Tiny Gripe 2.0

[Nolan]

ummm, Me being a 75 Dragoon i can definetly say that i've outdamaged all the so called "DD" jobs on many occasions (especially monks and wars). People just seem to automatically shove drgs off to the side, but we not gonna talk about that right now. From 73-75 i've been invited to nothing but cannon parties and they have had all kinds of jobs in it. At 73 i was invited to an all 75 merit party and i performed admirably. A cannon can consist of any job that can contribute to fast kills, plain and simple. If you wanna get particular about drg drk and sam not being able to cannon. I was in a cannon with drg, drk, sam, nin, rdm, whm that just completely owned every damn mob in the freakin mire (imps, flies, and those fat things that look like my sister). We ran from north to south, east to west completly destroying all that was in our path. So stop with your classifications on how things are supposed to be. Thats how we ruin the game when we get all specific on shit and start to be biased against people that like to get creative.

Oh and about drg sam and drk not being DDs. I have never seen anyone out damage a nicely equipped samurai/thf doing tachi: gekko for 1300+. Now i do admit, drg damage can be lacking in the WS department at times, but like i said, i have out damaged all DDs jobs at times during my gaming. Add dragoon regular hits and WS damage to the wyverns own reg hits and WS damage and you can't tell me that is not DD. Drks have the amazing absorb TP ability that can (if used correctly) be almost as good at meditate. Each job has its own quality when it comes to damage dealing.

 

[Rannoch]

Loldrg

 

[Shyrra]

ummm, Me being a 75 Dragoon i can definetly say that i've outdamaged all the so called "DD" jobs on many occasions (especially monks and wars). People just seem to automatically shove drgs off to the side, but we not gonna talk about that right now. From 73-75 i've been invited to nothing but cannon parties and they have had all kinds of jobs in it. At 73 i was invited to an all 75 merit party and i performed admirably. A cannon can consist of any job that can contribute to fast kills, plain and simple. If you wanna get particular about drg drk and sam not being able to cannon. I was in a cannon with drg, drk, sam, nin, rdm, whm that just completely owned every damn mob in the freakin mire (imps, flies, and those fat things that look like my sister). We ran from north to south, east to west completly destroying all that was in our path. So stop with your classifications on how things are supposed to be. Thats how we ruin the game when we get all specific on shit and start to be biased against people that like to get creative.

Oh and about drg sam and drk not being DDs. I have never seen anyone out damage a nicely equipped samurai/thf doing tachi: gekko for 1300+. Now i do admit, drg damage can be lacking in the WS department at times, but like i said, i have out damaged all DDs jobs at times during my gaming. Add dragoon regular hits and WS damage to the wyverns own reg hits and WS damage and you can't tell me that is not DD. Drks have the amazing absorb TP ability that can (if used correctly) be almost as good at meditate. Each job has its own quality when it comes to damage dealing.

Refer to my post... a pimped out of ANY job can often outdamage a WAR or MNK, because most people are gimp as fuck. Outdamaging a WAR is one thing.. Outdamaging a pimpass WAR is quite another.

 

[Nolan]

Loldrg

There is a linkshell named Loldrg. I was wondering why anyone would name their linkshell that. its like your laughing at yourself.

 

[Mirewen]

Refer to my post... a pimped out of ANY job can often outdamage a WAR or MNK, because most people are gimp as fuck. Outdamaging a WAR is one thing.. Outdamaging a pimpass WAR is quite another.

This is true, some people slide by on their job alone. People will almost always invite a WAR over a DRG (you don't know what their gear is like from a /seacom). I love DRG :/

 

[Shyrra]

This is true, some people slide by on their job alone. People will almost always invite a WAR over a DRG (you don't know what their gear is like from a /seacom). I love DRG :/

I'd take Eleibfrid in my party over 90% of the WARs out there. (From a max DDing standpoint. Otherwise he'd always be in my pt D

 

[phishn]

Refer to my post... a pimped out of ANY job can often outdamage a WAR or MNK, because most people are gimp as fuck. Outdamaging a WAR is one thing.. Outdamaging a pimpass WAR is quite another.

Yes this is true, fully pimped out WAR has the potential to outdamage a fully pimped out [insert job here] assuming playstyle and skill matches gear. I have merited once with fully pimped out WAR's just throwing up a flag for a merit party on SAM and BRD through 115 merits. The one's I do see meriting are usually with endgame LS members, statics, friends who are fully pimped out and don't toss up a flag to seek for merits. The context of this thread seems to be driven by pickup type parties. The point I'm making is that don't discount a SAM, DRK, DRG in a random, LFG merit party unless you have read their search comments to know what they have to offer. It's been said that most don't strive to fully pimp out their WAR's, MNK's, NIN's with top notch gear and full merits. The other DD's who have worked hard for their pimp gear, full merits, to run even and break ahead of your average WAR's, MNK's, NIN's(which you generally get in these pickup type parties) should not be discounted.

