Thief just some minor gripes... (A Vang Inspired Post)

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I understand why THF's need haste. I haste my thf constantly.. The only thing that I don't understand is if THF's think that they need haste first over the tank, if the tank is a PLD. And I'm being serious - so don't flame me.

Thanks for your post Phraust. My fiancee is a thf, so I knew pretty much all of this already - but its a great primer for people.. anyone who doesnt know SATA at this level is a tool though, that shit is unacceptable.
 
O....M....G.....

Holy, crap, omg, I think I'm gonna faint. Being a Thf seems almost like being in AA, You thought you were alone in the world, then some guys stands up: "Hi, my name in Phraust...", "Hi Phraust...".

Helly hell, my fingers where twitching as I read this post and had bad flash-backs from the past 64 levels... Truely, un-deniably, perfect. I've sat down many times to write all the same things down but alway timed out, I'm so glad you wrote this man. The only problem is, I see Pld, Rngs, and Thf's acctually reading and understanding it, or even giving two turds. Why? Not cause people are mean, but because it takes too much. Too much effort, too much thinking, because us Thf's are "Too damn demanding".

Well no freakin shit...

You let me know when you can find a Drk, Drg, or War that thinks they can sub /Thf and keep up with the best of us. Cause if you can, don't invite please, I'd rather SC with a Rng anyway. That was the only thing I wanted to touch on the Phraust didn't. The imposter Hate controllers. You know the ones. That Drk that doesn't think twice about SATAing onto the Rng, or the Drg that think's he can SA+Penta and then just Jump to shed Hate, then watchs the Mob chew on the Whm's head for alittle bit like a pitpull on a chew-toy.

There is NO replacing a good Thief!!!!!

I can't say this enough.

But over all, for those of you that even think about inviteing a Thf, go back, and re-read that post again. Please, for the love of all the Exp in the world, read that post again.

P.S. You still use Snipers Phraust!?! Wth, I figured you would have out-grown them by now... They were cool until about 50, But you shouldn't need them anymore man lol. Try going with florites or somthing, Dex helps your melee Acc too :P
 
O....M.....G.....

Holy, crap, omg, I think I'm gonna faint. Being a Thf seems almost like being in AA, You thought you were alone in the world, then some guys stands up: "Hi, my name in Phraust...", "Hi Phraust...".

Helly hell, my fingers where twitching as I read this post and had bad flash-backs from the past 64 levels... Truely, un-deniably, perfect. I've sat down many times to write all the same things down but alway timed out, I'm so glad you wrote this man. The only problem is, I see Pld, Rngs, and Thf's acctually reading and understanding it, or even giving two turds. Why? Not cause people are mean, but because it takes too much. Too much effort, too much thinking, because us Thf's are "Too damn demanding".

Well no freakin shit...

You let me know when you can find a Drk, Drg, or War that thinks they can sub /Thf and keep up with the best of us. Cause if you can, don't invite please, I'd rather SC with a Rng anyway. That was the only thing I wanted to touch on the Phraust didn't. The imposter Hate controllers. You know the ones. That Drk that doesn't think twice about SATAing onto the Rng, or the Drg that think's he can SA+Penta and then just Jump to shed Hate, then watchs the Mob chew on the Whm's head for alittle bit like a pitpull on a chew-toy.

There is NO replacing a good Thief!!!!!

I can't say this enough.

But over all, for those of you that even think about inviteing a Thf, go back, and re-read that post again. Please, for the love of all the Exp in the world, read that post again.

P.S. You still use Snipers Phraust!?! Wth, I figured you would have out-grown them by now... They were cool until about 50, But you shouldn't need them anymore man lol. Try going with florites or somthing, Dex helps your melee Acc too :P
 
Ok one last question for thief (for my information)

If one person in your party is either a thief (past 15) or someone has thief subbed (past 15), will it help the party drops if you have additional party members with a thief main job past 15 or thief sub past lvl 15 ?

Thank you for the info (I think it will not help drops but I want to be sure)
 
I personaly like THFs in the PT, however post 60 I hear they run into a real problem that they are complaining about. A good PLD who forms a good PT does not need a THF for hate Transfer. He is just that good. So THFs tend to get invited to the parties that have issues with hate. If they have seriuse hate issues they probaly have issues like not knowing how to MB and the like.

