the new tank

[Uzor]

RDM is a viable tank. Just not in, say, Dynamis, normal Limbus runs, and exp parties.

Hell, WHM is a "viable" tank as well, just not as useful, due to MP limitations. It takes very fast to get hate as a RDM. Sure, PLD and NIN get it fast due to Stun, but that hate is constantly reduced, all the way back to 0. It is harder to stack for that reason, and harder to reach the cap.

To be the best tank, you first need to focus on capping cumulative hate, with a mix of volatile hate. Once cumulative hate is capped, you need to cap volatile exp. RDM is the master of cumulative hate. That is why getting hate off of them is so hard.

Stun, provoke, flash, and plenty of other spells are volatile hate. Bind, Dispel, Cure, Poison etc. are cumulative hate. 3601 cumulative hate is stronger then 3600 volatile hate, but isn't reduced back to 0 at a rate of 60/sec.

 

[Darby]

And Im sure we would agree SAM's dont have trouble holding hate.

 

[jamal]

RDM is a viable tank. Just not in, say, Dynamis, normal Limbus runs, and exp parties.

Which to 90% of the userbase these are the only events they participate in. You're never going to cap hate in an experience party. You're never going to have enough time pass or damage dealt to make the degradation argument viable either.
This is a discussion again on tanking jobs. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt SE would make a release about modification of a job to only be concerned with 10% of the userbase for mobs that pop at a minimum of once every 21-24 hours.
The discussion has gone from a serious discussion on what job would take a small modification to make it a viable 'tanking job' to whether or not RDM can ever tank. Who seriously gives a fuck whether RDM can or cannot tank. If you want to talk about RDM tanking in HNM or other endgame situations, make a topic in endgame discussion so I can ignore it.
I'm not aiming this at you Uzor, I only quoted the first part of your quote to respond with my first paragraph.

 

[Lavi]

Tanking in an experience environment. This thread is "The New Tank". Not the new endgame tank. All replies should be thinking with the OP in mind. I'll laugh that all the way to sweden.
45seconds to 1min in an exp. party and your party is DEAD. Seriously, shut the fuck up. And guess what, I could answer your HNM questions. I've tanked more than you and haven't done one in over a year. WAR / PLD / NIN ALL accumulate hate faster than RDM, which is what Skaw said. Any job properly outfitted can tank an HNM. BRD's tanked Fafnir / Nid for crying out loud. A WHM/RDM 'could' tank an HNM, they have access to the EXACT same spells. Just because you 'can' do it because its been done before doesn't make it a tanking job.
A tanking job is a viable tank THROUGHOUT the gaming process.

WHM/RDM has access to Utsu? Good to know.

 

[jamal]

WHM/RDM has access to Utsu? Good to know.

Ahhh...picking quotes out of context.
WHM/RDM has access to all the hate tools Caerloc mentioned as well as Phalanx, Flash, and a HUGE magic defense bonus. PLD/NIN and NIN/DRK tanking ground, WHM/RDM tanking air (Pulling hate with Curaga III / IV). Situationally, its a tank. Just like RDM. But thanks for the comment, good to know you're still sifting through miles of text looking for one thing to disagree with.

 

[Lukas]

WHM/RDM has access to Utsu? Good to know.

I think Jamal was referring to hate tools. A WHM/RDM has an almost identical enmity arsenal at their disposal (minus convert, but with the addition of Flash and higher tier Curagas). Theoretically, they could also cap and soldify hate in the same way as a RDM... however that doesn't necessarily make them viable tanks.

I think it's about efficiency and time. If your shell's RDM can tank whatever in less time, with less risk, and without consuming more resources than your regular PLD or NIN then great. Anything outside of that and you're just doing it to show off.

 

[Excim]

RDM's can indeed tank XP mobs... if you have 15mins to blow on each kill.

Enough talk about it though. If Hellstorm feels so strongly about it, he should equip a mid level buddy of his who is a RDM and see if he can tank. At least that would answer the question for us once and for all.