 

[Shyrra]

Yes this is true, fully pimped out WAR has the potential to outdamage a fully pimped out [insert job here] assuming playstyle and skill matches gear. I have merited once with fully pimped out WAR's just throwing up a flag for a merit party on SAM and BRD through 115 merits. The one's I do see meriting are usually with endgame LS members, statics, friends who are fully pimped out and don't toss up a flag to seek for merits. The context of this thread seems to be driven by pickup type parties. The point I'm making is that don't discount a SAM, DRK, DRG in a random, LFG merit party unless you have read their search comments to know what they have to offer. It's been said that most don't strive to fully pimp out their WAR's, MNK's, NIN's with top notch gear and full merits. The other DD's who have worked hard for their pimp gear, full merits, to run even and break ahead of your average WAR's, MNK's, NIN's(which you generally get in these pickup type parties) should not be discounted.

Eh, I'm just trying to show people why these jobs are considered the main DD jobs.. The jobs are simply capable of doing more damage, that's all there is to it.

 

[Legomyeggo]

ummm, Me being a 75 Dragoon i can definetly say that i've outdamaged all the so called "DD" jobs on many occasions (especially monks and wars). People just seem to automatically shove drgs off to the side, but we not gonna talk about that right now. From 73-75 i've been invited to nothing but cannon parties and they have had all kinds of jobs in it. At 73 i was invited to an all 75 merit party and i performed admirably. A cannon can consist of any job that can contribute to fast kills, plain and simple. If you wanna get particular about drg drk and sam not being able to cannon. I was in a cannon with drg, drk, sam, nin, rdm, whm that just completely owned every damn mob in the freakin mire (imps, flies, and those fat things that look like my sister). We ran from north to south, east to west completly destroying all that was in our path. So stop with your classifications on how things are supposed to be. Thats how we ruin the game when we get all specific on shit and start to be biased against people that like to get creative.

Oh and about drg sam and drk not being DDs. I have never seen anyone out damage a nicely equipped samurai/thf doing tachi: gekko for 1300+. Now i do admit, drg damage can be lacking in the WS department at times, but like i said, i have out damaged all DDs jobs at times during my gaming. Add dragoon regular hits and WS damage to the wyverns own reg hits and WS damage and you can't tell me that is not DD. Drks have the amazing absorb TP ability that can (if used correctly) be almost as good at meditate. Each job has its own quality when it comes to damage dealing.

They were all gimps. Run versus someone that has even mediocre gear, and get your shit owned for free.

 

[Artem]

Yes this is true, fully pimped out WAR has the potential to outdamage a fully pimped out [insert job here] assuming playstyle and skill matches gear. I have merited once with fully pimped out WAR's just throwing up a flag for a merit party on SAM and BRD through 115 merits. The one's I do see meriting are usually with endgame LS members, statics, friends who are fully pimped out and don't toss up a flag to seek for merits. The context of this thread seems to be driven by pickup type parties. The point I'm making is that don't discount a SAM, DRK, DRG in a random, LFG merit party unless you have read their search comments to know what they have to offer. It's been said that most don't strive to fully pimp out their WAR's, MNK's, NIN's with top notch gear and full merits. The other DD's who have worked hard for their pimp gear, full merits, to run even and break ahead of your average WAR's, MNK's, NIN's(which you generally get in these pickup type parties) should not be discounted.

he has a point

when was the last time you saw a pimped out war/nin/mnk seek?

 

[Khajit]

he has a point

when was the last time you saw a pimped out war/nin/mnk seek?

Decidence goes lfp.

 

[Stouter]

The point falls apart here though:

The point I'm making is that don't discount a SAM, DRK, DRG in a random, LFG merit party unless you have read their search comments to know what they have to offer.

1 - Most people won't use search comments, 90% of those that do use them to say what runic portals they have, and maybe what SJ's they have available.

2 - There's not enough room on a search comment to fully explain your character.

3 - When I read comments where people list gear/stats/merits I normally avoid them, past experience with this makes me think the player is a douche, or likely a skill-less gilbuyer.

