THE Election 2008 Megathread!

[alanon]

Sabs my friend, I can respect that. Trust me. I used to lean towards McCain, but since the Palin choice (and it's not just Palin) I admit that it's more like 51/49 now. I usually vote first thing in the morning, but this year I might wait until after work so I can stew on it more.

 

[Dejavu]

Tbh if i had to choose A or B i lean McCain but they are both horrible choices and my state is going to McCain anyways so i am going to vote my Conscience and vote for Bob Barr.

 

[Mirewen]

Kinda like what I typed in bold. Be finacially responsible, and live to your means!

But again, this is like saying that people who are finding it hard to make ends meet aren't being financially responsible. Was it my fathers fault that my mom left him high and dry with 3 daughters to take care of, forcing him to declare bankruptcy because she also left him with all the bills and took all the money? That the court didn't make her pay any child support because of her gender? When if it was my father that left, you bet she would have gotten support. You can say "People abuse it" all you want, but that doesn't mean that people also don't and need the help.

We are talking in circles.

Maybe your country needs to be more strict on who they give welfare to. I completely disagree with people who are not working that live on welfare for extended periods of time, I think that is disgusting. I think we can at least all agree with that.

 

[Dejavu]

But again, this is like saying that people who are finding it hard to make ends meet aren't being financially responsible. Was it my fathers fault that my mom left him high and dry with 3 daughters to take care of, forcing him to declare bankruptcy because she also left him with all the bills and took all the money? That the court didn't make her pay any child support because of her gender? When if it was my father that left, you bet she would have gotten support. You can say "People abuse it" all you want, but that doesn't mean that people also don't and need the help.

We are talking in circles.

Maybe your country needs to be more strict on who they give welfare to. I completely disagree with people who are not working that live on welfare for extended periods of time, I think that is disgusting. I think we can at least all agree with that.

Bankruptcy laws are there in the first place to protect against situations like this and the double standards on support are bullshit.

 

[Mirewen]

double standards on support are bullshit.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Excim]

You can say "People abuse it" all you want, but that doesn't mean that people also don't and need the help.

We are talking in circles.

Maybe your country needs to be more strict on who they give welfare to. I completely disagree with people who are not working that live on welfare for extended periods of time, I think that is disgusting. I think we can at least all agree with that.

We aren't talking in circles, we both agree on this point. :wink:

Exactly. I'm not against welfare. I'm against people who exploit it. It can get damn easy to sit back and be lazy as long as the cheque is coming in.... Major respect to the people who needed it, used it properly, and got off it when they could stand on thier own again.

And the reason I'm talking about this, is because Obamas' plan seems to be a broader scale of welfare, which IS wealth redistribution, to many people who don't need/deserve the money, and only a few who do need it.

 

[Excim]

Sometimes you're in a position to help someone who is less fortunate than you. I'm floored that you think that all that money isn't worth this;

but I'm going to have to disagree. Life > Money. Oh and my Aunt is a 3 year breast cancer survivor - more treatment she wouldn't of been able to afford. Oy I don't even think I can talk to someone as cold as you, I just can't wrap my head around the fact that you value money more than life...

Sabs, I completely understand where you are coming from here. Your stance on the issue is very noble. But let me ask you a question. How much of your money that you work for, do you send overseas to starving children in under developed countries? Are their lives not as important as the money you make? I'm not asking this to embarrass you or make anyone look stupid (including myself), I just went for the extreme example to show that you have to draw a line, and when it comes down to it, you have a duty to yourself and your family. I mean, a person is supposed to work hard at becoming successful so they can have a good life, right? How many people are you going to make this person responsible for now??? Where do you draw the line?

And please don't take that as me saying "everyone else be damned" because that's just not true.

 

[Sabia]

I wish I had more money Ex but I don't - I volunteer helping retired racing dogs find homes in Canada during my spare time but admit to not sending money overseas as most of it won't get there. When my boss goes to Africa to build schools for children who's parents have died from aids I usually try to pick up some things for her to bring with her - toothbrushes, harmonica's, little drums, crayons and sometimes money if I have it.

However I do believe a government should take care of it's people - I pay big bucks every month to taxes that go to health care among other things. I can't elect the president of Ethiopia and think they're doing a piss poor job - I can however vote to help people within my country with their financial burdens and quality of life. There are people who abuse the system and goto a hospital for a cold but for every one of those there's someone who truly needs help - my dad when he had a heart attack, Taylor when she was born, my aunt who had breast cancer, my grandma getting a shoulder replacement and that's just in my family. I can't imagine denying someone life-saving treatment or drugs because they lost their job, are homeless, are old or just down on their luck, that doesn't sit well with me.

Besides I'd rather see a redistribution of wealth goto people who have lost their jobs, their homes or their health than give 700 billion to a bunch of corporate yahoo's who think spending government bail out money on 3,500/night hotel rooms is a good idea. You already redistributed your wealth - why not redistribute it in a more positive way.

 

[Mirewen]

I had a blast working for Habitat for Humanity and River of Life soup kitchen, as well as sponsoring a child. But if someone can barely support themselves, they do not give money. They give time.