 

[Lavi]

Ahhh...picking quotes out of context.
WHM/RDM has access to all the hate tools Caerloc mentioned as well as Phalanx, Flash, and a HUGE magic defense bonus. PLD/NIN and NIN/DRK tanking ground, WHM/RDM tanking air (Pulling hate with Curaga III / IV). Situationally, its a tank. Just like RDM. But thanks for the comment, good to know you're still sifting through miles of text looking for one thing to disagree with.

Irony. You nitpick everyone else, but get butthurt when someone does it to you? Out of context too? Doesn't look like it to me...

And to further a pointless debate: Right... BS. Every job has hate tools, it's part of the game to use them with their intended purposes and maintain a semblance of hate on the correct players. What you don't seem to get is the jobs that make the best end game tanks aren't just because they have great hate tools, but because they can maintain a great defense. Be it shadows, -damage, massive defense, stoneskin or phalanx and NOT ALL jobs can do that. WHM is one of them.

Purely experience(merits really), you'd chose a PLD, WAR or NIN because they'd be able to maintain a good amount of hate and not be reduced to cure bombing every 5 seconds. But then again, in merits, everyone tanks AFTER they use their weaponskill or at least should. So really, why do we need a new tank when it's first voke and then shared hate?

 

[Skaw]

Wow... Skaw telling me HNM scene isnt for me.. Thats just rich.. Lemme ask you skaw. How many Tiamats have you killed? Cerberus? Khimaira? Fuck, how many aspid, nidhoggs or Kb's? Do you have any experience whatsoever from the HNM scene or are you just talking out your ass?

It takes me about 45 seconds to 1 minute to build stable hate. I really dont fuckin get how you think im gonna stick to only dispel. RDM arsenal includes bind, blind, dispel, sleep, sleep II, Cure III, Cure IV. I can literally cast non-stop, and mp isnt an issue, these are cheap spells with high enmity gain. If i do spend alot of mp on cures, i have convert wich gives me both new chances to hate and more mp. The fact of the matter is that since brd was nerfed, rdm builds the highest and most stable hate ingame. On top of that we have fast cast. It might not turn ichi into a ni, but it isnt far off. And to top it off still, we get a nice good chunk of magic defense bonus for free. And with your vast experience from the HNM scene, i guess you know that the majority of damage you take in any HNM fight now is survey says, thats right, magic damage.


But really skaw, if my experience isnt enough for you, i suggest you run over to BG. Make a post and say you dont think rdm is a good tank, for the reason you've stated. Im pretty sure ill hear the laughs all the way to sweden. You're just clueless.

Did you even read the post, or just 5 words? Go back and try again, or shut the fuck up. I really don't care what you've done versus what I have. It must be nice up there on such a high horse. But such blatant disregard to fundamental reading makes you a moron.

Here, I'll even assist, since it's so obviously needed. Underline for the emphasis.

But if your job disparity for your linkshell members sucks that bad that you'll have no one on the better option, perhaps the HNM scene isn't for you.

 

[jamal]

Irony. You nitpick everyone else, but get butthurt when someone does it to you? Out of context too? Doesn't look like it to me...

And to further a pointless debate: Right... BS. Every job has hate tools, it's part of the game to use them with their intended purposes and maintain a semblance of hate on the correct players. What you don't seem to get is the jobs that make the best end game tanks aren't because they have great hate tools, but because they can maintain a great defense. Be it shadows, -damage, massive defense, stoneskin or phalanx and NOT ALL jobs can do that. WHM is one of them.

Purely experience(merits really), you'd chose a PLD, WAR or NIN because they'd be able to maintain a good amount of hate and not be reduced to cure bombing every 5 seconds. But then again, in merits, everyone tanks AFTER they use their weaponskill or at least should. So really, why do we need a new tank when it's first voke and then shared hate?

1. I rarely nitpick. I sometimes choose parts to focus on.
2. I said more than once in my post this is an entire gaming environment. Not just endgame. Merits are lvl 75 plus when everyone can /nin to get the benefit. Lvls 1-73 are a different story. I'm not the one who said we need a new tank, I think we have plenty, and its a playerbase issue. I think its a good discussion for all facets of the game to consider what job could have the least change to make it into a tanking class.

 

[Skaw]

I think its a good discussion for all facets of the game to consider what job could have the least change to make it into a tanking class.