 

[Soujiro]

I think the majority of the ppl talking have never been in a true cannon party, and don't understand the dynamics of it. To me, it's pretty simple, in a cannon pt everyone bounces hate around while taking minimal or ideally zero damage. You don't have a tank like you do 1-74, if you have a nin/war or war/nin, they should only have to do an initial Provoke, then ideally the mob should be dead by the time the 30 sec timer on the JA is back up.

Now according to my definition, if you don't have utsusemi, then you aren't going to fit in a cannon style party. A good nin in a cannon pt does not wear evasion gear, they are full on dmg, so they aren't going to be evading shit hardly. You rely on your pt members to bounce hate, blinking off the damage from the mob. This means all you with jobs that can't or refuse to sub nin will not work in this type of party. Only by sharing hate and blinking off damage, along with killing the mobs fast, will allow you to reach the high chains. All of you claiming about how awesome your damage is, that is only part of the job, if you can't take hate without being a constant mp sponge, then you are essentially useless to the party. Might as well get an overnuking blm to join in your "cannon", they can drop a 2k nuke on the mob but when they get hate they are going to be shredded. Once again to make this perfectly clear, if you can't take hate, which in a cannon you are required to do regularly, and not be a mp sponge while having hate, then you are not filling your role in a cannon.

That being said, i do disagree with some of you guys job requirements to be in a cannon. With Hasso now, a well equipped sam can pull off sam/nin and pull just as much weight as a similarly equipped and merited nin/war, mnk/nin or war/nin. I have seen it personally, as well as done it myself. Phishn is one of the best sam's i've ever done anything with, and i'd bet he could hang with any job til you get to ebody ridill war tier. I also know that he is not the norm, having partied with alot of other sam's over the years, so i can see where some of the ppl here are making generalizations. Take the guy above talking about sam/thf lol. It's not 2005, thought everyone knew that sam/thf is for HNM's and gods only for hate control.

As far as drk's go, no i've never been in a cannon pt with a drk that could meet the criteria i have set for being in a cannon pt. Does that mean there aren't any out there? No, i'm sure there are ones that could pull it off, just that i haven't seen any with my own eyes. Sure you can do killer dmg as drk/war or drk/sam, but that's only part of it like i said before. Also toss in the fact that even if you were to go drk/nin so you can mitigate your dmg from mob when you pull hate, using Souleater itself causes you to be a drain on the healer's mp, and you haven't even been touched by the mob yet. And please don't say that you can just Drain it back, cause then you will more than likely have too much hate built up so that it won't get bounced off of you, and you wind up holding the mob the entire fight, or until you are dead.

I guess the point i'm trying to make is that there are alot of jobs and/or individuals that can fill the DD role in a cannon pt, they just have to have the right equips/merits/playstyle. I'm sure there are drg's that could pull it off out there, i've never merited with any though. Probably any job could, i've even seen bst/nin that could hang with everyone else and pull their weight. The thing that's important though is how much xp/hr you are doing. If you are doing 5k-10k/hr, chances are you aren't in a cannon, or if you are, something or someone is fucked up. When you're getting 25k+/hr and your pt is full of drk/war, drg/war, mnk/drk, sam/thf, and war/drg as your melees, please let the rest of us know where that camp is. Until then i'll stick with my definition of what a cannon is.

edit in: I forgot one of the most important reasons why cannons work. Write this down, it's pretty complicated: When you reach 100 TP you WS immediatly! No waiting for tank to "establish hate", no waiting on your gimped /thf SATA timers, no dancing around the mob to see who you can plant SATA on, no waiting on your SC partner to get 100 TP lol. Pretty simple really, and having Utsusemi, you can do this at 100% mob hp or 10%, doesn't make a difference at all. Can you WS as drk/sam as soon as the mob is at camp and not expect to be laying down on the ground at the end of the fight? It's been known for a while by most good players that holding onto TP only hurts your max damage output. WS'ing with impunity is what makes cannons so fast and MP efficient. Sorry if i am sounding condescending, but really guys, this isn't rocket science.

 

[Dowzer]

I think the majority of the ppl talking have never been in a true cannon party, and don't understand the dynamics of it. To me, it's pretty simple, in a cannon pt everyone bounces hate around while taking minimal or ideally zero damage. You don't have a tank like you do 1-74, if you have a nin/war or war/nin, they should only have to do an initial Provoke, then ideally the mob should be dead by the time the 30 sec timer on the JA is back up.