Also I do try and Haste the main tank first followed by the THF then DRK/SAM/MNK followed by DRG and the rest. My problem is Haste is alot of MP with a fairly long cooldown so hasting the entire partycan take awhile. Normaly I splite the duty up with the PTs RDM but sometimes said RDM does not have haste... I usualy bang my head against te desk at that point.
 
Jezza said:
I'll let go of my haste cycle...sigh..

Oh, and I am lvl 60+..btw..heh...but it seems anyone worth anything is in a static, and in the pick up parties I get....

I'd be better off crafting :evil:
Click to expand...

(word)
 
Re: O....M....G.....

Deathdealer said:
P.S. You still use Snipers Phraust!?! Wth, I figured you would have out-grown them by now... They were cool until about 50, But you shouldn't need them anymore man lol. Try going with florites or somthing, Dex helps your melee Acc too :P
Click to expand...

This is what I have on me when i Exp:

1) Cermet Kukri +1

2) Hornetneedle

3) Comet Tail

4) Emperor's Hairpin

5) Peacock Charm

6) Spike Earring

7) Spike Earring

8) Scorpion Harness

9) Custom F Gloves

10) Sniper's Ring

11) Sniper's Ring

12) Amamet's Mantle +1

13) Life Belt

14) Bravo's Subligar

15) Marine F Boots

16) Warp Cudgel

17) Meat Chiefkabobs x 12

18) Squid Sushi +1 x 12

19) Pear Au Lait

20) Persikos Au Lait

21) X-Potion

22) X-Potion

23) Icarus Wing (x 1-12)

24) Silent Oil x 12

25) Skeleton Keys x 12

26) Shihei x 99

27) Shinobi-tabi x 99

28) Fire Crystals x 12

29) Fire Crystals x 12

30) Acid Bolts

31) Bloody Bolts

32) Bloody Bolts

33) Grace Ring Flourites are for pussies =P

34) Grace Ring

35) Royal Knight's Belt +2

36) Genin Earring

37) Drone Earring

38) Spike Necklace

39) Heavy Crossbow +1

40) Rabbit Charm

41) Rogue's Coulotte

42) Rogue's Poulaines

43) Alacrity Ring

44) Alacrity Ring

45) Lucky Egg

46) Wild Rarab's Tail

47) Four Leaf Mandragora Bud

48) Three Leaf Mandragora Bud

Depending on what I am doing, I have diferent stats, +25 Attack +45 accuracy for TP, +25 Dex for SA, +26 Agi For TA, etc...

Trust me... I know what a Flourite ring is, and what Dex does... =P
(I know you were stabbing at me for fun, just thought I'd reduce your ego to a smoldering stain. =] j/k... or am I?)
 
Rylend said:
Ok one last question for thief (for my information)

If one person in your party is either a thief (past 15) or someone has thief subbed (past 15), will it help the party drops if you have additional party members with a thief main job past 15 or thief sub past lvl 15 ?

Thank you for the info (I think it will not help drops but I want to be sure)
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Treasure hUnter to the best of anyone's knowledge does not stack.

I did however notice an Interestig Phenomenon a long time ago, that I havent tested since:

When I was the Sole TH II Drops dropped like Crazy, When there was another THief in the Group that was post 45, Drops again Continued to drop very well, Once somone with TH I entered the group Drops slowed to a crawl, when they left the drops increased again. I have no Imperical data, but I think that TH I Takes Precidence over TH II.
 
This is a great post, Phraust.

As a Paladin, I laughed at the guy who wanted to SATA off the rng.
I love SATA, and I Love Thfs. Makes my job ALOT easier.
 
Re: O....M....G.....

Deathdealer said:
P.S. You still use Snipers Phraust!?! Wth, I figured you would have out-grown them by now... They were cool until about 50, But you shouldn't need them anymore man lol. Try going with florites or somthing, Dex helps your melee Acc too :P
Click to expand...

They are the best rings for melee in the game regarldess of level. 20dex = 10 acc and you cannot get that from any ring set '-'... As phraust said it is best to switch out your equipment according to what you are doing at the moment; no melee will ever outgrow snipers unless they can afford snipers+1.

On another note, someone brought up WS stats so i am gonna post a link and explain the concept since its in japanese and show you the stats of DE and Shark (the two mentioned).

URL here (note there is a translated version of this on FFXIonline somewhere, but i am too lazy to find it, and can translate it for you anyway :p besides, his numbers are not the same as the source '-';; )

So, basically the Website explains that WS DMG is defined by a set of factors devided into two catigories.

