay 193 = 18.031 DPS)

DPS is (DMG * 60)/Delay. Delay is halved here, since Hand to Hand is twice the attacks, for twice the delay.
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I never once said its worth the resources it requires. None of the relic weapons warants the 80mil+ price tag.

And the pure DPS is interesting. Its been tried though, and Spharai do outdamage Destroyers. How much I do not remember, though.
 
Ofcourse they'll outdamage on a per-hit basis. They have a higher damage rating, +20 attack to keep the average damage up, and can do triple damage occasionally. Thats not what DPS is though.
 
The extra refresh isn't quite as game-breaking now as it was before COR came around. It *is* still crucial for low-manning stuff, or for when time is a concern (Salvage for example, although Storm Fife can serve as a quasi-Gjallarhorn for that).

In addition to the inventory-saving (about a dozen inv slots freed up for a competent BRD) and the Ballad, it's also got awesome debuffing stats. But not many people care about those. :P
 
Yeah, the massive skill boosts on Gjallarhorn really can't be ignored, even if they don't boost your buffs.
 
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