Now according to my definition, if you don't have utsusemi, then you aren't going to fit in a cannon style party. A good nin in a cannon pt does not wear evasion gear, they are full on dmg, so they aren't going to be evading shit hardly. You rely on your pt members to bounce hate, blinking off the damage from the mob. This means all you with jobs that can't or refuse to sub nin will not work in this type of party. Only by sharing hate and blinking off damage, along with killing the mobs fast, will allow you to reach the high chains. All of you claiming about how awesome your damage is, that is only part of the job, if you can't take hate without being a constant mp sponge, then you are essentially useless to the party. Might as well get an overnuking blm to join in your "cannon", they can drop a 2k nuke on the mob but when they get hate they are going to be shredded. Once again to make this perfectly clear, if you can't take hate, which in a cannon you are required to do regularly, and not be a mp sponge while having hate, then you are not filling your role in a cannon.

That being said, i do disagree with some of you guys job requirements to be in a cannon. With Hasso now, a well equipped sam can pull off sam/nin and pull just as much weight as a similarly equipped and merited nin/war, mnk/nin or war/nin. I have seen it personally, as well as done it myself. Phishn is one of the best sam's i've ever done anything with, and i'd bet he could hang with any job til you get to ebody ridill war tier. I also know that he is not the norm, having partied with alot of other sam's over the years, so i can see where some of the ppl here are making generalizations. Take the guy above talking about sam/thf lol. It's not 2005, thought everyone knew that sam/thf is for HNM's and gods only for hate control.

As far as drk's go, no i've never been in a cannon pt with a drk that could meet the criteria i have set for being in a cannon pt. Does that mean there aren't any out there? No, i'm sure there are ones that could pull it off, just that i haven't seen any with my own eyes. Sure you can do killer dmg as drk/war or drk/sam, but that's only part of it like i said before. Also toss in the fact that even if you were to go drk/nin so you can mitigate your dmg from mob when you pull hate, using Souleater itself causes you to be a drain on the healer's mp, and you haven't even been touched by the mob yet. And please don't say that you can just Drain it back, cause then you will more than likely have too much hate built up so that it won't get bounced off of you, and you wind up holding the mob the entire fight, or until you are dead.

I guess the point i'm trying to make is that there are alot of jobs and/or individuals that can fill the DD role in a cannon pt, they just have to have the right equips/merits/playstyle. I'm sure there are drg's that could pull it off out there, i've never merited with any though. Probably any job could, i've even seen bst/nin that could hang with everyone else and pull their weight. The thing that's important though is how much xp/hr you are doing. If you are doing 5k-10k/hr, chances are you aren't in a cannon, or if you are, something or someone is fucked up. When you're getting 25k+/hr and your pt is full of drk/war, drg/war, mnk/drk, sam/thf, and war/drg as your melees, please let the rest of us know where that camp is. Until then i'll stick with my definition of what a cannon is.

This post wins the thread.

 

[Blazeoffury]

Take the guy above talking about sam/thf lol. It's not 2005, thought everyone knew that sam/thf is for HNM's and gods only for hate control.

Not only is sam/thf not viable for the "cannon" party, but he was also talking about spike damage, and not even that high of spike damage at that.. In the Mire any sam should be able to break 1.5k+ on the mobs there, they all con very low, hell I can break the 1.3k Jin on the mobs there.

Although all these nice weaponskill damages are good and can help your parse, its still DoT that makes or breaks the cannon, if you can't do jack shit between weapon skills then you are a waste of a slot and only holding the party back from its full potential.

 

[neophytal]

he has a point

when was the last time you saw a pimped out war/nin/mnk seek?

i seek occasionally if im bored... ;(

 

[Firestreak]

My nin seeks and I'm pretty pimped out.

I think the real question is: How often do you see a pimped out DRG? Most people who play DRG don't pimp themselves out, because people who are concerned with being the very best aren't the type of people to play DRG(usually). People who play WAR tend to be more focused on exp, hence they picked WAR, therefore more often have good gear. The only really good DRGs seem to be doing it for the principle of showing DRG can be a good DD which is a minority.

 

[Romper]

There is a linkshell named Loldrg. I was wondering why anyone would name their linkshell that. its like your laughing at yourself.

He isn't even a DRG. He's an lolWHM that isn't 75.

 

[Eleibfrid]

Eeeee, should see my DRG in action.

 

[phishn]

This post wins the thread.

Agreed

"With Hasso now, a well equipped sam can pull off sam/nin and pull just as much weight as a similarly equipped and merited nin/war, mnk/nin or war/nin."

+10 str, +10 acc, +10% attack speed increase = Hasso at level 75. Why did SE give SAM this ability? To give SAM a role in TP Cannon style parties. SAM's role got lost once Manaburn's, and TP Cannons came about. SAM's were meant to be damage enablers, skillchaining frequently for the Magic Bursts.