Base DMG: your str vs the mobs VIT, your TP (which difines a multiplier), your weapons D, and how many hits you land determine this part of the dmg.

Variable/bonus dmg: spesific stats are correlated to spesific WSs and along with your level effect this aspect of WS dmg.

Frankly... i do not understand the formulas, perhaps someone more adept at japanese can explain, but i do understand the basic stats the author says are most important to the WSs...

WS NAME: Shark Bite
Multiplier determined by TP: 100% -> 2.00 200%-> unknown 300% -> 3.00
Total hits possible: 2
Contributing Stats to Variable Damage: Dex (accounts for 50%)

WS NAME: Dancing Edge
Multiplier determined by TP: 1.00 regardless of TP percent, rather TP determined accuracy of WS.
Total Hits Possible: 5
Contributing stats to variable damage: DEX and CHR, this source does not have % but i recall another stated it was 50/50.

in my personal experiance Shark's dmg is grealy effected by STR, but that might be b/c i am a mithra and we have such crappy STR to begin with... so rising it will help out in the base damage bit '-'. the site is really interesting, and people in my LS did a few tests on their WSs to see what would happen and noticed a difference. Just thought i would add this since people were talking about it ^^; the site also explains MB bonus, but i did not read it b/c it does not apply to me ><
 
My bro is a 65 Mithra THF. He went from the +3 Dex rings to snipers and says he went form a 30%ish hit rate to close tp 60-70%. He says the difrence in a multi-hit WS like Dancing edge is noticable to say the least.
 
You'll see that in ranger PT post 60, the tank will often provoke first. This is to maximize the assassin ability (as Yanzi pointed out), AND to manage MP.

Toramas and Raptors are the some of the fastest mobs in the game. They will eat your ranger/nin's shadows before he can return to camp. If the tank doesn't provoke first on these mobs, your RNG's HP will go to yellow or red really quick, while SATA is being setup. The WHM will have to then expend MP to cure the RNG.

Moreover, when fighting hard-hitting mobs, like Infernal weapons, Aura statues, at Lv70+, I always provoke first when I tank. And I recommend all other tanks to do the same. Even with a THF in PT.
 
in a good pt, TASA set up literally takes no longer then it does to target the mob and press ctrl+a... the thf and tank are already lined up, all the puller has to do is run past them to his spot. when he announces the pull, if it is a rng or someone other then the thf, the thf primes his TASA... its really not that hard, I have done it from both ends (as tank and as thf that is).

Furthermore, at least in my experience, even with the assassin ability it is better to TASA together if you can because the total dmg of TASA is more then TA and SA done alone and then added together, AND it puts more hate on the tank.

Let’s just say for arguments sake that TA on some mob does 200 and SA alone does 200-250... that totals to 400-450. TASA would be 500-520 on said mob (this are realistic figures on flies btw). Not only is there 50-70 more dmg, but 500+ dmg worth of hate was given to the tank rather then only 200. If you want I will do a test and post the results.

Honest to god... if you voke first 100% of the time you are wasting the thfs abilities, if they are skilled, and should have just gotten some other job. The major thing that Assassin did for us was boost our WS dmg so that we could kinda compare to the other melee classes, not give you all a card Blanche to shit on our job by taking away one of our major functions which would be effective hate control. The fact that it has 100% accuracy now is simply a nice safeguard so that if the tank had to voke first, or if you can use TA in the middle of battle, you have something to do with it.

Also, on a side note, and this may be because I am a Mithra Thief but… as long as I remembered to refresh my utsu before pull I never had a problem keeping blinks up during it.. . but thief has A+ in evade… and I donno about rng I am too tired to look it up :P
 
Nasya said:
Let’s just say for arguments sake that TA on some mob does 200 and SA alone does 200-250... that totals to 400-450. TASA would be 500-520 on said mob (this are realistic figures on flies btw). Not only is there 50-70 more dmg, but 500+ dmg worth of hate was given to the tank rather then only 200. If you want I will do a test and post the results.
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Since it was Just for arguement's sake, I will let it slide, but the numbers in my world look like this:

Bare Sneack Attack Damage: 180-220
Bare Trick attack damage: 150-180
Sneak+Trick Attack Damage: 330-350
Trick Attack + Dancing Edge: 330-440
Sneak attack + Dancing Edge: 350-460
Sneak+Trick +Dancing Edge: 500-700

But if I didn't macro in my SA & TA gear, the separate SA and TA would be equal to a stacked SATA.