 

[Excim]

I can't imagine denying someone life-saving treatment or drugs because they lost their job, are homeless, are old or just down on their luck, that doesn't sit well with me.

I know you aren't implying that it does sit well with anyone, and I feel it's a tragedy when ever someone is sick and can't take care of themselves. I believe government assistance is okay in situations such as that, since a little bit from everyone can go a long way to help one person, but when you start really digging into peoples pockets to serve a lot of underachievers for no reason than to pander to them, that's when you have people like me start to bitch. And yes, I believe Obama is pandering. He knows damn well that as soon as the people learn they can take money from other people by using the vote, that they would. And here we are.

Besides I'd rather see a distribution of wealth goto people who have lost their jobs, their homes or their health than give 700 billion to a bunch of corporate yahoo's who think spending government bail out money on 3,500/night hotel rooms is a good idea. You already redistributed your wealth - why not redistribute it in a more positive way.

Why do you think these people have lost their jobs? Because owners of manufacturing industries can't make a decent profit with the constant undercutting of the world market? Because the steel and aluminum industries are being lost to the less expensive Asian industries? The owners of these companies are the ones Obama wants to tax... you think they are going to create a job for the poor guy who can't afford healthcare now? No, the answer is no.

And as far as the bailout money... I believe you are talking about AIG. The ones who spent money on that event, the 3500/night hotel, was a subsidiary company of AIG, with separate funds from the parent company, and was still doing healthy business. They hold that event for potential customers to ensure the keep doing business with them. Funny, I'll bet that part got left out of the New York Times...

I got told earlier not to buy into the bullshit I was "getting fed'. (No, not by you Sabs) It was good advice all the same, and applies to everyone.


On a side note, for those of you who think they are getting substantial news from the likes of The Daily Show or Colbert Report.... /facepalm

 

[Excim]

I had a blast working for Habitat for Humanity and River of Life soup kitchen, as well as sponsoring a child. But if someone can barely support themselves, they do not give money. They give time.

These people who can barely support themselves, they still find time to play video games, do they not? I'm not trying to just throw barbs out here, but it's apples and apples in my book. Again, where is the line?

 

[Dejavu]

Ok... time to rant... i am 100% against redistribution of wealth and i do believe that taxes are a form of this. This was lost a long time ago but the government is a buisness (and an extremely poor run one at that). They are not supposed to make a profit or take a loss they are supposed to only take what is needed. The basic role of government is to keep it citizens safe from people out and in our country however not from oneself. That means National defense (not our current national offense) and policing within our borders.

This is all the government should do. They should not provide healthcare or perscriptions for their people and if they would get out of the way people would be able to afford them a lot easier. They should not try and tell their citizens what they can and cannot do within the confines of their own house so long as it doesnt hurt anyone else. You want to smoke pot ... go for it i wont pay for your medical coverage when you cough up a lung.

Also if the government didnt take care of certain people and everyone understood that the government would not there would be charitable organizations that would do so. And if people have more money in their pockets they would be more willing to give.

What we really need is free trade not the current managed trade protectionism. If we had fully free trade a lot of manufacturing jobs that can be done in other places would be outsourced but we would be able to retrain those workers for better jobs and then we would also get all of the stuff from the other countries cheaper as well.. No more quotas and stuff like that. Also anyone who chooses to do so should be able to opt out of social security and stop paying into it on the condition that they understand that they will never get a cent from the program.

What happens when we stop redistributing wealth through healthcare, welfare, social security and stop spending money on needless wars and imperialistic agendas? We put away the credit card and become a successful business. We really are mortgaging the future of our kids and grandkids to try and make things better today... If you think it is cruel to let kids whose parents cant afford healthcare today suffer just wait til people in America cannot afford to buy food and everyone is dieing.

America was built on Credit and now the bills are starting to come due... the answer is not to get another credit card and borrow more... it is to tighten our belts suffer a little and get out of debt. Then once we have no debt we can cut taxes and build a real economy that is built on what we make and not what we consume. At this rate America will become a third world country. McCain will get us there but he will piss off the rest of the world in the process and Obama will get us there faster. Either way we are fucked. Smile... Bend over and enjoy.

 

[Excim]

Ok... time to rant... i am 100% against redistribution of wealth and i do believe that taxes are a form of this. This was lost a long time ago but the government is a buisness (and an extremely poor run one at that). They are not supposed to make a profit or take a loss they are supposed to only take what is needed. The basic role of government is to keep it citizens safe from people out and in our country however not from oneself. That means National defense (not our current national offense) and policing within our borders.

This is all the government should do. They should not provide healthcare or perscriptions for their people and if they would get out of the way people would be able to afford them a lot easier. They should not try and tell their citizens what they can and cannot do within the confines of their own house so long as it doesnt hurt anyone else. You want to smoke pot ... go for it i wont pay for your medical coverage when you cough up a lung.

Also if the government didnt take care of certain people and everyone understood that the government would not there would be charitable organizations that would do so. And if people have more money in their pockets they would be more willing to give.