Bingo. This is what needs to be focused on. You can't be like Hellstorm and demand equipment selection revamps and completely new abilities added in, just to turn one job type into another. It throws balance completely out the window.

That said, the current jobs that would pull off tanking in an EXP scenario without such drastic change are DRG and BST really. BST probably needs the least work, since the addition of Snarl. There just needs to be a more reliable way to keep a familiar cured without having to break chains waiting on Stay regeneration. The simple solution is to just allow beneficial magic to hit familiars.

 

[K. Ishitar]

well I have a question, do you think if SE did fix one of the existing jobs to tank, would you think that most people would shy away from it or not use it anymore?

since most of the player base is DD jobs(or those are the ones that seek the most on this server) they lean twoards DD jobs if a DD job was more effective with tanking and was consistently asked to do so, wouldn't the same problem still exist?

Not that I'm saying it's pointless to add another tank job but, as someone said earlier it's a playerbase issue that most don't want to tank

 

[Skaw]

well I have a question, do you think if SE did fix one of the existing jobs to tank, would you think that most people would shy away from it or not use it anymore?

since most of the player base is DD jobs(or those are the ones that seek the most on this server) they lean twoards DD jobs if a DD job was more effective with tanking and was consistently asked to do so, wouldn't the same problem still exist?

Not that I'm saying it's pointless to add another tank job but, as someone said earlier it's a playerbase issue that most don't want to tank

I think what they intend to do is give whatever job they're thinking about the option to tank, rather than completely change it and force those who have leveled it into a roll they're unfamiliar with or have no interest in. Think of it akin to how Warrior works. Most people use it for a damage job, despite it still having complete tank capabilities.

 

[Mattaru]

Skaw is most likely correct IMO. If you look at what SE has been doing to BST. Jugs have gained better Regen while not engaged, has increased the time that jugs stay out, has increased the jugs in general and has added an enmity transfer from user to jug. They just have to give BST a self-provoke honestly to make us a tank (yeah PLD doesn't have self-provoke but has a lot more hate generation). BST, over time, can build a good amount of long standing non-aggressive hate through charm on long fights (so not viable to HNM) so giving it an actual aggressive hate building tool is kind of needed, and yes a way to more effectively cure jugs.

If you ever do Campaign with a BST that can take hate, jugs can tank those mobs just fine (as can many things naturally, but it just seems natural when you pop Rampage and Snarl and everyone else hitting the mob is much safer now that Carrie is taking all the hits).

 

[Excim]

I agree with Matt. What would be a real "oh, snap!" moment, would be if they gave BST some kickass shields and some good defense armour, then they "might" be able to sub warrior for hate spike. Would a lower recast time on Snarl be necessary as well?

 

[Styfic]

Just give thf a voke of some sort. Might work...... :wacko:

 

[Lucki]

Snarl is 30 secs, just like Provoke

 

[Excim]

Snarl is 30 secs, just like Provoke

Well, BST could pretty much sub whatever they want then, eh? I could have sworn it was a 2min cooldown though. I need to go do some better research, since that would make the whole armour selection statement kind of moot.

 

[Lucki]

if SE made some adjustments to BSTs scythe rating/weaponskill access, we could go /SAM and just WS every 100TP then Snarl

 

[Lavi]

Did you even read the post, or just 5 words? Go back and try again, or shut the fuck up. I really don't care what you've done versus what I have. It must be nice up there on such a high horse. But such blatant disregard to fundamental reading makes you a moron.

Here, I'll even assist, since it's so obviously needed. Underline for the emphasis.

I wonder if he just simply ignored your weak jabs and focused on real arguments...

RDM does the job as well as any of the other traditional tanks, but of course, the vehement detestation for anything other than a backline RDM precludes them from doing anything else. Perhaps you should take it on face value since IT HAS BEEN DONE. Maybe it was done out of boredom to give the repetitive end game a new twist or maybe it was done because of the lack of viable tanks at the time of pop, but it wouldn't matter, it works. So instead of inviting a new PLD or a NIN every time you need a tank and you're short one, you can always count on a RDM who is stable and reliable if that's the case. Because really, a matter of convenience is all it comes down to.