Accuracy Is garunteed to be at least +30, I wear my Scorpion Harness at all times, and macroed in on Dancing Edge my Life Belt, and Peacock Charm, Sacrificing 5 Dex, 5 Str, & 2 Agi. But I have found Maximum Damage at this Mixture of Dex/Accuracy.

Keep in Mind these numbers are from a Raw non-debuffed Processionaire, at lvl 63, as well as being rounded. So if they seem low, they are...

So you can see though, with my SATA gear, I do 330-350 Damage, And when I split up the two abilities, and add their Damage I get a range of about 330-400. SO yes, the over all damage increases, but when you look at it in terms of Hate, would you rather have a full 350 Damage worth of Hate put on the tank? Or a measly 150?

Besides that, if your Ranger is getting hit while setting up SATA, then you need to choke it up and admit one of three things:

1) Your Ranger Doesn't know how to pull, and is getting hit way too much.(1 or 2 hits is Normal)
2) The Paladin is being a Moron and doesn't know how to Set up quickly.
3) Your Thief Is slow on the Settup, or Doesn't Prime his/her SATA before the fight.

In any of those cases, there are a lot more problems with the group then just the ranger getting hit, which means that SATA is that much more essential.
Granted, Raptors do move fast. But I am still yet to Have any issues with them in a good group. Most of the time, the ranger could pull it, settup and fire off a Sidewinder/Slug Shot without getting hit at all.

Here are some pulling ad settup tips:

Pulling (Logistics):
1) When your fight is about to finish, your Puller shoudl be readying his/her Utsusemi.
2) When your Puller goes out, they should be Announcing what they are pulling.
3) Your puller should Know What MP Decay is for the group and Pull accordingly.
4) Your Puller should almost always Pull at Maximum Distance!
5) Report your TP, and Monster in your Pulling macro:
» Example: /p <call14> >>> <t> <<< TP = <tp>.

Pulling (mechanical):
Ranger:
1) Party Settup:
»Your Mages should be Clustered.
»Your Tank should be across from the mages, with their back to the direction of the pull.
» Tank should Use F8 Right When the Mob Passes them to Target.
» Tank should lock on and Folow Target Imediately.
» Thief should Target Mob and Follow behind tank and be Primed with SATA.
2) Use your controls properly!
» Target Monster.
» Switch to first Person View.
» Use your Pulling Macro.
» While you are readying your ranged attack and are in first person view you can turn around without Disrupting Your aim.
» Run to camp.
» Look at Radar.
» When you see the mob has passed the Tank Hit * on the number pad. This will Whip your Character aroud and lock on for Settup.
» Tank anf Thief Shoudl Be lined up.
» Hit Ctrl+A
» Hit your Weaponskill Macro.
» Hit your Utsusemi again.

For a Thief Puller With Secondary Voke:
1) Party Settup:
»Your Mages should be Clustered.
»Your Tank should be in front of the the mages, with their back to the mages, facing Direction of Pull.
»Your Voker should be across from the mages, with their back to the direction of the pull, Facing the tank.
» Voker should Use F8 Right When the Mob Passes them to Target.
» Voker Vokes, engages and fires weaponskill.
2) Use your controls properly!
» Target Monster.
» Switch to first Person View.
» Use your Pulling Macro.
» While you are readying your ranged attack and are in first person view you can turn around without Disrupting Your aim.
» Run to camp.
» Look at Radar.
» When you see the mob has passed the Voker Hit * on the number pad. This will Whip your Character aroud and lock on for Settup.
» Tank anf Thief Should Be lined up.
» Hit Ctrl+A
» Hit your Weaponskill Macro.
» Hit your Utsusemi again.

All of this, when properly settup takes only a couple of seconds. Don't Be lazy, and Stop coming up with lame excuses. Or please, if you don't want to use a thief to thier full potential, don't waste thier time or yours, and don't invite them. You can do your dance with your crab and burn all the MP and Job abilities you want.

(Anyone notice how I am using PLD in all my examples? Reason: I never have these kinds of issues with Ninjas...)
 
Phraust said:
Besides that, if your Ranger is getting hit while setting up SATA, then you need to choke it up and admit one of three things:

1) Your Ranger Doesn't know how to pull, and is getting hit way too much.(1 or 2 hits is Normal)
Click to expand...