What we really need is free trade not the current managed trade protectionism. If we had fully free trade a lot of manufacturing jobs that can be done in other places would be outsourced but we would be able to retrain those workers for better jobs and then we would also get all of the stuff from the other countries cheaper as well.. No more quotas and stuff like that. Also anyone who chooses to do so should be able to opt out of social security and stop paying into it on the condition that they understand that they will never get a cent from the program.

What happens when we stop redistributing wealth through healthcare, welfare, social security and stop spending money on needless wars and imperialistic agendas? We put away the credit card and become a successful business. We really are mortgaging the future of our kids and grandkids to try and make things better today... If you think it is cruel to let kids whose parents cant afford healthcare today suffer just wait til people in America cannot afford to buy food and everyone is dieing.

America was built on Credit and now the bills are starting to come due... the answer is not to get another credit card and borrow more... it is to tighten our belts suffer a little and get out of debt. Then once we have no debt we can cut taxes and build a real economy that is built on what we make and not what we consume. At this rate America will become a third world country. McCain will get us there but he will piss off the rest of the world in the process and Obama will get us there faster. Either way we are fucked. Smile... Bend over and enjoy.

You'll never have it one way like that, but god help me I totally agree with you. If a candidate actually came out with a plan like this, you'd be fighting me for first in line on election day.

Boy would those Democrats and current Republicans have a fit... haha

 

[Sharpe]

Ok... time to rant... i am 100% against redistribution of wealth and i do believe that taxes are a form of this. This was lost a long time ago but the government is a buisness (and an extremely poor run one at that). They are not supposed to make a profit or take a loss they are supposed to only take what is needed. The basic role of government is to keep it citizens safe from people out and in our country however not from oneself. That means National defense (not our current national offense) and policing within our borders.

This is all the government should do. They should not provide healthcare or perscriptions for their people and if they would get out of the way people would be able to afford them a lot easier. They should not try and tell their citizens what they can and cannot do within the confines of their own house so long as it doesnt hurt anyone else. You want to smoke pot ... go for it i wont pay for your medical coverage when you cough up a lung.

Also if the government didnt take care of certain people and everyone understood that the government would not there would be charitable organizations that would do so. And if people have more money in their pockets they would be more willing to give.

What we really need is free trade not the current managed trade protectionism. If we had fully free trade a lot of manufacturing jobs that can be done in other places would be outsourced but we would be able to retrain those workers for better jobs and then we would also get all of the stuff from the other countries cheaper as well.. No more quotas and stuff like that. Also anyone who chooses to do so should be able to opt out of social security and stop paying into it on the condition that they understand that they will never get a cent from the program.

What happens when we stop redistributing wealth through healthcare, welfare, social security and stop spending money on needless wars and imperialistic agendas? We put away the credit card and become a successful business. We really are mortgaging the future of our kids and grandkids to try and make things better today... If you think it is cruel to let kids whose parents cant afford healthcare today suffer just wait til people in America cannot afford to buy food and everyone is dieing.

America was built on Credit and now the bills are starting to come due... the answer is not to get another credit card and borrow more... it is to tighten our belts suffer a little and get out of debt. Then once we have no debt we can cut taxes and build a real economy that is built on what we make and not what we consume. At this rate America will become a third world country. McCain will get us there but he will piss off the rest of the world in the process and Obama will get us there faster. Either way we are fucked. Smile... Bend over and enjoy.

/giant facepalm.

 

[Dejavu]

You'll never have it one way like that, but god help me I totally agree with you. If a candidate actually came out with a plan like this, you'd be fighting me for first in line on election day.

Boy would those Democrats and current Republicans have a fit... haha

i am seriously considering running or atleast feeling out running for political office in 2 years mainly because i really hate my congress people.

 

[Excim]

i am seriously considering running or atleast feeling out running for political office in 2 years mainly because i really hate my congress people.

Good luck out there in Arizona. If you can get your constituents behind you, you may not have many problems getting in. :biggrin:

Fairtax.org, anyone?

 

[Dejavu]

I dont even think there is a republican or democrat on the ticket this year we have a neo-conservative and a socialist.

 

[Mirewen]

These people who can barely support themselves, they still find time to play video games, do they not?

That's a blanket statement. That's saying that everyone who can barely support themselves play video games. You can do both. Or neither.

 

[Excim]

That's a blanket statement. That's saying that everyone who can barely support themselves play video games. You can do both. Or neither.

Duh. I was referring to you, as per Sabias' point of "isn't this persons' life more important than your money", since you mentioned you gave your time, and in the same breath mentioned people who can barely support themselves give time.

It wasn't a blanket statement. I in no way implied that every poor person plays video games. LOL

It's like this: You say people who don't have the money, give time instead. Sounds noble enough. But why don't you have money? You obviously have had time and money enough to play a video game and pay for internet access for it. Aren't those peoples lives more important than that? Sure, you could say "It's my friends/parents internet/game I don't pay for it", and then you would be a saint, giving everything you've got to those in need. And for that, I would commend you. But I don't believe you should hold everyone accountable for everyone else. It's a slippery slope.

 

[Mirewen]

I have money... and I give it and my time... I wasn't referring to myself. I'm saying people that say they can't give money because they don't have it, SHOULD give time. Geez...