Faust, try pulling raptors in Valley of Sorrows and see if your ranger doesn't get him before he return to camp.
 
man, i remember trying to pull those raptors and cats...
that was the only time my evasion skill was ever capped. weapons and statues helped me some, but not as much as those buggers.

if you've actually put in the mind numbing hours it takes to get thf 70+, i'd say go thf/war for all the nice attk and str boosts.
 
Villarel said:
Phraust said:
Besides that, if your Ranger is getting hit while setting up SATA, then you need to choke it up and admit one of three things:

1) Your Ranger Doesn't know how to pull, and is getting hit way too much.(1 or 2 hits is Normal)
Click to expand...

Faust, try pulling raptors in Valley of Sorrows and see if your ranger doesn't get him before he return to camp.
Click to expand...

You do realize I am lvl 64 right?
I have Partied with Numerous rangers, and Pulled myself.
And I can tell you, is is Very Possible, and very easy to do.
Most of the time what I see is a Ranger pulling when they are practically right next to the mob... And gettig whacked all the way to camp. If you Pull at Maximum distance, and remembered to Cast Utsusemi befor pull you should be fine. Same thing Goes for Toramas. I have pulled about a million of these things... And I don;t get hit unless I am trying to cap my evade =D

and it's Phraust, or Frost, or even Fraust, Frawst, or Phrawst. You notice there's an 'R' in my name right ^.~

The only Rangers I see get hit are the ones that are complete idiots. You know the Ones that use Axes Instead of Archer/Hawker's Knives(Francheska Excluded). and Have barely any Additional Ranged Accuracy gear etc...

You people just haven't been with a good thief... I can understand this. But remember as well... Unfortunately a thief is only as good as his/her group...

I am not trying to write an end all way to group with thieves, If you want to Gimp one of your group members and cut down the damage output of your group because other members are incompitent, fine. But read the comments in this thread and know that most of the "OMG Thank you Phraust!" Posts are from thieves. There has been an unspoken Frustration growing anmongst us. And it's stemming from Jack asses thinking we do crap damage, when our damage output is halved by trigger happy voking Paladins, over zealous White mages, Incompitent Rangers, Over Nuking Black mages, and Dragoons that can't pull hate.

More Hate Control = More Damage output!
Better organized Parties = More damage output!
Mor Damage Output = Less time fighting!
Less Time Fighting = Less MP, food, and Ammunition Used!
Less MP, food and ammunition used Used = more chains!
More Chains = more Exp!
More Exp = Faster Leveling!

I Know how to Maximize my Job. It just sucks that my Potential is Dictated by how compitent/cooperative/communicative others in my group are. Thus the reason for this Post. I am sick and fucking tired of having to be gimp/hold back because people after 34 levels+ still don't know how to work with others! You you dipshits even know what a Group is? If you wanted to do your thing, go solo. If you can't make it to camp without getting hit, got practice. If you can't line up straight behind the mob in a timely fassion, Don't invite a thief. If you can't Fucntion as a group that Maximized all the group members' capabilities, then you are a fool.

Thin kabout it, if you know there are gorups out there making 7,000-8,000 exp/hr. And you are gimping out at a mere 3,000 exp/hr. You are doing something wrong. And it really sucks watching a good group EXP right next to you and everyone is doing everything right, and meanwhile, my group has a stubbern paladin, a gimp Rng, and bad support crawling through exp because they refuse to do things right. But "Hey, it's just a game." right? Yeah, you're right, it's just a game. And I like to have fun, but I don't find it fun when I have to put up with shit that should be common Knowledge by now... It's like trying to play Basketball when you and one guy are playing and running the court while the other team member refuse to run because "Hey, it's just a game."
 
Just got done reading through the thread and I couldn't agree more with what Phraust's said.

A good THF and a coperative tank means a party that everyone can go all-out. A bad THF and/or bad tank is a party I (or the RNG/DRK/BLM) end up with the hate in, and we all know how much WHMs love healing back the 800-ish damage taken from tanking any part of the fight because SATA got screwed up by someone.

I've got some experience as THF, so I know how simple the whole thing is if everyone would just quit moving around for a better angle or some shit like that.

I have a simple policy as THF:
When I hit SATA, for the love of god, get lined up. You were lined up when I hit the macro, why can't you stay that way? And when I move in to SATA the tank, and you're in my way, you get a warning and 5 seconds to move before I hit SATA, and then, well... Ain't my fault you were in the way.
 
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